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Jennifer_G
Guest
Right. That’s kind of what I was wondering how to do that.
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Gail_OCDS
Guest
Generally it should be noted by the order in their pamphlets or websites.
If it is not prominently posted it could be they are an offshoot of a main order.
Inquiries can also be made through the diocesan office for vocations.
M
mercygate
Guest
Exactly what I meant when I said you have to be very careful with Carmelites. The Carmelite spirituality is extremely attractive and compelling, and people latch onto it without being connected to it (lots of Franciscan “funny” groups like that, too).
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
This is a ‘sad argument’ to me and causing division in the one area of The Church above all perhaps that should be an example of unity to all i.e. religious life. It seems to me that one side can be just as argumentative and divisive - sad and saddening - as the other when the habit ideally stands for and ideally should ‘speak’ of simplicity and humility amongst other things.
Room for all on this 'ere ship, to my mind:thumbsup: Diversity in unity and Unity in diversity. Or as St. Augustine said, in non essentials, freedom…in essentials, unity…and in all things - Love.
If one is attracted by the habit and in discernment, then I would simply be disinterested in non habit wearing communities.
Blessings…Barb
Room for all on this 'ere ship, to my mind:thumbsup: Diversity in unity and Unity in diversity. Or as St. Augustine said, in non essentials, freedom…in essentials, unity…and in all things - Love.
If one is attracted by the habit and in discernment, then I would simply be disinterested in non habit wearing communities.
Blessings…Barb
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tGette
Guest
I feel like:
No habits = Ashamed of their faith
(I know that it is not the nicest statement, but it feels that way. Please rebuke me if I am out of line!)
Does the habit not represent that they are married to the Church and a spouse of our Lord?
God bless these Sisters for living for our Lord, but may He grace them with wanting to let what they experience on the inside be shown on the outside!
No habits = Ashamed of their faith
(I know that it is not the nicest statement, but it feels that way. Please rebuke me if I am out of line!)
Does the habit not represent that they are married to the Church and a spouse of our Lord?
God bless these Sisters for living for our Lord, but may He grace them with wanting to let what they experience on the inside be shown on the outside!
M
mercygate
Guest
I like what Rosalind Moss said about this at the EWTN Family Celebration a couple of weeks ago. She said, when you wear a habit, whatever people think about God, that HAVE to think about God.
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tGette
Guest
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daughterofmary
Guest
The Baltimore Carmelites are in communion with Rome, in that they are recognized as not being out of communion. I really won’t begin to think about if they actually are faithful to Rome. They actually do have a really beautiful history. They were the first Carmelite monastery in the United States, and a very large amount of Carmelite monasteries in the United States are daughters of Baltimore. Very sad that this has happened to them.
They are one of the most… well it is just disappointing. We must pray for these sisters. St. Teresa of Avila, pray for us. May all of your daughters live the life faithfully that God gave to you, which would lead them to the heights of sanctity.
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Free_Radical
Guest
I am saddened to read this thread. I know a few religious sisters who do not wear habits and they have an awe-inspiring devotion to Christ. Their personal holiness, joyfulness, and witness to the Gospel is their habit. While I also respect and admire the sisters who choose to wear habits, it disturbs me that people would put down and make insinuations about sisters who don’t. :tsktsk:
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tGette
Guest
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daughterofmary
Guest
I know a sister as well who does not wear a habit, but who I consider a living saint. However, we have to understand:
The fact of the matter is that many, many communities who have the characteristic of not wearing a habit also tend to be into new age spirituality and dribble in heresy. It is the truth, and it has been experienced by so many. We really can’t hold it against anyone if they are leery of sisters who don’t wear habits. What saddens me in reading this thread is to see all the scandal that has been given and all the hurt experienced due to some sisters who teach heresy and have the characteristic of not wearing a habit. They make it very difficult for the faithful to trust a religious who does not wear the habit.
We can’t blame the child who has been burned by the iron for not wanting to go near the iron again.
