Habits vs. No Habits

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I could probably do it, but I would probably have to bite my tongue for the first month as I got used to it. I have no problem with people making their decisions for me, and me doing what they say unquestioningly (That’s what being a son is, right?), but if they’re wrong, it’s going to be challenging. Obedience may be dying slowly on the cross, but trying not to say anything is a nail to the foot.
That’s why obedience is a slow death on the cross.

On this matter of obedience, I’d like to share several thoughts. This may actually get us into the real meat of relgious life, which is more than the habit.

The degree of obedience required is going to depend on several things.

The rule – it sets up the skeleton upon which the life of the institute is built
The Constitutions – they outline the rights and duties of superiors and subjects
The example set by the founder – he or she is the man or woma withe the charism
Church law – which decides what is or is not lawful

Here, we have had some serious problems in the latter half of the 20th century, especially in the Western nations. Religious and even diocesan priests are products of their times. The’re not born priests, brothers or sisters.

We’ve adopted a bunch of buzz words in our day, to the point that we have deformed their meaning.

my dignity
my conscience
critical thinking
collective decision making
self - determination
freedom
democracy

In doing so, we have given birth to a general of men and women who find unquestioning obedience archaic, whereas the Spiritual Masters saw it as an act of charity.

In the West, St. Benedict outlines the meaning of obedience and the duty to obey. He is very careful to remind us that the superior is the voice of Christ. Benedict even applies to the superior what scritpure says, “He who hears you hears me.”

St. Albert, St. Augustine and St. Francis take from Benedict and include in their rules the imperative of obedience. Of the three, St. Francis is the most demanding. It’s probably also because Francis sees obedience as inseparable from poverty.

If I were to identify a problem with many religious and secular clergy today, it’s not the habit, it’s entitlement. That seems to be going around a lot these days, even among secular people

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF 🙂
 
I was trying to get your attention and I succeeded. 😃

The problem is that even deacons don’t know the difference between a nun and a sister. In fact, most diocesan priests don’t know the difference. Remember, these men are not religious. They are secular, just like you. They are not formed in the theology and laws of the religious life. They call any woman in vows “a nun”.

Nuns and monnks live an enclosed life of silence, solitude, prayer and community. The highlight of their life is the LOTH, which is the crown around the mass.

What do they do the rest of the day?

Very little. They are usually quite wealthy. Nuns and monks do not have private or personal property, but they have communal property, be it land, factories on their grounds, monastery schools or monastery colleges. These provide enough income for them to live.

They usually engage in some form of work three or four hours a day and that’s it. This can be anything from making vestments to making videos for EWTN. The rest of their day, when they’re not in chapel for adoration or the LOTH, they play tennis, golf, walk, write, read, do private prayer, engage in hobbies.

The focus of their life is Christ. They are not very interested in what happens out here. That’s not to say that they don’t care about us. Actually, they give up their entire life for their salvation and that of the world.

However, they are not interested in knowing every detail about the world outside of the monastery. For example, when the sexual abuse scandal broke, most of them thought it was a horrible thing. They prayed over it and talked about it for 20 minutes and moved on.

When people talk and worry about abuses in the liturgy, they just look at each other and say, “It’s not our problem.” Even this discussion about habits, to them it’s a joke. Some cloistered communities of men or women wear them and some don’t. Some wear then part of the time. This has nothing to do with them or their Church. Their Church is the Church of heaven.

To us, this sounds very strange to us. But they have been called to the highest form of religious life. They have been called to do two things.

a. To die a slow death on a cross, by submitting themselves to total and unquestioning obedience of the abbot or abbess.

b. To live like the angels and saints, in constant praise of God

Most monks and nuns never receive visitors and they never leave their houses. There are some who do: Benedictines, Visitandines and Poor Clares. Even these folks, leave their houses to do very specific tasks and then return.

Don’t misunderstand, nuns thoroughly enjoy themselves when they do go outside of the monastery. I remember Mother Angelica enjoying a good meal at a restaurant and enjoying sight-seeing when she was going around trying to raise funds for EWTN. I other words, they don’t hate the world or consider the world to be corrupt and sinful. Just the opposite. They love the world and they enjoy their encounters with the world, because they don’t pay attention to the negatives.

As you can see, the don’t engage in apostolic work. Their apostolate is to become saints.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Ahhh! You got me! :rotfl:

Could you explain to me this “crown around the mass”? What is that? :confused:

“To die a slow death on the cross”? Wow, that sounds a bit extreme. :eek:
Could just be the way you’re putting it. 👍

And that’s incredible. So even after the sex abuse scandals, they just went on. What an interesting group. 🙂

So if the lady I met wasn’t a Nun, then what WAS she? :confused:

-MontChevalier
 
I agree with this too and that’s why I wear my habit almost everywhere.

