Habits vs. No Habits

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czechestowa;7838900:
Some of the best arguments I have heard about wearing the habit have come from Archbishop Fulton Sheen. It would take to much time to go in to them all here but one story im reminded of here is that of a nun without a habit who was kidnapped in San Francisco by two men who told her they were going to rape her. She told them she was a nun they said to her we dont believe you. She said to them then ring up my school. So they rang up her school. The school confirmed what she said. So they ran a knife down her back. and made the sign of the cross on it. And they said to her ‘just so we’ll know the next time we see you’ Bishop Fulton sheen commenting on this says ‘The world wont let you forget your a religious’.
You are right in saying a religious should be different this is what the word holiness means. It means ‘set apart’.
Try to get hold of some of Archbishop fulton sheens tapes or cds they are well worth listening to.
May God bless you and guide you in your choice of life for him.
I don’t think that one should ever conceive a habit as some kind of shield against the evils of the world. A habit is part of a tradition.

I wear a habit, because it’s part of the Franciscan tradition for the men to wear a tunic with a hood and a cincture around the waste. However, interestingly enough, St. Clare did not bind Franciscan women to habits. She was rather flexible on that point. She did write about a habit, but then added that the superior had the right and obligation to decide what the sisters were to wear and that she (the superior of the house, not Clare) should consider, individual persons, climate, customs, work and what was practical. This was pretty revolutionary for the 13th century. Here is this young Abbess telling the superiors of her daughter houses, “Our habit is to be a tunic with a chord and a veil. But, if you think it’s better to wear something else, because of persons, climate, customs, practicality and the nature of your work, you’re free to make that call.”

What we have a rather interesting scenario. Franciscan men were expected to wear the tunic, hood and chord. Franciscan women were encouraged to wear it, but were given explicit permission not to wear it. What I always found most interesting in Clare’s writing is that she includes the consideration of persons. In other words, the superior was to take into consideration what the sisters wanted to wear or not wear. To this day the Franciscan women come in all manner of dress. Franciscan men have a lot of variations on the same theme, a tunic, with a cowl and a chord. We have variations is color, length, size of the cowl, cut, style – some are more modern than others. For example the Third Order Regular Franciscan Friars wear a very French looking habit. The Conventual Franciscan Friars wear a habit that looks very much like the Augustinian habit, but with a chord instead of a belt. The Observant Franciscans (OFM) wear the most popular Franciscan habit, because they are the largest Franciscan obedience. Yet, their habit is not the original design. The Franciscans of the Renewal wear the habit the most closely resembles the original habit worn by Francis. Their habit is long to the floor. Francis’ habit was knee-length.

My own brothers, we wear a knee-length habit for work, but we wear trousers, which is not allowed by the rule. You’re not supposed to wear anything under the habit. Most friars do not wear anything under it, unless it’s very cold or they’re older men who get sick very easily. Even then, there are variations on the tradition. You try to stay as close as possible, always keeping in mind the vision of the founder. As I said, Franciscan women, keeping in mind Clare’s vision, run the spectrum from no habit to a very Carmelite looking habit as worn by the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, which is very far from the habit worn by St. Clare. The good thing is that when Mother Angelica and St. Clare meet, St. Clare will not say a word about the habit, because Clare gave Mother Angelica permission to use her discretion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m discerning a vocation and for me, a habit seems very tertiary to the mission and the community. I’ve seen some ugly comments from some “Catholics” judging the mission and characters of those religious who wear plain clothes, uncharitable to say the least and vulgar if I had to be 100% honest. (not talking about any of the posts on here, but on another blog post I saw a few weeks ago…). I wonder how they would react to Jesus, if they were alive during his time on Earth? Hm. To say the least, its a shallow approach to religious life! 😦

Right now the order I feel the most called to is non-habited, since that is where the sisters who most inspired me and guided my faith came from. 😊 But in the end, how they are dressed is unimportant, and I am prepared to join any Order where God calls me to be. Their faith, their devotion, and their works of mercy–this is what inspires me so much to want to be a sister as soon as possible (as soon as I finish school and pay back my loans). I think a habited sister with the right faith can relate to a plain clothes person just as well and a plain clothes sister with the right faith can have an amazing religious presence just as well.
 
