H1N1 and the Eastern Churches

[prodromos]

there is nothing in scripture or tradition that indicates that the eucharist prevents against disease.

In the Orthodox church we receive Christ’s Body and Blood from a spoon which is dipped back into the cup after being placed in each communicant’s mouth. At the end of the liturgy the priest consumes what is left in the cup.
In the history of the Church there has never been a case recorded of a priest becoming ill.

 

[Dan-Man916]

In the history of the Church there has never been a case recorded of a priest becoming ill.

I’m not sure how one could really validate such a claim either way.
How can anyone hope to know that every year during the flu season, no priest ever has ever contracted the flu, cold, etc. from a spread of germs either from using a common spoon or elsewhere?

I am not trying to take anything away from the real presence. I simply don’t see how one can make this connection, scientifically. Neither am I trying to question the piety of anyone. I just don’t see why anyone would be accused of little faith in recognizing that the spiritual reality of the consecrated gifts doesn’t automatically turn into a preventative of the transmission of germs that could cause an illness.

If a physical phenomenon is observed, such as you have stated, then this physical phenomenon should be scientifically verifiable and demonstrable. We need not be asked to trust something only on faith when the natural sciences can also compliment these.

 

[John_Larocque]

Do you actually think that Jesus would allow these germs to infect those who receive His Body and Blood?

No. But I’m not the one coming up with these policies. Not much can be really done about that.

 

[mardukm]

I believe the main effect of the Eucharist is spiritual, not physical.

However, this does not mean the Eucharist cannot have valid physical effects. I have read of Saints in the Latin Church who lived on nothing but daily Eucharist.

If one expects in faith that God will protect you from diseases when communing, I believe it will come to pass. If one expects something different in faith, such as only spiritual benefits, then that will also come to pass.

So it’s not about the level of faith, but rather about what one expects in faith.

If a person prays in faith that he/she gets a car and receives it, should we go around thinking that the faith of that person is greater than the Christian who did not receive a car? Or perhaps that other Christian simply did not have the same expectation in faith?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[josephdaniel29]

Why are some being accused of little faith?
The precious body and blood are most certainly present, but that doesn’t mean that any germs or viruses that are transferred onto the spoon from previous communicants are somehow removed by the holy mysteries.

I don’t think it has anything to do with a lack faith but this discussion certainly puts in sharp contrast the differences between the Latin and Orthodox mindset.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[John_Larocque]

I don’t think it has anything to do with a lack faith but this discussion certainly puts in sharp contrast the differences between the Latin and Orthodox mindset.

That’s a bit of a stretch. In my case - as someone currently “Latin”, I was not happy with what they were doing and privately emailed an EC church online who suggested that I start a threat at the other forum to solicit opinions. This was actually the first time I received communion in an EC church so it was a bit of a shock. I then asked around at another parish, and found out why some parishes in Toronto are doing this and that it was being discussed at the diocesan level (with each parish deciding what it would do). I am confident St. Elias would be among the last parishes to react to this.

If I had my way, none of these churches (RCC, EC or otherwise) would do nothing different than they were doing before we even heard of H1N1. But as I said above, as a layperson I can’t do anything about it, so I made up my mind not to express any more anxiety about this than I already did, and just report on what happened. But it’s not a happy situation. And as I said earlier, I know my parents aren’t thrilled with the possibility of not receiving on the tongue.

 

[Robertwilliam]

Do you actually think that Jesus would allow these germs to infect those who receive His Body and Blood?

I agree, Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, He will heal us from ALL sickness.

 

[Seamus_L]

Amen !

 

[Robertwilliam]

Amen !

The difference between western and eastern mindsets
The west says, I need scientific logical EXPLAINATIONS for something to be understood as true,i.e. The saints have to have verified miracles before we know if they were glorified in heaven,
The east just accepts that they lived a holy life.

 

[mardukm]

The difference between western and eastern mindsets
The west says, I need scientific logical EXPLAINATIONS for something to be understood as true,i.e. The saints have to have verified miracles before we know if they were glorified in heaven,
The east just accepts that they lived a holy life.

That’s not true. The purpose of Beatification/Canonization is simply to make an OFFICIAL recognition of a person’s sainthood for the purpose of Church-wide public veneration. There is nothing in the Catholic Church that prevents private devotion to saints. In fact, the process of Beatification/Canonization cannot exist without that prior private devotion to saints.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Robertwilliam]

That’s not true. The purpose of Beatification/Canonization is simply to make an OFFICIAL recognition of a person’s sainthood for the purpose of Church-wide public veneration. There is nothing in the Catholic Church that prevents private devotion to saints. In fact, the process of Beatification/Canonization cannot exist without that prior private devotion to saints.

Blessings,
Marduk

Sorry, I was only using the example of the saints to show the TENDENCY of the west to require a rational explaination for the truth to be understood in the rational mind of man. Another example is trying to explain HOW the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. The eastern mind needs no explaination, we just know the Holy Spirit changes the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord, without any explaination about HOW it happens. Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Robertwilliam,

Sorry, I was only using the example of the saints to show the TENDENCY of the west to require a rational explaination for the truth to be understood in the rational mind of man. Another example is trying to explain HOW the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. The eastern mind needs no explaination, we just know the Holy Spirit changes the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord, without any explaination about HOW it happens. Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me.

