I understand your point of why you would bunch the together, not being able to have a job/pay that we want is a serious issue independently of skills visas etc. I have experienced both sides of the issue. However, I think that even when the impact on individuals might appear similar the economical background and moral issues are not the same from my point of view.My bad I thought the thread was about the morality of H1B visas in regards to how they prevent American workers from holding jobs. I thought that if we are talking about unjust visas then the H2A and H2B visas which rob thousands of Americans of jobs were on topic.
fair pointI understand your point of why you would bunch the together, not being able to have a job/pay that we want is a serious issue independently of skills visas etc. I have experienced both sides of the issue. However, I think that even when the impact on individuals might appear similar the economical background and moral issues are not the same from my point of view.
You are correct, people competing in the fields of H1B visas usually do not really compete locally but globally. People that compete in the field of the H2 visas compete only at a local level and it is here in the USA. I do not call H2 jobs menial because while the might lack the requirement for some level of knowledge they do not lack dignity. In my opinion the H2 visa might be a bigger moral issues because people are forced in a competition while in the case of the H1 people choose the competition through their career choices.Oh here are the differences:
ehow.com/info_8318761_differences-between-h1b-h2b.html
So basicly the H1B = Scientists, Researchers, Models while H2B = Waiters, Maids, Sea Food processors (basically more menial labor jobs which any american could perform.)
I agree with you that undocumented worker stories are prone to more coverage because they are politicly provocative. Also the undocumented are highly exploitable as they are completely ignorant of their rights as people in the US ( such as the right to enforce contract claims in court). So not only do they tend get ripped off, but they tend to get really really ripped off. This makes for a better story as there is more stuff to be outraged about.I did not express myself well. There are no politically popular or “politically correct” sad stories relating to H1B. Sad news stories relating to immigration are all pretty much focused on illegal immigrants because doing so has political effectiveness. Telling the story of some native-born, highly skilled male, particularly if he’s white and non-union, being replaced by an H1B worker just doesn’t have that political punch.
This administration (and therefore the media) has pretty much written off that demographic.
H1B does include master and Phd’s but is also used for bachelor degrees. This thread is about H1B’s but all threads start to unravel to include different subjects.I see what you are saying, and that it is one of the reasons why I rather pay more hoping to purchase something that is more “local”. Even when it comes to buy the same local goods I still rather shop at a store that sells only local vs. a store that gives preference to cheaper but imported goods.
I was confused by your statement because you started talking about H1B visas and those are for highly skilled workers, usually Master degrees and PhDs.
BINGO! I believe 99 out of 100 senators voted in favor of the H1B.. The ones capitalizing on the availability of undocumented and H1B workers are the employers. They will continue to enjoy this advantage because they will always be able to make bigger campaign contributions then American non union professionals (or undocumented workers)
I think that you are mixing a lot of anecdotal evidence, with emotional reactions, and real issues. That does not make it for a solid argument.H1B does include master and Phd’s but is also used for bachelor degrees. This thread is about H1B’s but all threads start to unravel to include different subjects.
The idea that all H1B visa holders are highly educated and have unique skills is a myth, a myth big business loves to exploit. Workplaces I have experience with are using H1B to fill lab positions that could be filled by Americans. A project I worked on had an end of year deadline and all the workers that come in on Saturday and Sunday during the Christmas/ New Year season were Americans. None of the H1B lab people put in one hour of overtime. All of the Americans who worked the overtime were let go at the end of the project and all of the foreigners in the lab were not.
Many Americans do have advanced degrees and as long as students see that jobs will just be handed to foreigners I doubt if many will pursue advanced degrees.
My point is that there are Americans with 4 year degrees who can do jobs and we do not have to import workers to do lab work. I do believe that there should be much stricter requirements for importing H1B workers.I think that you are mixing a lot of anecdotal evidence, with emotional reactions, and real issues. That does not make it for a solid argument.
First let us look at the requirements, you said that having a unique skill is a myth.
1- If you say that having a college degree is not a highly skilled job then the requirement for the H1B visas should be changed and college graduates should not consider themselves as very marketable employees even if they spent money and time in college. They should not also expect significantly higher salaries respect to the rest of the population even if they incurred a lot of expenses to get a degree and they should expect only local and not global competition.
2- If you say that a college degree gives skills that should yield significantly higher salaries respect to the rest of the population, then it becomes a global issue and not only a local one.
Approximately 34% of Americans have a bachelor degree and in my opinion they are not highly skilled and probably they cannot compete globally but only locally so I think that the requirements for H1B visas should be changed.
A lot of young Americans do not pursue higher degrees because the effort does not yield the results that they want. The relation between effort and results is not a linear function and often it is a very high risk proposition. I think that a lot is a cultural issue, here in the USA most of the people do not see higher level education as a goal in itself by simply as a sure way to a financially improved lifestyle, and that to me is a risky proposition because there are to many other unknown and uncontrollable variables in action.
My problem is that I do not understand the reasoning that just because a job could be filled by and American then it should automatically be filled by an American.
I do not think it is right to replace the employee at all. I brought this subject up because of the Bishop’s statements and opinions on immigration, welcoming the stranger ect…Again, what is the moral issue here? Am I missing something? I would not be happen being terminated at training my replacement, but I do not see where the morality of this is an issue. Would it be different, more moral, if the replacement was a twenty something kid straight out of college.
Perhaps because it is not a matter of morals?I can find no issue from them on American worker’s being displaced by H1B workers.
It is a social justice issue as much as the Arizona immigration law and illegal immigration ect. is. The Bishops have spoken extensively on the social welfare of certain groups of people but I have not seen anything about the American worker being negatively affected by visa programs.Perhaps because it is not a matter of morals?
I would disagree that illegals are ignorant of their rights. I have known a fair number of them, and oftentimes they know our system better than most of us do. Many also know what makes a good story, and they know how and to whom to sell it. They’re not children, after all.I agree with you that undocumented worker stories are prone to more coverage because they are politicly provocative. Also the undocumented are highly exploitable as they are completely ignorant of their rights as people in the US ( such as the right to enforce contract claims in court). So not only do they tend get ripped off, but they tend to get really really ripped off. This makes for a better story as there is more stuff to be outraged about.
I would only say that the political rhetoric behind parading immigration horror stories in an attempt to sway public policy is not as strong as you may think. The undocumented immigrants have no say in how we make our laws. The ones capitalizing on the availability of undocumented and H1B workers are the employers. They will continue to enjoy this advantage because they will always be able to make bigger campaign contributions then American non union professionals (or undocumented workers)