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Salonika
Guest
Well put Free Radical.
Don’t think this situation is an exception to the usual advice “don’t judge a book by its cover” but go inside and judge by its content.
In my view judging only on the basis of whether a religious wears a habit or not is as unjust as judging a lay person ONLY by what they wear to mass.
Also the habit/no habit can involve a false dichotmy - does habit = traditional habit only. When does modfied habit = no habit.
T
tGette
Guest
This is also a wonderful point!
Because…there are also most likely many Sisters who don the habit, who are not the holiest nor are they living saints on earth.
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daughterofmary
Guest
I appreciate both of your comments, however after what I’ve exprienced I won’t be going inside to judge the book. I’ve read the book in the past, and it caused me nothing but frustration and disappointment. It is like horror movies. I watched one when I was younger, and I know now I won’t ever be watching one again - no matter what it is about. Same genre. Same thing. I won’t be risking it.
I’ll probably continue to stay away from those sisters who do not wear the habit. I keep an open mind when I run into them, and I do not judge them individually, but when it comes to seeking them out generally or desiring to be involved in things with non-habited sisters, I will continue to avoid it. I find this both practical, reasonable, and good for - at least - my spiritual safety. There are just too many that do not wear the habit and are not faithful to the church.
As for the habited sisters, one just has to pray and discern. Not even they all the time are faithful to the Church - it depends on the community.
K
KaylaP
Guest
Personally, as someone who is discerning, I would not be attracted to a community that does not wear a habit. In fact, the more traditional the habit, the more attractive the community to me. The community I’m going to be making my aspirancy with wear the full habit, headgear, and everything. Their veil is very long, coming almst to their knees.
I know it is possible that a community could be very devout and not wear a habit. BUT often it doesnt work out that way, and I think, my own personal opinion, is that the witness of sisters who don’t wear habits is lacking in something.
Plus I think the fact that the whole rejection of the habit phenomenon is associated with feminism says plenty.
I know it is possible that a community could be very devout and not wear a habit. BUT often it doesnt work out that way, and I think, my own personal opinion, is that the witness of sisters who don’t wear habits is lacking in something.
Plus I think the fact that the whole rejection of the habit phenomenon is associated with feminism says plenty.
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Salonika
Guest
I’m curious (not changing the topic) - do you mean the traditional habit as it was when the order was founded made of the materials of the time? Would a habit in the same style made of modern materials eg that breathe (especially if you are living in a hot climate) and able to washed and worn be acceptable.
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JReducation
Guest
It is equally important to recall that Vatican II called all religious and secular institutes to recover the charism of their founders. Not all of the founders had a habit in mind.
If we examine the Franciscan Family, we did not wear a habit until the early 1500s. Our tunic was of many colours. It was worn out of love for our holy father Francis, who wore such a tunic. In the rule the habit is not very specific. Francis quickly mentions two tunics, one with a hood and one without. The original tunic of which Francis wrote disappeared in 1528 and was replaced by the Franciscan habit that we know today. There was never an official habit until 1529… The focus was always on the Gospel life. The same applied to Franciscan women. There is no mention in the rule of St. Clare of a specific religious habit.
When St. Vincent de Paul founded the Daughters of Charity he did not want them to be religious. To this day, the Daughters of Charity and the Sisters of Charity are NOT religious.
St. Vincent did not want Louise de Marillac to wear a habit. That’s why the Daughters of Charity never wore a veil and St. Elizabeth Ann Seton continued to wear her widows garb after she became a Sister of Charity. In their time, Louise de Marillac and Elizabeth Ann Seton did not stand out as religious. As time passed their daughters adopted their form of dress out of love for them.
When Mother Teresa was a nun she wore a habit. When she was dispensed from her order, she adopted the simple dress of Indian women. She wrote in her letter to the local bishop that Christ had called her to start an Indian Society in which the sisters would be Indian (not by birth, but by adoption). When she first appeared on the street as a Missionary of Charity, no one could tell that she was a sister. Even today, people incorrectly refer to the Missionaries of Charity as Mother Teresa’s nuns. They are not nuns. They are a society, not a religious order. Gradually they spread beyond the borders of India and took with them the dress of Indian women. After more than 50 years, their dress has become a habit as in habitual form of dress for them.