I agree with the boldened part, but I disagree, once again (sorry ) with your example, not so much the basis, but the explanation. I agree that Transubstantion was a fruit of the rational thinking of the West, but the definition does not actually explain the “HOW,” but merely the “WHAT.” It explains the “WHAT” in scholastic terms - “substance” and “accident” - but recognizes that the HOW is still very much a Mystery.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Seamus_L]

Actually Robertwilliam I;m a Traditional Latin Mass Catholic, and you’d be surprised how much we take on faith.

 

[Robertwilliam]

Dear brother Robertwilliam,

I agree with the boldened part, but I disagree, once again (sorry ) with your example, not so much the basis, but the explanation. I agree that Transubstantion was a fruit of the rational thinking of the West, but the definition does not actually explain the “HOW,” but merely the “WHAT.” It explains the “WHAT” in scholastic terms - “substance” and “accident” - but recognizes that the HOW is still very much a Mystery.

Blessings,
Marduk

I agree with you, same page, different paragraph.

 

[elizaveta]

From the Centers for Disease Control’s website.

“Flu viruses are spread mainly from person to person through coughing or sneezing by people with the flu. Sometimes people may become infected by touching something – such as a surface or object – with flu viruses on it and then touching their mouth or nose.”

Anyone who goes to Church during the flu season is going to come in contact with lots of the virus - you can’t avoid it. You inhale it whenever you breathe. You get it on your hands when you touch door handles, pew sides, pew books, shake hands, etc.

Virus transmission is not going to be significantly lowered by any measure to change the way communion is given. Even if the Orthodox decided to not use the spoon and commune the way Catholics do, the bread would still be covered with the virus from the air that everyone coming to communion exhales. Not to mention that the priest touches the same doors etc you do and then handles the bread.

That’s why the CDC recommends that people don’t go to public places, like Churches, during a flu epidemic. And that includes Churches that don’t even have communion. That’s because any public gathering of people in an enclosed space transmits the virus.

You can’t protect yourself from a virus by changing how communion is given. Only by avoiding the places where communion is given.

 

[Robertwilliam]

From the Centers for Disease Control’s website.

“Flu viruses are spread mainly from person to person through coughing or sneezing by people with the flu. Sometimes people may become infected by touching something – such as a surface or object – with flu viruses on it and then touching their mouth or nose.”

Anyone who goes to Church during the flu season is going to come in contact with lots of the virus - you can’t avoid it. You inhale it whenever you breathe. You get it on your hands when you touch door handles, pew sides, pew books, shake hands, etc.

Virus transmission is not going to be significantly lowered by any measure to change the way communion is given. Even if the Orthodox decided to not use the spoon and commune the way Catholics do, the bread would still be covered with the virus from the air that everyone coming to communion exhales. Not to mention that the priest touches the same doors etc you do and then handles the bread.

That’s why the CDC recommends that people don’t go to public places, like Churches, during a flu epidemic. And that includes Churches that don’t even have communion. That’s because any public gathering of people in an enclosed space transmits the virus.

You can’t protect yourself from a virus by changing how communion is given. Only by avoiding the places where communion is given.

That is why I do not worry about receiving communion with the spoon, besides, the alchohol kills any germs on the spoon. I will receive our Lord in faith, and IF I do catch the flu, I will accept it , the main thing is to receive the Lord in Holy Communion.

 

[elizaveta]

That is why I do not worry about receiving communion with the spoon, besides, the alchohol kills any germs on the spoon. I will receive our Lord in faith, and IF I do catch the flu, I will accept it , the main thing is to receive the Lord in Holy Communion.

Yep there is the alcohol, not to mention the boiling water!

I’ve really never worried about it either. I personally don’t think that the Body of Christ could be a vehicle for disease transmission. That’s just my personal opinion, but it seems to be validated by my observations. Of course, I’d be really reluctant to spend and hour and a half in a badly ventilated room with a large group of coughing, sneezing sick people!

 

[Robertwilliam]

Yep there is the alcohol, not to mention the boiling water!

I’ve really never worried about it either. I personally don’t think that the Body of Christ could be a vehicle for disease transmission. That’s just my personal opinion, but it seems to be validated by my observations. Of course, I’d be really reluctant to spend and hour and a half in a badly ventilated room with a large group of coughing, sneezing sick people!

get ready to hold your breath, or as the Moody Blues said: “Breathe Deep…”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oh ye of little faith, This is the precious Body and Blood of Jesus you are talking about. I can’t understand why any body would fear a germ. GET REAL. The Blood of Christ will protect you from any thing.

POI - a Latin American bishop was poisoned at Mass with a Host. The reason: poison is not affected by the Consecration. Instead of poisoned bread, one has a poisoned Eucharistic Body in its place.​

 

[Cluny]

POI - a Latin American bishop was poisoned at Mass with a Host. The reason: poison is not affected by the Consecration. Instead of poisoned bread, one has a poisoned Eucharistic Body in its place.​

This was not valid matter, as there’s no bread recipe that contains poison.