Had Mary said NO

[fredystairs]

Everyone want’s to focus on free will, but no one wants to focus on trusting God.

Mary simply trusted God completely. “Let it be done to me” is the same as “I trust you Lord.”.

Adam and Eve didn’t trust God.

-Tim-

Don’t disagree with you – Mary trusted, Adam and Eve didn’t. However, trust is an act of the free will. Without free will there can be no trust.

 

[R_C]

Hello R_C
I see Judas in a different light. I believe God could have chosen from many Judases. Judas was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Depending how one looks at it.

“God is in control” That was said to me during the week. Before the world was, God thought of all of us. He knew the free will choices that each one of us would make and will make. Jesus came in to the word as the true King of the Jews. He was the true inheritor of the throne of David. That part about him had to be fulfilled. Jesus also required going back to David by adoption, Joseph’s role needed fulfilling too. Mary and Joseph choosing each other comes in to it too. They had to have the right attitude of heart to be trusted with the infant Jesus.

God bless

No, Judas was not one among many. He was where he was supposed to be, at the time he was supposed to be, and nobody else throughout the history of humanity could have done what he did. Remember what Christ said:

I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Predestination is a great mystery, as you yourself express above. Everyone has a role, and notwithstanding the divine gift of free will - which truly makes us in God’s image and likeness - ultimately God knows through divine omniscience everything. He knew that no matter how great graces He’d give to Judas, he’d have betrayed him and killed himself. He also knew that our most kind Lady would have steadily agreed to be the mother of the Christ, thus even before her birth He decided to keep her free from the stain of original sin. His divine providence called Joseph to be the chaste spouse of the Blessed Virgin.

Our Lady simply would not say no, just like Christ simply would reject the people’s attempts to “proclaim him king”, or the high priest’s public challenge to “get down from the cross” in order to be acknowledged officially as the Messiah. I don’t see the point of these questions

 

[klm120861]

Well…it’s quite impressive that you know exactly what Mary is thinking and feeling, considering she never described it herself.
Nevertheless…I’d hesitate, along with the other poster, to use the candy bar analogy. After all, in the few lines in the entire bible about this moment, the Luke writer describes Mary at first as being “greatly troubled” when Gabriel approaches her…implies she is afraid (Gabriel tells her, “do not be afraid…”)…and then shows she is confused and incredulous (“how will this be?” she asks).
It just seems a little different than a parent dangling a favorite candy bar in front of their young girl and asking her if she wants to eat it.

The analogy is strictly applicable to her character, her make up and the gifts she had been given by God that made the probability of her saying no as unlikely as a child refusing candy. Of course she was troubled. Leaving aside the part that Gabriel was an angel, even if he appeared to her in human form, she still would have been troubled at being spoken to by a total stranger. Especially one who knew her name. Of course she was incredulous, however, I personally think she was less incredulous than simply seeking more information. In today’s words, I picture it as something like, “Okay…there’s just one problem. I’m a virgin. So how is this going to happen where I can remain chaste and still have a child?” The reason I think this is because, as a devout young woman, she would have known all of the prophecies regarding a virgin conceiving a child. Hearing that a virgin would conceive wasn’t unusual. Hearing that she was that virgin was unusual. And any woman would want to know just how a virgin was going to conceive and remain a virgin. As far as comparing a sword piercing her heart to candy, as the other poster mentioned, she didn’t receive that prophecy until after Jesus was born. By then she had obviously already said “yes”.
Kris

 

[Timothysis]

But yet Adam and Eve were without sin and were thus full of grace and they sinned, said “no” to God. I acknowledge that God knew what Mary would do, but that does not negate the fact that Mary who was human, had free will and could have said “no”. She was not some robot that had to say yes.

If she could not have said “no” then she would not have done anything remarkable.

Adam and Eve are just characters in a story; Mary was/is a true historical person. As the Immaculate Conception, her entire being was in union with the will of God. While she was not some robot that had to say yes, as the Immaculate Conception in union with God and a part of God’s plan of salvation, the only answer for her was what she said; “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to my according to thy word.” The fact that she has free will doesn’t mean that it could’a been a yes or no situation because being full of grace means that she was destined to respond to God in the affirmative.

It isn’t that she "could not have said “no,” it is that she simply wouldn’t have.

 

[fredystairs]

Adam and Eve are just characters in a story; Mary was/is a true historical person.

So are you saying that Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, and the Fall are a fiction? Just trying to figure out what you’re saying here.

 

[fisherman_carl]

What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

We are taught that her FIAT was necessary to the fulfillment of God’s will and that Lord’s suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection would not have happened without her.

What about other women? Would God have not been able to find another one had Mary said no?

It would be unlikely for Mary to say no. Not an impossibility but very unlikely since she was chosen by God, meaning she was hand picked from among women and he knew her heart. Remember when God chose David he was looking for someone after his own heart. To be the mother of the Messiah would be a great honor for any Jewish woman. One has to realize that God knew she would say yes. She was likely poor so as to not have anything between her and God get in the way.

So I don’t think there were other women before Mary who said no. And I don’t think God was worried that he would need plan B.

 

[Timothysis]

So are you saying that Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, and the Fall are a fiction? Just trying to figure out what you’re saying here.

I am saying that they are cultural mythology. The Church does not teach a literal understanding of the Creation Story as factual history. It is an attempt to convey spiritual truths to the people of the time in a manner that they would recognize and understand.

To say that Adam and Eve are “fiction” is to miss the point of the story.

 

[fredystairs]

I am saying that they are cultural mythology. The Church does not teach a literal understanding of the Creation Story as factual history. It is an attempt to convey spiritual truths to the people of the time in a manner that they would recognize and understand.

To say that Adam and Eve are “fiction” is to miss the point of the story.

Sorry, still comfused. What do you mean by “cultrual mythology” and “to miss the point of the story.”?

 

[Timothysis]

Sorry, still comfused. What do you mean by “cultrual mythology” and “to miss the point of the story.”?

A myth is a story told to illustrate a point. It usually isn’t “fact based” though they can have roots in historical fact. The best example of mythology is the classical Greeks. Over time they devised stories to explain the world as best they could in their cultural setting. Adam and Eve are the same thing to the early Hebrews; they explain their relationship with Yaweh in a way that they would readily recognize and understand based on their culture.

To simply say that a myth is “fiction” is to fail to recognize the point. Though it may not be placed in historical reality, there is still a truth or a “realness” to it. We don’t brand everything that doesn’t come out of the encyclopedia as “fiction” and we shouldn’t do it with the early stories in Genesis. The goal of these early stories is to discover what they are trying to tell us, not how. The Church simply teaches that the “first” man and woman - the first individuals with an immortal soul - are Adam and Eve. She does not teach that everything went down as described in Genesis.

 

[Ignatius]

What would have hapened if Mary had said NO to the incarnation?

God, being omincient, already knew exactly what she would say " Να το κάνει σε μένα σύμφωνα με το λόγο σου." or " יהיה זה לי כמילה שלך" or “Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.”