Had a bad experience at mass yesterday

[benedictgal]

There was nothing wrong with money changers being IN the temple. They were set up in the outer court before the entrance to the main worship-conducting part of the temple to allow Jews to fulfill their obligation given in the book of Exodus to be able to pay their 1/2 shekel annual temple tax. It was necessary because their laws prohibited use of any coin with a graven image… and under Roman rule, all coins had an image of Caesar on them. The purpose of the money changer was to allow these coins to be converted to shekels, a coin made just for this purpose, that contained an image of a palm on it (not a person).

What Jesus was responding to was the fact that they were charging 8:1 exchange rate, so it cost a person 4 shekels in reality to pay the 1/2 shekel required. Without that tax being paid, they were prevented from further worship (offering their sacrifice).

The sin was barring access to God by price-gouging in the required temple tax money conversion, not simply being there.

Actually, the moneychangers were housed in the Court of the Gentiles, the area in the Temple that was reserved for non-Jews to come and pray. Thus, they were profaning the House of God. They were located in a sacred space and conducting their business in a sacred area.

While they did provide a needed service (kind of hard to bring in a lamb all the way from Nazareth or Galilee if you were going to offer sacrifice; it would have not survived the long journey), they set up shop in the wrong location, along with the fact that they were probably overcharging.

 

[japhy]

He often does not rinse or clean any of the vessels used during the celebration of the Eucharist - I am not sure if this is ok, nor do I know what he may do after mass.

It is permitted for the priest to wait until after Mass to purify the sacred vessels. (GIRM 163)

He wings the Penitential Rite, all of it, never reads just wings it. He also normally wings the Opening Prayer. He also wings the General Intercessions.

If by “wings it”, you mean he makes up his own, that is certainly not allowed for the Opening Prayer. How does he “wing” the Penitential Rite? Does he come up with his own invocations which precede “Lord have mercy / Christ have mercy / Lord have mercy”? If so, that is allowed (assuming he doesn’t make up non-Catholic things!). The General Intercessions are also free-form, although they should adhere to a general structure: “For the needs of the Church; For public authorities and the salvation of the whole world; For those burdened by any kind of difficulty; For the local community.” (GIRM 70)

During the Eucharistic Prayer he always adds “May the Body and Blood of Christ allow us to more and more embody Him in our time and space.” I am careful to hear what he says during the Consecration, and he actually normally reads it. During this particular mass he did not put water into both chalices, and lifts the chalice and host during the consecration, but not after the consecration, he just keeps them at the same height.

Priests are not permitted to alter the words of the Eucharistic Prayer (or the Mass in general, really). While he has good sentiments, he is adding catechetical glosses to prayers instead of simply catechizing the faithful at the proper times. Some priests feel the need to make the Mass more relevant with additions based on the readings of the day, etc., instead of using the homily (or other things outside of Mass).

He needn’t put water in all chalices, just the principal one.

He should elevate the Host after its consecration, and the Chalice as well. Could you explain more clearly what he did or didn’t do?

Lastly, this priest normally changes minor words or the order of words during the Gospel reading.

It may be that he is just not reading carefully.

This week he stopped [early] … Not the approved short form, just decided to stop there, where he wanted to stop.

That’s not his choice to make.

But this week, for the first time we had the added feature of an acoustic guitar. Not only that but our organ which we bought a few years back, for tens or thousands of dollars, was also replaced with an electric keyboard.

I am sorry to hear about your parish’s change in music. It is unfortunate.

This new choir also went on to change the form of the Great Amen and Holy, Holy so much so that I couldn’t participate

Those parts of the Mass are meant to be ones in which the whole congregation (not just the choir) participates in.

The Agnus Dei was so different I had never heard anything like it, the last “Lamb of God” was replaced with “Jesus Christ”.

Changing the words of the Lamb of God is not permitted.

Am I just more concerned about how I want mass to be and should be more concerned with worshiping God?

It’s not about how I want Mass to be celebrated, or how you want Mass to be celebrated, or even how the priest wants Mass to be celebrated. It’s about how the Church wants Mass to be celebrated:
t is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.
You have certain liturgical rights which should be respected by all in the Church.