Mother was interesting. When she first started out, around 1946, few people knew that she was a sister. She looked like other Hindu women. As more sisters came, it became obvious that this was a community, because they all wore the same sari. Originally, no one could tell, because the sari is not the garb that people identified with women religious.

Mother chose the sari because Jesus told her that he wanted an Indian congregation. In Hindu culture, women wear saris, but men do not. They wear white shirts and slacks. So her male Missionaries of Charity dress like Hindu men. If you see 10 of them together you quickly realize that they are all wearing the same white shirt and slacks. If one of them were alone on the bus with you, you would probably think that he’s just another guy or another Hindu man.

What made the sari famous was Mother Teresa’s work and life. Had it not been for that, we might have seen a woman in a sari riding the metro and though that she was just another Hindu woman. Today, we identify it with Mother.

Moving right along, the problem that you’re going to find with orthodox religious is when the laity tries to demand that religious wear a habit, behave in a certain manner, engage in certain ministries or not engage in others. I’ll explain why you (universal you) have a problem.

For centuries, the laity manipulated religious communities for their own purposes. One of the most common means was to withhold funds from them. For example, Teresa of Avila was on the verge of a nervous breakdown, because they had to leave the cloister to go to Mrs. X’s home and “comfort” her, because she was pregnant. The nuns had to move in with Mrs. X until the lady gave birth or even longer. This took them away from the life of solitude and prayer to which Christ called them. They were forced to do this, because they depended on donations from the laity in order to eat.

Lay people subverted and even bought the votes of religious during a chapter to get a relative elected abbot or abbess. There were laws that you could not open a religious house without the permission of the king.

In the USA, many of our schools and hospitals have struggled to stay alive and most have died out, because the state passes laws that we can’t follow, because we don’t have the money or because they are contrary to Catholic faith. In many places, Catholics vote for these laws, knowing that they will bring the end to Catholic institutions run by religious. Look at the number of Catholics that voted for a pro-abortion government, not only in the USA but around the world. Madrid, once one of the most Catholic cities in the world, is the abortion capitol of Europe. Religious can no longer run hospitals and clinics in Madrid. It’s illegal to deny abortion, contraception and sterilization.

Things got so bad that the Council of Trent had to pass what is called The Right of Exemption. It’s a law that prohibits that bishops and laity interfere with religious of Pontifical Right. Religious of Pontifical Right, such as my Carmelite brothers and me are protected from bishops and laity by the pope. We answer to him and no one else. Trent had to do this to keep religious life from being manipulated, bought and sold at the will of wealthy laymen and bishops. Trent even prohibitted bishops from entering a religious house without the permission of the religious. That’s how strict things had to get. These laws are still in the books.

Think of how it sounds to a young religious, like Br. David, when a bishop cannot tell him what to wear or even go through his front door without the permission of the Prior, but in the meantime a layman is making demands on what he should or should not wear. It sounds discordant. It begs the question. “Wait a minute, no bishop can tell me what to wear and a layman wants to do so?”

It’s a knee-jerk reaction that many young religious have, because they know that if they were talking to the local bishop, this would not be a topic of conversation. The most a bishop can say is that he wants you to dress according to the rules and constitutions of your community. He’s not over stepping his bounds in saying that. It’s like me telling your child, “I want you to obey your mom and dad.” I’m not making rules for your child. Beyond that, the bishop can complain the the superior, if the religious are not living up to what their statutes say.

I work for a bishop. He can go off on me if I don’t do the work. As fars my clothing is concerned, the only thing that he ever said to me when we first met was, “Is that your habit?”

I said, “Yes, Your Excellency. Is there a problem?”

He responded, “No. That’s fine.”

Then I said, “Would Your Excellency prefer that I wear a Roman collar, because I can do so, if you wish it?”

He said, “No. That’s fine.”

When you have these kinds of exchanges with Church authorities and then you come here and get TOLD what to wear and not wear, it’s a little disturbing.

Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br. JR, how do you know these things??? :confused:
What books have you been reading? :eek: (Please tell me, cause I LOVE books; and learning)

I’m under the impression you’re a member of the Syro-Malabar or Syro-Malakara rites. Is this so? :eek:

Oh my God, I am so ashamed! 😦 I am so ashamed of having any connections with Spain…Ugh…my ancestors are rolling in their graves. Thank God they’re from Barcelona and not Madrid.