As we can see there are religious and secular men and women, who have been great saints who did not wear a habit, but the dress of their time and circumstance. Who would question the holiness of St. Louise de Marillac, Mother Teresa, St. Clare or many others.
You then have secular religious orders who had a habit, such as the Lay Dominicans. St. Catherine of Siena was a Lay Dominican. St. Teresa of Avila also had a formal habit.
What makes our religious, men and women, holy is their prayer, community life and their investment in living the Gospel.
It has been my experience that those congregations and orders who have lost vocations and are at the point of extinction are those who stopped living community life, where community life was replaced by ministry. What keeps other institutes very successful is their community life, with or without habit. Through community life people are inspired by each other, held accountable for their mistakes and encouraged through a common prayer life and commony apostolate.
In part, the laity has done much to destroy community life in many religious institutes and even in secular institutes. The laity has placed demands and expectations on religious and secular institutes to be ministered to by their members. As the demands of ministry increase, the life in community decreases, habit or not.
In our parish we have Capuchin Franciscan Friars. When they first came the laity was so used to secular priests that hey were very uncomfortable with some of the qualities that made the Capuchins religious. The bishop asked for three priests and the Order gave the parish seven friars. It placed a condition on the diocese that it had to accept seven friars (3 priests and 4 non clerical). The Order also insisted that one the Lay Brothers and not the Pastor be the Superior. The Pastor answers to a Lay Brother. The Order insisted that the friars’ schedule not be compromised by parish service. Therefore the friars are never available during times of prayer, meals, recreation, when they have to do housework such as laundry, cooking, dishes or communtiy meetings. They close the parish twice ayear to go on retreat as a community and to go to the Motherhouse to be with their brothers.
The laity in the parish did not like calling a Lay Brother “Father Superior” and the Pastor and other priests “Brother”. They objected to the fact that the laity has to run all the ministries of the parish, because the friars leave at 4:00 to return to the enclosure.
Gradually, the holiness of these men grew on the laity. Four years later, there are seven masses every Sunday with about 1,000 people at each mass, three priests hearing confessions every Saturday with lines that are an hour long and up to three hours at the beginning of Advent and Lent. There are more than 50 ministries in the parish, all run by lay people, but contaminated by the spirit of St. Francis.
These friars wear a habit, but many people found their community life unacceptable. Gradually, it has been their strong commitment to community life that has inspired the laity, their love of St. Francis has led the laity to learn about Francis and to engage in ministry with the Franciscan spirit.
This is an example of one of many communities in the Church that have turned lives around by their life in community and the example that people see in a life consecrated to the evangelical counsels and brotherhood or sisterhood.
The habit, in this case, is part of the life in brotherhood. Those communities, male or female, who have sacrificed community life for the apostolate have lost vocations, because it is very difficult to embrace the Gospel without the support of family.
Fraternally,
JR
If we examine the Franciscan Family, we did not wear a habit until the early 1500s. Our tunic was of many colours. It was worn out of love for our holy father Francis, who wore such a tunic. In the rule the habit is not very specific. Francis quickly mentions two tunics, one with a hood and one without. The original tunic of which Francis wrote disappeared in 1528 and was replaced by the Franciscan habit that we know today. There was never an official habit until 1529… The focus was always on the Gospel life. The same applied to Franciscan women. There is no mention in the rule of St. Clare of a specific religious habit.
When St. Vincent de Paul founded the Daughters of Charity he did not want them to be religious. To this day, the Daughters of Charity and the Sisters of Charity are NOT religious.
