Had Mary said NO

  • Thread starter Thread starter Marcin_L
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Marcin_L

Guest
What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

We are taught that her FIAT was necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will and that Lord’s suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection would not have happened without her.

What about other women? Would God have not been able to find another one had Mary said no?
 
Mary would not have said no.

Mary was full of grace, completely conformed to the will of God.

Mary’s will was the same as God’s will, that the Second Person of the Trinity be brought into the world by her.

Anyone perfectly full of grace, perfectly conformed to the will of God cannot say no to something God wills that he do.

-Tim-
 
Mary would not have said no.

Mary was full of grace, completely conformed to the will of God.

Mary’s will was the same as God’s will, that the Second Person of the Trinity be brought into the world by her.

Anyone perfectly full of grace, perfectly conformed to the will of God cannot say no to something God wills that he do.

-Tim-
I respectfully disagree. Mary could have said “no”. She could have said that she did not want to be the mother of Jesus. Otherwise, she would not have free will, and would thus not have been fully human.

Adam and Eve were full of grace in the Garden, yet they did not do God’s will.

To answer the OP’s question, I do not think that God would have asked another woman to do it if Mary had said “no”. Of course, that is only speculation on my part.
 
“Many holy fathers (Sts. Jerome, Cyril, Ephrem, Augustine) say that the consent of Mary was essential to the redemption. It was the will of God, St. Thomas says (Summa III:30), that the redemption of mankind should depend upon the consent of the Virgin Mary. This does not mean that God in His plans was bound by the will of a creature, and that man would not have been redeemed, if Mary had not consented. It only means that the consent of Mary was foreseen from all eternity, and therefore was received as essential into the design of God.”

Catholic Encyclopedia
 
What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

We are taught that her FIAT was necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will and that Lord’s suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection would not have happened without her.

What about other women? Would God have not been able to find another one had Mary said no?
If Mary had said no we would have been doomed:)

God already knew she was going to say yes

This is just another what if question. I am pretty sure God could have chosen another woman, but the truth is that Mary is God’s perfect creation.

Mary was conceived immaculately, and thus she had the graces to not sin. Because God had planned Mary before she was born God had chosen Mary already.
 
What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

We are taught that her FIAT was necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will and that Lord’s suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection would not have happened without her.

What about other women? Would God have not been able to find another one had Mary said no?
We do not know because it is not part of what has been revealed to the Church.
 
If Mary had said no we would have been doomed:)

God already knew she was going to say yes

This is just another what if question. I am pretty sure God could have chosen another woman, but the truth is that Mary is God’s perfect creation.

Mary was conceived immaculately, and thus she had the graces to not sin. Because God had planned Mary before she was born God had chosen Mary already.
Wouldn’t this compromise Mary’s free decision and imply that she was just a tool with no free will?
 
Mary would not have said no.

Mary was full of grace, completely conformed to the will of God.

Mary’s will was the same as God’s will, that the Second Person of the Trinity be brought into the world by her.

Anyone perfectly full of grace, perfectly conformed to the will of God cannot say no to something God wills that he do.

-Tim-
Let me quote this article from boston-catholic-journal.com which led me to asking my question:

"The Unum Necessarium (the one thing necessary)

Mary is the one person ever to contribute, to truly give, the one thing to God that was not already His, even as He first imparted it to her. “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof: the world, and all they that dwell therein.” (Psalm 24.1)

It was something necessary to the final and perfect fulfillment of the will of God. In fact, it was the one thing that God created but did not possess. Apart from it, the suffering, crucifixion, death, and resurrection — absolutely necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will for the salvation of the world, for the redemption of souls from bondage to sin and death — was impossible: her very flesh! Mary assented to the will of God: “Et Verbum caro factum est”, “And the Word became flesh!”

Jesus Christ took the substance of His sacred humanity from Mary. It was in this Sacred Humanity that Christ preached, healed, raised from the dead, gave sight to the blind. It is also in His Sacred Humanity that Christ suffered, was crucified, and died for our sins and through which He purchased our salvation. Had Mary not consented to the will of God; had she refused to be the Mother of God’s Son (Who Himself is One with the Father), the one thing absolutely necessary to our salvation — the flesh and the humanity which Jesus Christ assumed, and through which alone salvation came into the world in the Person of Jesus Christ — could never have been possible.