-MontChevalier
 
Ahhh! You got me! :rotfl:

Could you explain to me this “crown around the mass”? What is that? :confused:
From the days of Judaism, Isreael offered sacrifice. However, the sacrifice was a single event, meaning it was done at specific times and days, not a daily thing. In order to sanctify the day, the Jews prayed 'round the clock. You will see in the Scripture where they say that the Apostles went to the temple to pray at the ninth hour, etc.

When the Jews became Christian, the sacrifice is the mass, which is celebrated daily around the world. As a continuation of the praise and glory that we give to God at mass, the Church prays the LOTH 'round the clock, as did the Jews. We speak of the LOTH as the crown around the Eucharist. At every hour of the day, the Church is praying. Given the changes in time zones, while one part of the world is at rest, another part of the world is praying morning prayer and another evening prayer or midday prayer, etc. There is never a moment when the LOTH is not being prayed.
“To die a slow death on the cross”? Wow, that sounds a bit extreme. :eek:
Could just be the way you’re putting it. 👍
That is actually the theology of the monastic life or the enclosed life. The monk and the nun choose to die with Christ. Each day is a step closer to reaching the perfection of total self-emptying as Christ emptied himself on the cross. The monk and nun seek to be completely detached from everything that is not the will of God, as Christ was on the cross.
And that’s incredible. So even after the sex abuse scandals, they just went on. What an interesting group. 🙂
Yes. They are called to the highest form of life on earth. They are called to anticipate life in the Kingdom while on earth. In other words, a monk and a nuns is an eschatalogical sign. He or she is a sign of what is to come. In the Kingdom of God, these things are of no concern. All of this is over and done with. All that matters if the Beatific Vision.

While they are informed of these things and they pray for the Church and those who are hurt by these things, they do not spend time on these things. They know how to live better than we do. They fullly understand that you cannot change the past. You cannot change those who don’t want to change. You have no control over others.

They also understand that God can heal all hurt, forgive all sins, and restore all things to their normal place. So they proceed to put these things in his hands and to live in full trust that God will triumph.

They do not dwell on anything that will strip them of their inner silence, peace and goodwill toward all men. Unlike us, they do not allow cancerous worries, recentments, and memories to take over their thoughts or influence their daily lives. While they do not embrace the sin, they do not embrace the anger and recentment either. They have received a grace of Wisdom that many of us have yet to know.
So if the lady I met wasn’t a Nun, then what WAS she? :confused:
-MontChevalier
She was a sister. A sister is a consecrated women religious who makes vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. Sometimes they make a fourth vow, depending on the community. These women live in community and serve Christ and his Church through prayer and a specific apostolate in the world. This may be teaching, parish work, administration, caring for the poor or elderly, preaching retreats, etc. They engage in many social ministries and operate many agencies and organization that provide services to those who are vulnerable and those who are in need of the Gospel.

A nun, on the other hand, makes vows, lives a life of prayer, but does not engage in the world. Christ has a very special place for her. He does not want to share her with the world. He preserves her for himself. She lays down her life for the world by living alone with Christ and for Christ. The world benefits from the graces that she earns, not from the work that she does.

Because the nun’s life is so intimate, the Church refers to the vows of a nuns as Solemn Vows. The only other people that make such vows are monks, friars and Jesuits.

All other religious make vows, but they are not considered Solemn, because they don’t have the same degree of intimacy with Christ. They reach Christ and serve Christ through the world. The monk, friar, nun and Jesuit lives to please Christ, be it in an apostolate or by sitting all day in prayer and study. Whatever pleases Christ. Interaction with the world is not necessary, though it is possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br. JR, how do you know these things??? :confused:
What books have you been reading? :eek: (Please tell me, cause I LOVE books; and learning)
Aside from four years at major seminary and five more in post-grad theology, you pick up every book and article you can get your hands on and stay informed.
How did you get that impression? I’m a Latin Catholic and I worship in the Roman Rite.

Hey, are you ashamed of being American? We imported abortion from the Nazis and exported it to the rest of the world.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
[/QUOTE]
 
Then maybe Franciscan life is not for you. It’s all about obedience, the cross, detachment from self, and total submission. Poverty begins with the material things, but it does not stop there. One must also give up one’s pride, one’s love of self, one’s desire to be right, one’s idealism, one’s attachment to what one was taught in order to learn to live by pure faith and dependence on Divine Providence.