St. Vincent did not want Louise de Marillac to wear a habit. That’s why the Daughters of Charity never wore a veil and St. Elizabeth Ann Seton continued to wear her widows garb after she became a Sister of Charity. In their time, Louise de Marillac and Elizabeth Ann Seton did not stand out as religious. As time passed their daughters adopted their form of dress out of love for them.
When Mother Teresa was a nun she wore a habit. When she was dispensed from her order, she adopted the simple dress of Indian women. She wrote in her letter to the local bishop that Christ had called her to start an Indian Society in which the sisters would be Indian (not by birth, but by adoption). When she first appeared on the street as a Missionary of Charity, no one could tell that she was a sister. Even today, people incorrectly refer to the Missionaries of Charity as Mother Teresa’s nuns. They are not nuns. They are a society, not a religious order. Gradually they spread beyond the borders of India and took with them the dress of Indian women. After more than 50 years, their dress has become a habit as in habitual form of dress for them.
As we can see there are religious and secular men and women, who have been great saints who did not wear a habit, but the dress of their time and circumstance. Who would question the holiness of St. Louise de Marillac, Mother Teresa, St. Clare or many others.
You then have secular religious orders who had a habit, such as the Lay Dominicans. St. Catherine of Siena was a Lay Dominican. St. Teresa of Avila also had a formal habit.
What makes our religious, men and women, holy is their prayer, community life and their investment in living the Gospel.
It has been my experience that those congregations and orders who have lost vocations and are at the point of extinction are those who stopped living community life, where community life was replaced by ministry. What keeps other institutes very successful is their community life, with or without habit. Through community life people are inspired by each other, held accountable for their mistakes and encouraged through a common prayer life and commony apostolate.
In part, the laity has done much to destroy community life in many religious institutes and even in secular institutes. The laity has placed demands and expectations on religious and secular institutes to be ministered to by their members. As the demands of ministry increase, the life in community decreases, habit or not.
In our parish we have Capuchin Franciscan Friars. When they first came the laity was so used to secular priests that hey were very uncomfortable with some of the qualities that made the Capuchins religious. The bishop asked for three priests and the Order gave the parish seven friars. It placed a condition on the diocese that it had to accept seven friars (3 priests and 4 non clerical). The Order also insisted that one the Lay Brothers and not the Pastor be the Superior. The Pastor answers to a Lay Brother. The Order insisted that the friars’ schedule not be compromised by parish service. Therefore the friars are never available during times of prayer, meals, recreation, when they have to do housework such as laundry, cooking, dishes or communtiy meetings. They close the parish twice ayear to go on retreat as a community and to go to the Motherhouse to be with their brothers.
The laity in the parish did not like calling a Lay Brother “Father Superior” and the Pastor and other priests “Brother”. They objected to the fact that the laity has to run all the ministries of the parish, because the friars leave at 4:00 to return to the enclosure.
Gradually, the holiness of these men grew on the laity. Four years later, there are seven masses every Sunday with about 1,000 people at each mass, three priests hearing confessions every Saturday with lines that are an hour long and up to three hours at the beginning of Advent and Lent. There are more than 50 ministries in the parish, all run by lay people, but contaminated by the spirit of St. Francis.
These friars wear a habit, but many people found their community life unacceptable. Gradually, it has been their strong commitment to community life that has inspired the laity, their love of St. Francis has led the laity to learn about Francis and to engage in ministry with the Franciscan spirit.
This is an example of one of many communities in the Church that have turned lives around by their life in community and the example that people see in a life consecrated to the evangelical counsels and brotherhood or sisterhood.
The habit, in this case, is part of the life in brotherhood. Those communities, male or female, who have sacrificed community life for the apostolate have lost vocations, because it is very difficult to embrace the Gospel without the support of family.
Fraternally,
JR
G
Gardenman
Guest
This issue of habit vs. no habit will obviously never be fully resolved, but the numbers speak for themselves: Habited communities are drawing the most vocations. The decline in vocations to the non habited communities is apparent. They are dwindling and show little hope of surviving.