“God is a Spirit” (St. John 4.24), and spirit is not possessed of flesh together with all the limitations inherent within it. God is infinite. Flesh is not. God is everywhere present, flesh is not. God is perfect felicity, which is to say, God in Himself has ever been, is, and ever will be, perfectly happy, unassailed by suffering, and pain cannot touch upon Him — but flesh is not! For this reason, Saint Paul tells us that Jesus Christ, “Who being in the form of God … emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2.5-7). How? Through the Incarnation. Through whom? Through Mary who contributed her flesh (giving Christ, Who had emptied Himself of “the form of God”, the “form of a servant”; in fact the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 through Whom mankind was redeemed. Only in the humanity that Christ took from Mary alone, could He possibly suffer … even die!

Theologians speak of this in terms of the “Hypostatic Union”, or the union of God and Man in the Person Jesus Christ. Christ is both! But it was in His humanity that He suffered and redeemed the world — the humanity, the flesh, given Him by Mary alone. In her assent to the will of God, in her “Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum”, “Be it done to me according to your word” (Saint Luke 1.38), she, the lowly “handmaid of the Lord”, gave to God the one thing that Spirit does not, cannot, possess: flesh. Her flesh — which the Son of God assumed, becoming through her assent, “True God and True Man.”

I find the notion of Mary freely oferring something that God had created but not yet possessed especially intriguing!
 
Think of it like this:
You have a child and you have a candy bar. It is your daughter’s favorite. You tell her she can have it if she wants.

She has everything she needs to make the choice. She is old enough - not an infant. She has teeth and hands and arms that work. You have provided the candy. You ask her if she wants to have the candy. She knows that if she has the candy, she will eat it. She has freewill. She can say “no, thank you.” Will she? Of course not.

To our Blessed Mother, doing the will of God was like candy to her. It was what she wanted, what she desired. God gave her everything she needed to be the Mother of his Son. She could say “no, thank you”, but because it was her favorite candy, she didn’t.
If she had, would God have made another way for us to be redeemed? Of course he would have. What would that have been? We’ll never know, because the fact of the matter is, the Blessed Mother didn’t say no. She chose to be the Mother of God, even though she didn’t fully understand just what that meant when she said yes. If she had known, at age 13, 14, 15, that she would one day stand at the foot of a Roman cross watching the Only Begotten Son of God suffer and die, would she have had the courage to say, yes? Possibly not. That’s why, just like all of us, God only tells us what we need to know when we need to know it. Otherwise we would run screaming from the room. By the time she got to the foot of the cross, she was prepared for what was happening. That’s not to say she liked it, just that she was prepared for it.
Kris
 
What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

We are taught that her FIAT was necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will and that Lord’s suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection would not have happened without her.

What about other women? Would God have not been able to find another one had Mary said no?
Hello Marcini
Mary was as free to say no as anyone else. Someone has said that her will was to do God’s will.

If we look at the genealogy in Luke 3. It looks at who Jesus’ real Father is. Immediately after that the devil quizzed him about being the son of God. That genealogy goes back to Nathan the son of David. The gospel was written to Gentiles.

The gospel of Matthew was written to Jews who would have expected to see the Jewish tradition in the genealogy. It states 14 and 14 and 14 generations. Matthew was a tax collector good at sums. It has a generation short. 14, 14 and 13. That genealogy can only belong to Mary. It goes back to King Solomon, son of David.
So on one side by adoption Jesus goes back through Nathan to David and on the other through King Solomon to David.

Jesus is the true King of the Jews.

Mary is the Queen of heaven I also tend to think of her as the Queen of the Jews. She was what the House Israel were preparing for. A woman who would be holy to give birth to the Messiah. God knew her choice before she did. The chance of her saying no isn’t there.

God bless
 
Think of it like this:
You have a child and you have a candy bar. It is your daughter’s favorite. You tell her she can have it if she wants.

She has everything she needs to make the choice. She is old enough - not an infant. She has teeth and hands and arms that work. You have provided the candy. You ask her if she wants to have the candy. She knows that if she has the candy, she will eat it. She has freewill. She can say “no, thank you.” Will she? Of course not.