Respect has nothing to do with it. That’s a secular notion, not a Franciscan notion. Francis deeply respected his sons and daughters. The more obedient and foolish they were, the more he respected them for their simplicity. The real Franciscan is the man who is willing to be like Jesus.

Remember when Jesus is found in the temple and Mary scolds him. He explains why he’s there. But the Scripture also tells us that he left with them and was obedient to them, even though they were wrong and he was right.

Again at his trial. He knows that it’s a mockery of justice. But he submits, even though the Roman governor is wrong.

One cannot love totally, until one is totally poor. It’s not enough to give up your TV and iPod. The greatest treasure that a man has is his will. God will not strip that from us.

That’s what makes it the greatest gift that we can give to him, because free will is the only thing that God cannot take away from us. To surrender it to him, out of pure love, out of a desire to own nothing as Christ owned nothing, is priceless in God’s eyes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I know I’m going on three posts already, but I just have to say how inspiring this is. 👍

-MontChevalier
 
MontChevalier;8396906:
Br. JR, how do you know these things??? :confused:
What books have you been reading? :eek: (Please tell me, cause I LOVE books; and learning)
Aside from four years at major seminary and five more in post-grad theology, you pick up every book and article you can get your hands on and stay informed.
You were talking about India, so I just figured.

Well, I’m not really American. But that still sounds horrible. 😦
 
Ever since the topsy-turvy insanity of the 60s and 70s, when American Sisters went all loony, this whole habit-no habit controversy just keeps getting sillier and sillier. I am pro-habit and have many questions about this matter. For instance, why don’t you hear monks having controversies like this?

Another thing I thought was : Nowadays, nuns who are going to be “hidden away” where no one will ever see them, wear habits. Nuns who are going to be visible do not. What is the purpose of this!???:confused:

Currently on another thread within Vocations, there is another discussion raging abour habits (Seculars with Full Habits…). Maybe some years from now, when the current broken consecrated life has been straightened by a new generation of nuns who can be balanced about habits. Right now, we are unable to be.👍
 
Ever since the topsy-turvy insanity of the 60s and 70s, when American Sisters went all loony, this whole habit-no habit controversy just keeps getting sillier and sillier. I am pro-habit and have many questions about this matter. For instance, why don’t you hear monks having controversies like this?

Another thing I thought was : Nowadays, nuns who are going to be “hidden away” where no one will ever see them, wear habits. Nuns who are going to be visible do not. What is the purpose of this!???:confused:

Currently on another thread within Vocations, there is another discussion raging abour habits (Seculars with Full Habits…). Maybe some years from now, when the current broken consecrated life has been straightened by a new generation of nuns who can be balanced about habits. Right now, we are unable to be.👍
To understand what has happened you may want to go back and read post # 151.

You are always going to have religious in habits and others without them. This is God’s will for the religious life. We can’t change that. God reveals his will for religious through the founder, the Church and the chapter.

As to current religious life being broken, that’s rather harsh and offensive to us who are religious. There is much to our way of life that the average person will never see and is not meant to see.

Your comment about nuns shows the lack of understanding of the laity. There are no such creatures as nuns on the street. The women religious that you see in parishes, schools, etc are not nuns. They were never meant to be nuns. They don’t even make the same vows as nuns. Nuns make solemn vows. Sisters make simple vows. Nuns belong to orders. Sisters belong to congregations. Nuns are enclosed. Sisters are apostolic. Nuns are monastic. Sisters are active. Nuns are to stay away from the secular world. Sisters are to serve in the secular world. Not all cloisterd nuns wear a habit. Not all sisters are habitless.

Why don’t you hear monks having contraversies like this?

Monks do not allow anything that happens inside the monastery to leak to the outside world. Monastic orders follow the rules of Benedict, Bruno or Basil. The three Bs. The three of them were terrified of the laity. They wrote safeguards into their rules. These keep the laity at bay.

Yes, monks do take off their habits to play golf, tennis, do certain kinds of work, teach, travel, etc. It’s up to the abbot to decide. They can’t decide this for themselves. It’s not allowed.

We have to get away from that myth that religious are supposed to be visible so that they may inspire us. This was not in the mind of the founders.

Those who founded active communities had a very specific purpose in mind: teaching, nursing, catechesis, care of the aged, preaching, missions and so forth.

Those who founded fraternal communities, such as the Franciscans, did not have the laity in mind at all or the rest of the Church for that matter. Francis’ original thought was to live the Gospel in obedience, in poverty and in brotherhood with each other. However, this strong sense of brotherhood with all men continues to drive Franciscans to serve those in need. We don’t get up in the morning and think about how to inspire people. We get up in the morning and think about how to love God.