When the habits came off IN ORDER’S, we know longer see GOD in the world. Now we just see half naked people walking around. GOD is not seen in the world and SIN has won. LET GOD BE SEEN IN THE WORLD AGAIN,WEAR THE HABIT AND BE PROUD TO BE A RELIGIOUS FOR GOD:thumbsup:
 
When the habits came off IN ORDER’S, we know longer see GOD in the world. Now we just see half naked people walking around. GOD is not seen in the world and SIN has won. LET GOD BE SEEN IN THE WORLD AGAIN,WEAR THE HABIT AND BE PROUD TO BE A RELIGIOUS FOR GOD:thumbsup:
Ditto 👍

Religious priests, nuns, monks and even diocesan priests who wear their “black” with reverence, devotion and distinction - bring tears of joy to my eyes and the most humble prayers of thanks for their service.
 
Did anyone read what St. Eugene said to his Oblates, Bl. Mother Teresa said to her brothers and priests, or Bl. William Joseph Chaminade said to his brothers? They all said, “No habits.” These men were not given a choice. No habits means not cassocks, not Roman collars, not external identifiers, not even a crucifix.

Why do you folks want to take on these founders and impose on their sons what their founders banned?

I don’t get it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Did anyone read what St. Eugene said to his Oblates, Bl. Mother Teresa said to her brothers and priests, or Bl. William Joseph Chaminade said to his brothers? They all said, “No habits.” These men were not given a choice. No habits means not cassocks, not Roman collars, not external identifiers, not even a crucifix.

Why do you folks want to take on these founders and impose on their sons what their founders banned?

I don’t get it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
This is an old thread but it keeps getting resurrected. My views on the habit have changed since I previously wrote the original post under my former screen name. 🤷
 
It would be difficult for me to see a so-called nun out of habit. In my eyes, if you are a nun you wear the habit. End of story!

I love the habits of EWTN; The Nuns of Our Lady of the Angels Monastery 👍
 
It would be difficult for me to see a so-called nun out of habit. In my eyes, if you are a nun you wear the habit. End of story!

I love the habits of EWTN; The Nuns of Our Lady of the Angels Monastery 👍
The problem is that you cannot impose rules on religious that are contrary to the mind of their founders. You’re making a statement here that imposes something over the mind of the founders.

Take the example of the Poor Clares in Irondale. They choose to wear the Franch habit of the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration. This is not the habit that St. Clare leaves them. However, St. Clare leaves them with the freedom to choose to have or not have a habit. She never imposes on her daughters a statement as the one you make, “if you’re a nun, you wear the habit. End of story.” St. Francis would not have allowed that of her. She was to make suggestions as to how to go about deciding on a habit. But he demanded that she (Clare) not impose one. Each house chooses a habit according to criteria that Clare gives them.

The actual rule says:

**In fact let the Abbess, with discernment, provide them with clothing according to the diversity of persons, places, seasons and cold climates, as it shall seem expedient to her by necessity. **

As you can see, there is no prescribed habit for their order. The Abbess decides, but she must factor in

Diversity of persons – the wishes of the sisters and their personalities

Diversity of places – what is available and what is customary in each place

Diversity of season and cold climates – the habit is not to be unduly uncomfortable

For us to say that they must wear this form of clothing or that for of clothing is an intrusion on what the founder or foundress wants. We can’t do that. We don’t have the authority to do that. At best, we can say what the Church says, those institutes whose founders left them a habit should have one and those whose founders did not leave them a habit should follow the mind of the founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am getting feedback from a group on Facebook that is driving me crazy. It is based on the argument from a few non-habited sisters and I think they are being a little too pushy about the subject. Someone originally posted an article on non-habited orders amongst women religious. The problem does not lie in the article at all. But the sisters have stated some pretty upsetting things that I don’t like at all.

I am currently in discernment towards becoming a religious sister, but even if I wasn’t, I would consider the habit crucial for a variety of reasons. The most important being that it is an outward symbol of abandonment of the secular lifestyle for Christ. But I don’t mean that doesn’t mean there aren’t women religious in our society who don’t wear a habit and live a good Christian lifestyle; it simply means that if you are called, why can’t you abandon your dress?