 

[Matusewic]

I understand where the OP is coming from.

I celebrated the mass at a parish out of town a couple of weeks ago. When things are done differently then what you’re used to, whether they be right or wrong, they confuse and bring up questions.

For instance, after the gospel reading, at my parish we say “praise to you Lord Jesus Christ.” before we sit down. At the mass I went to the priest sung “The gospel of the Lord.” and the congregation replied: “Amen.” (I haven’t done my homework on how that response is supposed to be done but it was different and was confusing.)

Also, the congregation wasn’t kneeling when everyone was receiving the Eucharist, which was another thing that was different. There were just small differences the entire time here and there that just didn’t seem to fit in the ordinary routine of what I am used to.

FAB suggests that this kind of thing is being overly-scrupulous, and its more about the ‘why’ then the ‘how.’ This is a very noble attitude but if you know the mass a certain way and if it doesn’t seem to be done right, it would seem the OP doesn’t have issues with the priest but more has issues with being able to worship correctly.

 

[FAB]

Fab, you are the one missing the point. Jesus was not condeming the Sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel, especially since this was the prefigurement of His authentic True sacrifice.

 

[FAB]

Perhaps a lot of those things were nit picking, and I freely admitted that possibility as i was writing as well at the end of my post. However, by your own admissions some of those things are a bit more severe if only “a lot” were nit picking. Also, when many small things occur at one time it can, and usually does, pile up and make a bigger deal.

Many of these things had been happening and I just grumbled to wife a bit afterwards. It was this last Sunday that much more happened. In effect because I, and apparently everyone else, just sat there and let small things go by we were hit with more later.

As Benedictgal said we have the right to a mass free of liturgical abuses. If you think not having abuses makes the priest a robot then I do not know what to answer to you.

His freedom comes in using chant or not or during the homily - which really was one of his better this last Sunday. It doesn’t come when the Church prescribes otherwise.

I have seen many things that some would consider liturgical abuses. I also know that the presider has a certain amount of leway in the celbration of the mass. I try to focus on the spiritual and supernatual events that are happening, rather that the if the form is exactly right.
I don’t deny that there are priest who go to far, but I don’t believe it is done is mannor that is disrepectful to the liturgy. Priest have good and bad days. It effect thier part in the liturgy. I much rather give him and those helping in the liturgy that they are trying to follow the rite. It is the reason I warn not to be over scrupulous.

Peace, FAB

 

[benedictgal]

I have seen many things that some would consider liturgical abuses. I also know that the presider has a certain amount of leway in the celbration of the mass. I try to focus on the spiritual and supernatual events that are happening, rather that the if the form is exactly right.
I don’t deny that there are priest who go to far, but I don’t believe it is done is mannor that is disrepectful to the liturgy. Priest have good and bad days. It effect thier part in the liturgy. I much rather give him and those helping in the liturgy that they are trying to follow the rite. It is the reason I warn not to be over scrupulous.

Peace, FAB

The leeway that a celebrant has is rather limited. In fact, that leeway is confined only to the options given to him in the Roman Missal and the Lectionary. It is not carte blanche. Redemptionis Sacramentum, and even the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy are very clear about that.

Deviation from the norms causes a lot of harm, as noted in the preamble to Redemptionis Sacramentum. It causes confusion among the faithful and a disunity that ruptures the Mass. This has nothing to do with scrupulosity.

Regarding your earlier post, the widow’s mite has nothing at all to do with the cleansing of the Temple. Those were two entirely different matters.

 

[zab]

Your pastor may not have a good selection of substitues to choose from when he has to be away from the parish. It is OK to let your pastor know about some things the visiting priest does wrong, but then let it go, pray for the priest and pray for an increase of vocations to the priesthood and religious life. And thank God that you have a priest who is able to fill in when needed.

 

[FAB]

The leeway that a celebrant has is rather limited. In fact, that leeway is confined only to the options given to him in the Roman Missal and the Lectionary. It is not carte blanche. Redemptionis Sacramentum, and even the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy are very clear about that.