It seems that those who are judging religious who do not wear a habit are puting the emphasis in the wrong place. The emphasis is not on visibility. The emphasis is on love. The religious is a man or woman who loves God more than he loves life itself. Out of love for God he does whatever God asks.

If God asks him to be very visible by wearing a habit, he does that. If God asks him to go through the world and be anonymous, he does not wear a habit. He does good and disappears. God does not call all religious to be the same. That’s the beauty of religious life. It’s like a garden with a variety of plants and flowers.

Was there silliness in the past? Of course. Is it dying down? Yes. It’s pretty much gone. Does this mean that habits are coming back? Only to those communities that Christ wants to be visible. The ones that he wants to remain anonymous will not have habits.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
To understand what has happened you may want to go back and read post # 151.

You are always going to have religious in habits and others without them. This is God’s will for the religious life. We can’t change that. God reveals his will for religious through the founder, the Church and the chapter.

As to current religious life being broken, that’s rather harsh and offensive to us who are religious. There is much to our way of life that the average person will never see and is not meant to see.

Your comment about nuns shows the lack of understanding of the laity. There are no such creatures as nuns on the street. The women religious that you see in parishes, schools, etc are not nuns. They were never meant to be nuns. They don’t even make the same vows as nuns. Nuns make solemn vows. Sisters make simple vows. Nuns belong to orders. Sisters belong to congregations. Nuns are enclosed. Sisters are apostolic. Nuns are monastic. Sisters are active. Nuns are to stay away from the secular world. Sisters are to serve in the secular world. Not all cloisterd nuns wear a habit. Not all sisters are habitless.

Why don’t you hear monks having contraversies like this?

Monks do not allow anything that happens inside the monastery to leak to the outside world. Monastic orders follow the rules of Benedict, Bruno or Basil. The three Bs. The three of them were terrified of the laity. They wrote safeguards into their rules. These keep the laity at bay.

Yes, monks do take off their habits to play golf, tennis, do certain kinds of work, teach, travel, etc. It’s up to the abbot to decide. They can’t decide this for themselves. It’s not allowed.

We have to get away from that myth that religious are supposed to be visible so that they may inspire us. This was not in the mind of the founders.

Those who founded active communities had a very specific purpose in mind: teaching, nursing, catechesis, care of the aged, preaching, missions and so forth.

Those who founded fraternal communities, such as the Franciscans, did not have the laity in mind at all or the rest of the Church for that matter. Francis’ original thought was to live the Gospel in obedience, in poverty and in brotherhood with each other. However, this strong sense of brotherhood with all men continues to drive Franciscans to serve those in need. We don’t get up in the morning and think about how to inspire people. We get up in the morning and think about how to love God.

It seems that those who are judging religious who do not wear a habit are puting the emphasis in the wrong place. The emphasis is not on visibility. The emphasis is on love. The religious is a man or woman who loves God more than he loves life itself. Out of love for God he does whatever God asks.

If God asks him to be very visible by wearing a habit, he does that. If God asks him to go through the world and be anonymous, he does not wear a habit. He does good and disappears. God does not call all religious to be the same. That’s the beauty of religious life. It’s like a garden with a variety of plants and flowers.

Was there silliness in the past? Of course. Is it dying down? Yes. It’s pretty much gone. Does this mean that habits are coming back? Only to those communities that Christ wants to be visible. The ones that he wants to remain anonymous will not have habits.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank-you Brother for once again elaborating and trying to educate those outside of religious life on the varieties and differences in our ways of life. As a new religious (Cloistered -Habited for those who might wonder) it is wonderful to see you try to bring so much solid information and balance to the forums. As you have said… by way of admonition please do not try to make the issue of habits vs non habits into an us or them situation. It really is not like that, it really boils down to what a person feels called to, and in the end isn’t it great that so many people feel a call to religious life??? (here I talk of any community in union with Rome of course… that being said…)From my vantage point I most certainly don’t see religious life today as being broken. In fact if one looks at not only the worldwide statistics as a whole as well as those in the United States vocations are increasing… no we don’t expect the same numbers as in the 50s but still religious life is healthy. I would encourage all our posters who have such good will to continue to pray for vocations and support those who are in the process of discernment. My hope is that those who visit these forums might find a safe place for them to begin or continue any vocation journey that thay might begin.
Blessings All! Sr Debbie, O.S.C.
 