Here are some quotes of the sisters with my thoughts:

**
Many told me outright: “You’re so much easier to talk to; I felt intimidated by that habit.”**
–Nobody can be intimidated by clothing. Clothing is inanimate. Perhaps they felt intimidated by the character within the habit? Many progressive sisters say, “A habit doesn’t make the sister.” But maybe some of those who wear it consider themselves above others in society. If this is the case, they should take a good look at themselves and see if their ego is inflated?

"To others it was a sign of entitlement… because I wore it, I deserved to be the first in line, to get out of paying a traffic ticket, and to have my opinion weigh a lot more than anyone else’s."
–How can just wearing a piece of clothing say this? I would definitely think this sister’s view of the habit is warped.

"I wanted to be a real sister to people, not just a Sister with privileges and power. (Notice the capital “S” and lower case “s”. )"
–The only time I have ever seen this distinction is between a name and a reference. Sisters in habits are no different than sisters in secular dress, in terms of holiness or privilege, and certainly not power. Take the Poor Clares for example. They live a hidden lifestyle full of poverty and simplicity. They do not seek power or greater privilege. They take example from St. Francis (and this sister who said the quoted statement is Franciscan, so she should understand this), who desired to be forgotten. He wore a habit, but he wanted to wear it simply to show that he had no clothing; that he had abandoned it for Christ’s ministry. I certainly think that’s commendable.

"Second hand clothing is what the poor wear today; not medieval clothing."
–The current habit is not medieval!

"So, naturally, when I hear younger folks today who feel adamant about wearing the habit, my first thought comes from my own experience and it’s "My gosh, are they seeking just to be recognized and thanked?"
–No one in the argument for habits said that they were seeking acknowledgment from anyone other than Christ. Some of her statements really make me angry because like this one they are stating that those who want to wear the habit are just doing it to be noticed. I think it is quite the contrary. I want to live a hidden life amongst either the Carmelites or the Poor Clares. No one will see me in my habit except the sisters and visitors. I will not be on the streets. But I still want to wear one simply because I want to surrender EVERYTHING to Christ, including my secular dress!

I don’t mean to imply that sisters without the habit are no less holy than ones who wear it, but I have discovered that most women without them embrace more New Age ideals.

Please give your feedback. I want to hear better arguments. My view will not change about wearing habits, but it could help others. Thank you, and God bless!🙂
Saint Anthony once spoke with a group of Friars that refused to wear the Habit. One of them greatly struggled with sexual sin. Saint Anthony convinced him to wear the Habit, and the moment he put it on and tied the cord around his waist, all temptations vanished.

Any order that refuses to wear the Habit is denying themselves of what they truly are. It is that of a married couple who refuse to wear their wedding rings, or a Priest who refuses to wear clerics. Don’t deny what you are, because what you are defines who you are. These supposed Nuns are ashamed to be what they are, so they hide from it. I know a group of Dominican Nuns close to me that refuse to wear the Habit. They are heavily feminist, they believe women should be Priests, when they say the Sign of the Cross they say “In the name of the Father, and of the Mother, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit”, they deny Mortal Sin, and the need for confession, in short, they’re commonly known as Domini-Wiccans. I have only noticed heretical things like this with orders that refuse to wear the Habit. This explains what the intent behind the refusal means: Orthodoxy is wrong, tradition is wrong, the Church is wrong. New-wave hippie lifestyle all the way. Anyone in an order like this (Or believes it is okay) should read Vatican II, which states that it is necessary for Orders to wear the Habit (Unless the Order itself is an Order of Priests who have chosen to wear clerics instead).

I too am discerning becoming a Friar or Priest, and if the order I’m looking into does not wear a Habit (Or wears an un-orthodox habit without reason) I immediately shove to the side and don’t heed any attention to for the exact reasons above.
 
Saint Anthony once spoke with a group of Friars that refused to wear the Habit. One of them greatly struggled with sexual sin. Saint Anthony convinced him to wear the Habit, and the moment he put it on and tied the cord around his waist, all temptations vanished.