To our Blessed Mother, doing the will of God was like candy to her. It was what she wanted, what she desired. God gave her everything she needed to be the Mother of his Son. She could say “no, thank you”, but because it was her favorite candy, she didn’t.
If she had, would God have made another way for us to be redeemed? Of course he would have. What would that have been? We’ll never know, because the fact of the matter is, the Blessed Mother didn’t say no. She chose to be the Mother of God, even though she didn’t fully understand just what that meant when she said yes. If she had known, at age 13, 14, 15, that she would one day stand at the foot of a Roman cross watching the Only Begotten Son of God suffer and die, would she have had the courage to say, yes? Possibly not. That’s why, just like all of us, God only tells us what we need to know when we need to know it. Otherwise we would run screaming from the room. By the time she got to the foot of the cross, she was prepared for what was happening. That’s not to say she liked it, just that she was prepared for it.
Kris
I generally agree. Maybe except for comparing the " sword that will pierce your heart" to candy.
 
Who knows…maybe one or more young women said no first, before Mary was approached.

After all, if the scene did happen as described in writings in the Christian canon, most teenaged girls might have been afraid and thought they were imagining it all. Or, would not have wanted or felt they’d be good at such a responsibility.
:whacky:
 
God had Mary predestined from the beginning of time to be the Theotokos. For every OT example, there is a better example in the new covenant. Just as he knew Eve would forsake the tree of life for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he knew Mary would help bring THE tree of life into existence. Not that hard people. Sounds like a protestant objection. No offense intended to the OP.
 
I have just realised something that has been with me all day.

I watched the film, A song of Bernadette, last night. Monsignuer Peyramale couldn’t get his head round how the lady in the visions could say she is The Immaculate Conception.

That truth coupled with Mary going back to King David eliminates any chance of her saying no. Giving birth to Jesus is what she was born for.
 
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived “full of grace” in her mother’s womb as a singular special grace from God because he knew that she would assent to the message of the angel. Since God exists outside of time, He knew what her response would be before she made it and even before she was born. It was because of this that she was conceived immaculately. It isn’t logical or conceivable that she could have said “no.”

TimothyH is perfectly correct when he says; *"Mary’s will was the same as God’s will, that the Second Person of the Trinity be brought into the world by her.

Anyone perfectly full of grace, perfectly conformed to the will of God cannot say no to something God wills that he do. "*
 
I agree with the ones that say that mother Mary could have said “NO”, because otherwise she would have been deprived of her free will, but then, look what happened to Jonah, he said “NO” and he ended up riding inside a fish to the place where he didn’t want to go. Again, this is only something to think about until we ask the Lord ourselves.
 
It’s like asking what would have happened if Judas had not betrayed the Lord. What had to be fulfilled was fulfilled.
Hello R_C
I see Judas in a different light. I believe God could have chosen from many Judases. Judas was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Depending how one looks at it.

“God is in control” That was said to me during the week. Before the world was, God thought of all of us. He knew the free will choices that each one of us would make and will make. Jesus came in to the word as the true King of the Jews. He was the true inheritor of the throne of David. That part about him had to be fulfilled. Jesus also required going back to David by adoption, Joseph’s role needed fulfilling too. Mary and Joseph choosing each other comes in to it too. They had to have the right attitude of heart to be trusted with the infant Jesus.

God bless
 
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived “full of grace” in her mother’s womb as a singular special grace from God because he knew that she would assent to the message of the angel. Since God exists outside of time, He knew what her response would be before she made it and even before she was born. It was because of this that she was conceived immaculately. It isn’t logical or conceivable that she could have said “no.”

TimothyH is perfectly correct when he says; *"Mary’s will was the same as God’s will, that the Second Person of the Trinity be brought into the world by her.

Anyone perfectly full of grace, perfectly conformed to the will of God cannot say no to something God wills that he do. "*
But yet Adam and Eve were without sin and were thus full of grace and they sinned, said “no” to God. I acknowledge that God knew what Mary would do, but that does not negate the fact that Mary who was human, had free will and could have said “no”. She was not some robot that had to say yes.

If she could not have said “no” then she would not have done anything remarkable.
 
Everyone want’s to focus on free will, but no one wants to focus on trusting God.

Mary simply trusted God completely. “Let it be done to me” is the same as “I trust you Lord.”.

Adam and Eve didn’t trust God.

-Tim-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top