Thank-you Brother for once again elaborating and trying to educate those outside of religious life on the varieties and differences in our ways of life. As a new religious (Cloistered -Habited for those who might wonder) it is wonderful to see you try to bring so much solid information and balance to the forums. As you have said… by way of admonition please do not try to make the issue of habits vs non habits into an us or them situation. It really is not like that, it really boils down to what a person feels called to, and in the end isn’t it great that so many people feel a call to religious life??? (here I talk of any community in union with Rome of course… that being said…)From my vantage point I most certainly don’t see religious life today as being broken. In fact if one looks at not only the worldwide statistics as a whole as well as those in the United States vocations are increasing… no we don’t expect the same numbers as in the 50s but still religious life is healthy. I would encourage all our posters who have such good will to continue to pray for vocations and support those who are in the process of discernment. My hope is that those who visit these forums might find a safe place for them to begin or continue any vocation journey that thay might begin.
Blessings All! Sr Debbie, O.S.C.
Thank you Sister. Before I continue with the post, please tell our sisters that their brothers will be keeping them in our prayers tomorrow night at the Transitus and on Tuesday at the mass for the Solemnity of our Holy Father.

I’d like to take advantage of Sister’s presence to highlight another difference, which is more profound than a habit or a suit. That is the different degrees of religious consecration. Sister and I belong to the same religious family. We’re both Franciscans. However, Sister is a monastic and I’m a mendicant. Even though we belong to the same family, our lives are very different. We are inspired by the same parents, Francis and Clare. Yet, the Holy Spirit called us to different degrees of or different intensities of consecration.

Sister’s life is totally centered on Christ’s presence, without mediation through human contact. As a nun, she is called to live the mystery of the Incarnation by becoming one with the Incarnate Christ, not through service to others, but in silence and solitude. Christ chooses to make her part of his incarnate life without the need of going through others.

I, on the other hand, am called to enter into the mystery of the Incarnation through a life of brotherhood and service. While the Incarnate Christ makes himself present in Sister’s life at those moments when she is silent and alone, in my case, he makes himself present in those moments when my life touches the life of another.

The Church recognizes the profession of our vows as a solemn profession of the Evangelical Counsels, instead of a simple profession. However, the Church also acknowledges Sister’s way of life as far superior to mine. She achieves holiness and sanctifies the world through unmediated intimacy with Christ. I cannot do that. However, God in his mercy does not allow me to be lost. He provides a way of life for me that allows me to meet him in service and brotherhood, because that is better for me and is easier for me.

The mystery of religious life goes far deeper than the habit. We have Poor Clares that do not wear a habit. Some wear a modified habit. Others wear the classical habit and others, such as Mother Angelica wear an intermediate version of the original Franciscan habit. However, what does not change is the degree of consecration of these women and their intimacy with the Incarnate Christ in silence and solitude. For us, that’s the most important part.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you Sister. Before I continue with the post, please tell our sisters that their brothers will be keeping them in our prayers tomorrow night at the Transitus and on Tuesday at the mass for the Solemnity of our Holy Father.

I’d like to take advantage of Sister’s presence to highlight another difference, which is more profound than a habit or a suit. That is the different degrees of religious consecration. Sister and I belong to the same religious family. We’re both Franciscans. However, Sister is a monastic and I’m a mendicant. Even though we belong to the same family, our lives are very different. We are inspired by the same parents, Francis and Clare. Yet, the Holy Spirit called us to different degrees of or different intensities of consecration.

Sister’s life is totally centered on Christ’s presence, without mediation through human contact. As a nun, she is called to live the mystery of the Incarnation by becoming one with the Incarnate Christ, not through service to others, but in silence and solitude. Christ chooses to make her part of his incarnate life without the need of going through others.

I, on the other hand, am called to enter into the mystery of the Incarnation through a life of brotherhood and service. While the Incarnate Christ makes himself present in Sister’s life at those moments when she is silent and alone, in my case, he makes himself present in those moments when my life touches the life of another.

The Church recognizes the profession of our vows as a solemn profession of the Evangelical Counsels, instead of a simple profession. However, the Church also acknowledges Sister’s way of life as far superior to mine. She achieves holiness and sanctifies the world through unmediated intimacy with Christ. I cannot do that. However, God in his mercy does not allow me to be lost. He provides a way of life for me that allows me to meet him in service and brotherhood, because that is better for me and is easier for me.