Any order that refuses to wear the Habit is denying themselves of what they truly are. It is that of a married couple who refuse to wear their wedding rings, or a Priest who refuses to wear clerics. Don’t deny what you are, because what you are defines who you are. These supposed Nuns are ashamed to be what they are, so they hide from it. I know a group of Dominican Nuns close to me that refuse to wear the Habit. They are heavily feminist, they believe women should be Priests, when they say the Sign of the Cross they say “In the name of the Father, and of the Mother, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit”, they deny Mortal Sin, and the need for confession, in short, they’re commonly known as Domini-Wiccans. I have only noticed heretical things like this with orders that refuse to wear the Habit. This explains what the intent behind the refusal means: Orthodoxy is wrong, tradition is wrong, the Church is wrong. New-wave hippie lifestyle all the way. Anyone in an order like this (Or believes it is okay) should read Vatican II, which states that it is necessary for Orders to wear the Habit (Unless the Order itself is an Order of Priests who have chosen to wear clerics instead).

I too am discerning becoming a Friar or Priest, and if the order I’m looking into does not wear a Habit (Or wears an un-orthodox habit without reason) I immediately shove to the side and don’t heed any attention to for the exact reasons above.
Not all religious institutes have habits because their founders did not want them to have a habit.

What is an “un-orthodox” habit?
 
Not all religious institutes have habits because their founders did not want them to have a habit.

What is an “un-orthodox” habit?
I realize this. I have no problem with these orders. But I find it sad when orders that are supposed to (Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, etc.) don’t.

I’ve seen some… interesting habits. Half habits, habits with only a cowl, etc. Problem is, these orders usually have only one Habit in which they are supposed to wear. I don’t brush them off immediately, but if they have a reason such as “We don’t like the original. We find it Medieval”, I completely dismiss them.
 
Saint Anthony once spoke with a group of Friars that refused to wear the Habit. One of them greatly struggled with sexual sin. Saint Anthony convinced him to wear the Habit, and the moment he put it on and tied the cord around his waist, all temptations vanished.
You realize that this never happened right? This is a legend.
Any order that refuses to wear the Habit is denying themselves of what they truly are. It is that of a married couple who refuse to wear their wedding rings, or a Priest who refuses to wear clerics.
It’s not that black and white. First of all, there is much more to our life as religious than the habit. There are the vows, community life, prayer, service, silence, solitude, penance, conversion of manners, fidelity to the faith and much more. I prefer a religious who is obedient and who is kind to his brothers, even if he never wears a habit to one who disobeyes and is diffcult to live with, but wears a habit.

As to clericals, you do realize that the “clericals” as lay people call them are not so. They are worn by many brothers, including me. They are not worn by many priests, especially those who are monks. They don’t wear Roman collars.
These supposed Nuns are ashamed to be what they are, so they hide from it. I know a group of Dominican Nuns close to me that refuse to wear the Habit. They are heavily feminist, they believe women should be Priests, when they say the Sign of the Cross they say “In the name of the Father, and of the Mother, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit”, they deny Mortal Sin, and the need for confession, in short, they’re commonly known as Domini-Wiccans. I have only noticed heretical things like this with orders that refuse to wear the Habit.
You say that you want to be a Franciscan. You need to begin to treat your brothers and sisters as Francis did. Francis would never say “alleged nuns”. He had the most profound respect for clergy and religious, not matter how sinful. He not only loved and spoke well about those who were orthodox, but also about those who were heretical. As far as he was concerned, they were clergy and religious. They were his brothers and sisters. They were consecrated men and women.

In addition, he was a just man. The fact that a group of sisters that does not wear a habit embrace unorthodox practices, the converse is not true. Not every sister in secular clothes embraces such things. Francis was a wise, just and kind man. He would never assume that such a problem is to be found in every religious without a habit, nor would he assume that every religious in a habit is orthodox. Martin Luther was an Augustinian Canon and wore a habit.

Archbishop Lebefvre wore a cassock, but disobeyed a papal mandate.