These “new age” nuns/sisters are a mockery to the faith as far as I’m concerned. These insane dances during mass, praying to the cosmos etc. is just stupidity and an insult to the faith.
I’ve seen nuns dressed so horribly and inappropriately that it makes me ashamed. What really gets me are these nuns who “on special occassions” wear a veil …this is just ridiculous. You either are a nun 24/7 (or a monk, brother, whatever…) and you dress and act accordingly. A vocation isn’t a part time gig. When was the last time anyone saw habited religious frolicking around in the sanctuary doing some lame dance?
Not wearing a habit, and sticking to the mandates of Vatican II is refusing to be a witness to the faith. The habit DOES make an enormous difference, whether people choose to accept it or not. It is a visual reminder to the wearer as well as the observer. It’s intent is to provide visual witness to the faith and the commitment made, the separation of ones self from the trappings of secular life, and yet being IN the world, but not OF the world. It should be worn with the realization and testimony that you have dedicated your life to the service of our Lord and are willing to proclaim it at all times.
IF you have taken vows as a religious, you should be proud of your faith and proclaim your love of God by wearing the habit which was adopted by the founder of the community to which you belong. Some miniscule, obscure pin, attached to your shirt collar is going to be lost on most people.
Religious should look and act like what they are and not be afraid to be identified as such. Refusal to be a visual witness to the faith is a cop out.
The habit “worked” for hundreds of years. Look what has happened to vocations since it was abandoned. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
These “new age” nuns/sisters are a mockery to the faith as far as I’m concerned. These insane dances during mass, praying to the cosmos etc. is just stupidity and an insult to the faith.
I’ve seen nuns dressed so horribly and inappropriately that it makes me ashamed. What really gets me are these nuns who “on special occassions” wear a veil …this is just ridiculous. You either are a nun 24/7 (or a monk, brother, whatever…) and you dress and act accordingly. A vocation isn’t a part time gig. When was the last time anyone saw habited religious frolicking around in the sanctuary doing some lame dance?
Not wearing a habit, and sticking to the mandates of Vatican II is refusing to be a witness to the faith. The habit DOES make an enormous difference, whether people choose to accept it or not. It is a visual reminder to the wearer as well as the observer. It’s intent is to provide visual witness to the faith and the commitment made, the separation of ones self from the trappings of secular life, and yet being IN the world, but not OF the world. It should be worn with the realization and testimony that you have dedicated your life to the service of our Lord and are willing to proclaim it at all times.
IF you have taken vows as a religious, you should be proud of your faith and proclaim your love of God by wearing the habit which was adopted by the founder of the community to which you belong. Some miniscule, obscure pin, attached to your shirt collar is going to be lost on most people.
Religious should look and act like what they are and not be afraid to be identified as such. Refusal to be a visual witness to the faith is a cop out.
The habit “worked” for hundreds of years. Look what has happened to vocations since it was abandoned. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
C
CarmeliteGirl25
Guest
Baltimore Carmel stemmed from Port Tobacco Carmel. Port Tobacco was the first Carmelite (and religious) foundation in the US. They still wear the full traditional Carmelite habit too.The Baltimore Carmelites are in communion with Rome, in that they are recognized as not being out of communion. I really won’t begin to think about if they actually are faithful to Rome. They actually do have a really beautiful history. They were the first Carmelite monastery in the United States, and a very large amount of Carmelite monasteries in the United States are daughters of Baltimore. Very sad that this has happened to them.
C
CarmeliteGirl25
Guest
It was not my intent to put down anyone. I was simply stating a point that the sister in the group was putting down those who want to wear habits. She doesn’t believe that people who do wear them are doing it for Christ’s ministry, but for the praise and recognition. I don’t know a single sister in the habit who just does it for that.
Also, I wanted to make it clear to please read my first post. I didn’t want to pigeonhole anyone because not all of the sisters who don’t wear habits are unfaithful. I actually met one at Church (a Sister of Mercy) who didn’t wear one and she was very Catholic.
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