The mystery of religious life goes far deeper than the habit. We have Poor Clares that do not wear a habit. Some wear a modified habit. Others wear the classical habit and others, such as Mother Angelica wear an intermediate version of the original Franciscan habit. However, what does not change is the degree of consecration of these women and their intimacy with the Incarnate Christ in silence and solitude. For us, that’s the most important part.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Code:
Although I am not a religious, but can that be said of the carmelites where their lives differ like yours but also their habits?
 
Code:
Although I am not a religious, but can that be said of the carmelites where their lives differ like yours but also their habits?
The Carmelite nuns are in the same group as the Poor Clare Franciscans. I know that the Carmelite Friars are older than the Franciscans. However, I believe that the Carmelite nuns are younger.

The Carmelite Friars are in the same group as the Franciscan, Dominican, Trinitarian and Servite Friars. They are all mendicants.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I know that the Carmelite Friars are older than the Franciscans. However, I believe that the Carmelite nuns are younger.
Indeed, by about 250 years. It seems curious that the Carmelites should have waited so long to admit women, inasmuch as the Poor Clares and Dominican nuns had appeared in the early 13th century. But like much Carmelite history, the events remain something of a mystery even to our best historians because of the frequent lack of extant records.

The first profession (or more correctly, oblation) of a woman within the Carmelite charism is recorded as having occurred in 1304 at Bologna, but she was not a nun (she was most likely an anchoress, in fact). In 1452 there was a formal recognition by the Carmelite prior general Blessed John Soreth of the incorporation of women into the order, and communities of nuns proper were formed soon after from groups of beguines, mantellate and beatas (all of whom were either types of solitaries, or alternatively regular tertiaries).

We know that Blessed Frances D’Amboise, a rich widow, founded a monastery at Bondon in France in 1463, and other foundations followed, although it is difficult to p(name removed by moderator)oint which was the very first monastery established. Blessed Frances later took the habit herself, and the familiar model of women entering the cloister directly (rather than after previous oblation or tertiary association) became the norm in France and elsewhere in the latter part of the15th century.

And now Carmel is so obviously associated with our great women saints that, when identifying myself as a Carmelite (our habits look quite similar to some Franciscan habits) I’ve had several people say to me, ‘Oh, I didn’t know there were Carmelite men; I though there was only the nuns’.

Sigh. But a little humiliation is good for the soul. 😦
 
The Carmelite nuns are in the same group as the Poor Clare Franciscans. I know that the Carmelite Friars are older than the Franciscans. However, I believe that the Carmelite nuns are younger.

The Carmelite Friars are in the same group as the Franciscan, Dominican, Trinitarian and Servite Friars. They are all mendicants.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Code:
Thank you Bro. I am only aware of the O’CARM friars here in niagara falls…we have also carmelite OCD sisters with full habit who minister to the elederly in the next city and the OCD cloistered nuns in Buffalo. The active carmelite sisters’ habit is different…but close ebnough. That was also my question…would their habits differ like the fransciscans? But not as widely different as your?
 
Indeed, by about 250 years. It seems curious that the Carmelites should have waited so long to admit women, inasmuch as the Poor Clares and Dominican nuns had appeared in the early 13th century. But like much Carmelite history, the events remain something of a mystery even to our best historians because of the frequent lack of extant records.

The first profession (or more correctly, oblation) of a woman within the Carmelite charism is recorded as having occurred in 1304 at Bologna, but she was not a nun (she was most likely an anchoress, in fact). In 1452 there was a formal recognition by the Carmelite prior general Blessed John Soreth of the incorporation of women into the order, and communities of nuns proper were formed soon after from groups of beguines, mantellate and beatas (all of whom were either types of solitaries, or alternatively regular tertiaries).

We know that Blessed Frances D’Amboise, a rich widow, founded a monastery at Bondon in France in 1463, and other foundations followed, although it is difficult to p(name removed by moderator)oint which was the very first monastery established. Blessed Frances later took the habit herself, and the familiar model of women entering the cloister directly (rather than after previous oblation or tertiary association) became the norm in France and elsewhere in the latter part of the15th century.

And now Carmel is so obviously associated with our great women saints that, when identifying myself as a Carmelite (our habits look quite similar to some Franciscan habits) I’ve had several people say to me, ‘Oh, I didn’t know there were Carmelite men; I though there was only the nuns’.

Sigh. But a little humiliation is good for the soul. 😦
Code:
Thank you Ocarm! I did not know who to respond to. I answered Bro’s post as Iasked him the question and he answered first. Thank you for your response. i am learning the carmelite history…most interesting and beautiful…maybe you can answer the question above also about the habits…Praise be Jesus Christ!
 