Cardinal Wolsey wore clericals, but betrayed the papacy, lived with a woman and had two children.
This explains what the intent behind the refusal means: Orthodoxy is wrong, tradition is wrong, the Church is wrong. New-wave hippie lifestyle all the way. Anyone in an order like this (Or believes it is okay) should read Vatican II, which states that it is necessary for Orders to wear the Habit (Unless the Order itself is an Order of Priests who have chosen to wear clerics instead).
You’re paraphrasing Perfectae Caritatis. This is close, but not quite. Even an order of priests must wear its habit (ie. Dominicans, Carmelites, Augustinians)
I’ve seen some… interesting habits. Half habits, habits with only a cowl, etc. Problem is, these orders usually have only one Habit in which they are supposed to wear. I don’t brush them off immediately, but if they have a reason such as “We don’t like the original. We find it Medieval”, I completely dismiss them.
Would St. Francis dismiss them?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I realize this. I have no problem with these orders. But I find it sad when orders that are supposed to (Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, etc.) don’t.

I’ve seen some… interesting habits. Half habits, habits with only a cowl, etc. Problem is, these orders usually have only one Habit in which they are supposed to wear. I don’t brush them off immediately, but if they have a reason such as “We don’t like the original. We find it Medieval”, I completely dismiss them.
You are aware that the Carmelites have no founder and there is no habit stated within our rule.

The habit we wear today was designed for us by a pope. He appointed a couple of Dominicans to design a habit for us, that is why our habit looks like the Dominican habit but is brown with a white mantle.

The original mantle worn by the Carmelites was white with large vertical brown stripes. The tunic, brown scapular, and capuche were not worn by the original hermits on Mount Carmel.

Your dismissive, judgmental, attitude is very far off.
 
Saint Anthony once spoke with a group of Friars that refused to wear the Habit. One of them greatly struggled with sexual sin. Saint Anthony convinced him to wear the Habit, and the moment he put it on and tied the cord around his waist, all temptations vanished.

Any order that refuses to wear the Habit is denying themselves of what they truly are. It is that of a married couple who refuse to wear their wedding rings, or a Priest who refuses to wear clerics. Don’t deny what you are, because what you are defines who you are. These supposed Nuns are ashamed to be what they are, so they hide from it. I know a group of Dominican Nuns close to me that refuse to wear the Habit. They are heavily feminist, they believe women should be Priests, when they say the Sign of the Cross they say “In the name of the Father, and of the Mother, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit”, they deny Mortal Sin, and the need for confession, in short, they’re commonly known as Domini-Wiccans. I have only noticed heretical things like this with orders that refuse to wear the Habit. This explains what the intent behind the refusal means: Orthodoxy is wrong, tradition is wrong, the Church is wrong. New-wave hippie lifestyle all the way. Anyone in an order like this (Or believes it is okay) should read Vatican II, which states that it is necessary for Orders to wear the Habit (Unless the Order itself is an Order of Priests who have chosen to wear clerics instead).

I too am discerning becoming a Friar or Priest, and if the order I’m looking into does not wear a Habit (Or wears an un-orthodox habit without reason) I immediately shove to the side and don’t heed any attention to for the exact reasons above.
Do you speak this way to any priests helping you discern? Just curious. . . .
 
Do you speak this way to any priests helping you discern? Just curious. . . .
What is this supposed to imply?

I’ll tell you what I told Brother Jay: Basically, I am very biased towards the Habit, as it is what drew me to the Faith. I was raised in a home schooled Catholic Family, and for school we read books about the Saints. The first Saint I ever read about was Saint Padre Pio (A Franciscan, if you didn’t notice), and I remember first thinking “Wow. He looks really cool”. And all through my life the Habit (Franciscan especially) was very dear to me. It is what made me even think of the Religious Life (As I wanted to wear the Habit full-time if anything else), and once I actually read about the Religious Life, I realized I felt called to it. The Franciscan Habit is what started it all. So any Religious order that doesn’t wear one for protest-type reasons offends me. Especially when they even bash the Habit (As we read these Nuns did).

As for Priests not wearing Clerics, any good Catholic would back me up on it. That is his wedding ring. Saint Padre Pio would smack a Priest upside the head for not wearing one (If you think I’m exaggerating, read his biography. He slaps people left and right). If you are married, could you ever imagine not having yours on your finger because you didn’t like it?

Oh dang… I forgot to switch to my other profile…
 
You realize that this never happened right? This is a legend.