Deviation from the norms causes a lot of harm, as noted in the preamble to Redemptionis Sacramentum. It causes confusion among the faithful and a disunity that ruptures the Mass. This has nothing to do with scrupulosity.

Regarding your earlier post, the widow’s mite has nothing at all to do with the cleansing of the Temple. Those were two entirely different matters.

The original complaints in this thread about a priest are minor. It is hard to say that any harm was done. He changed a word, added a phrase, he may have shorted the gospel by forgetting the turn the page. It was still a valid mass, Heaven and earth was joined. I was trying to tell the poster not to loose sight of what happened.

My point of the widows mite and cleansing the temple both were critisizing the then existing temple system.

Peace,
FAB

 

[milkbar]

FAB;5813923:

With all due respect, yes it is

Cardinal Arinze "The local church should be conscious that church worship is not really the same as what we sing in a bar, or what we sing in a convention for youth. Therefore it should influence the type of instrument used, the type of music used. I will not now pronounce and say never guitars; that would be rather severe. But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass

."
boston-catholic-journal.com/mass-is-not-entertainment-by-francis-cardinal-arinze.htm

Pope Benedict “Pope Benedict XVI has called for an end to electric guitars and modern music being played in church and demanded a return to traditional choirs and Gregorian chants.”
nysun.com/foreign/pope-opposes-guitar-riffs-at-church/35136/

Sadly we still wish to use guitars and do what makes us feel good

I have to wonder if, when he says “guitar music,” Cardinal Arinze is calling to mind rock music, the sort of thing you would expect on the radio. That would seem to be the same as what Pope Benedict XVI is thinking of when he speaks of “electric guitars and modern music.”

There is such a thing as classical guitar. Acoustic guitar played tastefully is absolutely beautiful.

 

[japhy]

The original complaints in this thread about a priest are minor.

Perhaps to you, but not to the Congregation whose duty it is to oversee the liturgy.

During the Eucharistic Prayer he always adds “May the Body and Blood of Christ allow us to more and more embody Him in our time.”

Whereas Redemptionis Sacramentum 51 says:
Only those Eucharistic Prayers are to be used which are found in the Roman Missal or are legitimately approved by the Apostolic See, and according to the manner and the terms set forth by it. “It is not to be tolerated that some Priests take upon themselves the right to compose their own Eucharistic Prayers” or to change the same texts approved by the Church, or to introduce others composed by private individuals.
That particular offense is “objectively to be considered among grave matters”. (RS 173)

It was still a valid mass…

I’m not convinced by that tired argument.

 

[MonkeyTape]

The leeway that a celebrant has is rather limited. In fact, that leeway is confined only to the options given to him in the Roman Missal and the Lectionary. It is not carte blanche. Redemptionis Sacramentum, and even the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy are very clear about that.

Deviation from the norms causes a lot of harm, as noted in the preamble to Redemptionis Sacramentum. It causes confusion among the faithful and a disunity that ruptures the Mass. This has nothing to do with scrupulosity.

Regarding your earlier post, the widow’s mite has nothing at all to do with the cleansing of the Temple. Those were two entirely different matters.

That is what I was feeling. I was confused and distracted which made me feel like I was there but not participating. Exactly.

 

[MonkeyTape]

The original complaints in this thread about a priest are minor. It is hard to say that any harm was done. He changed a word, added a phrase, he may have shorted the gospel by forgetting the turn the page. It was still a valid mass, Heaven and earth was joined. I was trying to tell the poster not to loose sight of what happened.

My point of the widows mite and cleansing the temple both were critisizing the then existing temple system.

Peace,
FAB

That is good advice, I just replied to another post and said these things distracted me and confused me. They made me feel disconnected from the mass, Heaven and Earth were joined as you said, however I feel like I missed it. While part of it was the things that were happening around me, maybe I can try to look past some things and see what is actually still happening.

I find it hard to excuse what happened in my mind, but regardless of that Jesus was present.