Indeed, by about 250 years. It seems curious that the Carmelites should have waited so long to admit women, inasmuch as the Poor Clares and Dominican nuns had appeared in the early 13th century. But like much Carmelite history, the events remain something of a mystery even to our best historians because of the frequent lack of extant records.

The first profession (or more correctly, oblation) of a woman within the Carmelite charism is recorded as having occurred in 1304 at Bologna, but she was not a nun (she was most likely an anchoress, in fact). In 1452 there was a formal recognition by the Carmelite prior general Blessed John Soreth of the incorporation of women into the order, and communities of nuns proper were formed soon after from groups of beguines, mantellate and beatas (all of whom were either types of solitaries, or alternatively regular tertiaries).

We know that Blessed Frances D’Amboise, a rich widow, founded a monastery at Bondon in France in 1463, and other foundations followed, although it is difficult to p(name removed by moderator)oint which was the very first monastery established. Blessed Frances later took the habit herself, and the familiar model of women entering the cloister directly (rather than after previous oblation or tertiary association) became the norm in France and elsewhere in the latter part of the15th century.

And now Carmel is so obviously associated with our great women saints that, when identifying myself as a Carmelite (our habits look quite similar to some Franciscan habits) I’ve had several people say to me, ‘Oh, I didn’t know there were Carmelite men; I though there was only the nuns’.

Sigh. But a little humiliation is good for the soul. 😦
You guys have the inverse situation to that of the Dominicans. Dominic founded the nuns first and then the friars. Later, the Franciscans inspired him to found the Dominican Order of Penance. But when people think “Dominican” they think friars and Dominican sisters. The friars came second and the sisters came 200 years after Dominic was dead. The poor nuns don’t get the credit for being the first Dominican order.
Code:
Thank you Bro. I am only aware of the O’CARM friars here in niagara falls…we have also carmelite OCD sisters with full habit who minister to the elederly in the next city and the OCD cloistered nuns in Buffalo. The active carmelite sisters’ habit is different…but close ebnough. That was also my question…would their habits differ like the fransciscans? But not as widely different as your?
The Carmelite Friars wear pretty much the same habit. The differences are noticeable to those of us who know what to look for, such as the style of the cowl and the length of the mantle. The colors are the same. The Carmelite sisters are autonomous. They can wear whatever they choose to wear. I have seen them in grey, brown, black and habitless.

The nuns wear the same habit as the friars, but they look better in veils than do the friars. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You guys have the inverse situation to that of the Dominicans. Dominic founded the nuns first and then the friars. Later, the Franciscans inspired him to found the Dominican Order of Penance. But when people think “Dominican” they think friars and Dominican sisters. The friars came second and the sisters came 200 years after Dominic was dead. The poor nuns don’t get the credit for being the first Dominican order.

The Carmelite Friars wear pretty much the same habit. The differences are noticeable to those of us who know what to look for, such as the style of the cowl and the length of the mantle. The colors are the same. The Carmelite sisters are autonomous. They can wear whatever they choose to wear. I have seen them in grey, brown, black and habitless.

The nuns wear the same habit as the friars, but they look better in veils than do the friars. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Code:
:rotfl:
 
You guys have the inverse situation to that of the Dominicans. Dominic founded the nuns first and then the friars. Later, the Franciscans inspired him to found the Dominican Order of Penance. But when people think “Dominican” they think friars and Dominican sisters. The friars came second and the sisters came 200 years after Dominic was dead. The poor nuns don’t get the credit for being the first Dominican order.

The Carmelite Friars wear pretty much the same habit. The differences are noticeable to those of us who know what to look for, such as the style of the cowl and the length of the mantle. The colors are the same. The Carmelite sisters are autonomous. They can wear whatever they choose to wear. I have seen them in grey, brown, black and habitless.

The nuns wear the same habit as the friars, but they look better in veils than do the friars. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Carmelite Nuns (OCD) may also be habitless. I believe this has to do with the fact that there are actually two Constitutions for the OCD Nuns, 1990 which is a reform of the 1581 Constitution, and 1991.
 
Carmelite Nuns (OCD) may also be habitless. I believe this has to do with the fact that there are actually two Constitutions for the OCD Nuns, 1990 which is a reform of the 1581 Constitution, and 1991.
Code:
Wasn’t the point for the reform was to return to the origianl spirit of carmel? I am not sure. carmel became quite lax in teresa’s day…am I wrong?
 
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