Never happened? I read this from a highly-acclaimed book about Saint Anthony. It treated it as fact, so if it’s legend than I was told the wrong information.

Regarding Priests, I was referring to diocesan Priests, not Religious Priests. Diocesan Priests must wear their clerics, unless there is an adequate reason not to (Priests being hunted down and killed in France in the 1700’s, for instance).

I didn’t mean to use quotation marks when I said Nuns. I meant it in a way that they weren’t displaying proper Nun behavior (Doing a liturgical dance is highly frowned upon, as well as bashing the Habit). I do realize they are Nuns no matter how heretical they are.

And I do realize not every Nun that refuses to wear Habits is heretical. I’m just saying in my experience, this has always been the case. Not once was it a case of “we just prefer not to wear it”. It was always a sign of protest.

And I am definitely not saying those who wear Habits and clerics are automatically holy because of it. I’m simply saying it shows tradition and orthodoxy. I realize there are many heretical groups that do wear them, but it’s always a discomforting feeling to see a Bishop without his clerics on. Our previous Bishop never once wore his clerics while he was a Bishop, and he wasn’t very orthodox, either. It’s simply where I am raised. You learn to decipher who is orthodox and who is not by their clothing where I’m from. I realize this is not always the case.

I was quoting what? And this was besides the point. There are a few Religious communities of Priests that simply choose to wear clerics instead. There’s one that comes to mind, but I can’t think of its name.

I think the above words explain why I dismiss them. I’m actually very shocked to see how many good communities don’t wear habits. But as stated before, it’s because of where I’m from. In the Diocese of Dodge City, there is much heresy, and the easiest ways to find out who is on who’s side is by the clothing they wear.

I hope I explained myself a little bit, and, just to clarify, it was indeed me who posted before. That is my account with a false name so when I ask embarrassing questions people don’t know it’s me.

In Christ,
Miles.
 
I think there is a fixation on outward appearance. This is something I have noticed among some of those who identify themselves as “traditionalists”.

Again, I point to the Publican and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14).

The point of my last post was that the cloths do not make the religious. A Carmelite is not a Camelite because of the habit.

Those that make the habit their first and foremost concern about religious life have some maturing to do.

It is not true to say, “Diocesan Priests must wear their clerics, unless there is an adequate reason not to (Priests being hunted down and killed in France in the 1700’s, for instance).”

Canon Law states;
Can. 284 Clerics are to wear suitable ecclesiastical dress, in accordance with the norms established by the Episcopal Conference and legitimate local custom.

As for the “un-orthodox” habit comment, there is no such thing, there can be no such thing.

Orthodoxy is not for us to determine, it is not within out competency, we do not have the authority. I point you to this sticky thread in this forum Orthodox Orders REMINDER.

If a religious institute is in communion with Rome then, by definition, it is orthodox. Its constitutions/statues are approved by the Holy See. If they do not contain a habit, do contain a habit, or contain a habit you disapprove of (though you have no right to do so) it does not matter or affect their orthodoxy as they are in communion with Rome and Rome has approved their habit (or lack of one).
 
Hey Teutonic,

I may be mistaken but I believe we are only to use one profile.

I really think you could benefit through regular conversations with a priest, or if you rather, a Franciscan, regarding your potential vocation.

Br. Jr. and Byz Cath (who ARE religious a vital resource for us all and for you in particular) are providing excellent feedback so perhaps re-read some of his posts and pray over them.
 
I am getting feedback from a group on Facebook that is driving me crazy. It is based on the argument from a few non-habited sisters and I think they are being a little too pushy about the subject. …
A habit is not just a “piece of cloth” but a statement. What that statement is interpreted to be is debatable, as we see here. It is for sure a statement of your vocation and commitment. Personally, I don’'t care if sisters wear casual clothes off duty, but when they are acting in their official capacity, they should wear nuns clothes. This “problem” has not surfaced with priests wearing their official clothes; why is it with sisters? No one held a gun to their heads and said, “Put on that habit!” They knew what they were getting into from the get-go. My conclusion is that this “problem” is with a few who just want to complain about something, and bishops too afraid to be frank with them for fear of appearing to be beating up on a few “defenseless” females.
 
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