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Aramis
Guest
To put the dogma of Purgatory in byzantine terms, it is the place or state where posthumous theosis continues until one is admitted to heaven.
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jlhargus
Guest
, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he FOR OUR PROFIT, that we might be PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward IT YIELDETH the peaceable FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which are exercised thereby.]
JL: Correct, I was not giving a scriptural defense of purgatory. I was giving scripture to point to the fact God chastises his children IF NEEDED, FOR OUR PROFIT, that we might be PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS, because suffering yields the FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.]
JL: Then what does it imply, what is the purpose of those prayers? Praying for the dead is USELESS AND SILLY for those in hell or those in heaven beholding the face of God.
JL: You need to back up a few lines to get the context. Here is St Gregory’s SERMON ON THE DEAD, as I originally posted:
Gregory of Nyssa
“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]). catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
JL: I think St Gregory is quite clear, about a state of purification. To paraphrase he says, when, after his departure out of the body, one is not able to partake of divinity UNTIL PURGED of the filthy contagion IN HIS SOUL by PURIFYING FIRE. St Gregory could not be talking about the final judgement as he says, when, after his departure OUT OF THE BODY, at the final judgement all will be in their resurrected bodies. He goes on to say UNTIL PURGED IN HIS SOUL BY PURIFYING FIRE. [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:] We have a personal judgement in the SOUL at death then after the resurrection is the final judgement.
Sounds a lot like 1 COR 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.
JL: Sorry but scripture and St Gregory a bishop in the East plus other early fathers both East and West are not post schism.
In Christ prayers and peace.
L
Leo_The_Great
Guest
JL,
The point that is trying to be made by mickey is that There is only heaven and hell. Period.
However…Hell has many abodes.
So, those who are sinners are punished. Yet for those punished, if any’s heart would be capable of turning toward God, they would have been purified, while those who are formally disposed toward enmity with God will always have been in “hell.”
And in Eastern Orthodox Theology, there is no indication that we need to believe that our wills are suddenly magically hardened into an immovable crystalline state after death. If anything, death deepens our understanding of life and the nature of our relationship to Christ so that we may be able to make some kind of final decision in light of that.
And the Christian east has consistently taught that after death we journey towards God: some more slowly, others more quickly. This can be seen in the semi-erroneous Toll-house doctrines Some Fans of Father Seraphim Rose are so wild about…
Scripture indicates this in 2 Corinthians 3:18 ,that our relationship With God after death is not one of immediate exhaustive knowledge, but a growth into deeper and deeper perfection:
"But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord. "
But to go from one degree of perfection to another is to be constantly “Purified”, made able to accept more and more. So the purification of the Soul doesn’t stop in heaven, rather, sin has been left behind, now let us turn ourselves toward being freed from weakness. Weakness is not sin. There are weak souls in heaven. Do they never grow?
1 Cor. 15:41-45
"41 One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit. "
1 Cor. 13:9-11
"9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. "
Very clear progression of states here. And nothing to indicate any sense of time, whether immediate, or long enduring.
It seems to me that to address only Hell heaven and purgatory is to be rather myopic about a process that incorporates different measures for different individuals: SOme need a gentle remedy: SOme need 200 hours of darkness and isolation, some need spiritual fire, some need only an embrace from Christ.
Picture the whole process. Not just parts of it. Life and death are journeys into the arms of Christ, if we are disposed properly and established in Faith hope and love.
For the Orthodox, nothing is final 'til judgement day.
I like that.
The point that is trying to be made by mickey is that There is only heaven and hell. Period.
However…Hell has many abodes.
So, those who are sinners are punished. Yet for those punished, if any’s heart would be capable of turning toward God, they would have been purified, while those who are formally disposed toward enmity with God will always have been in “hell.”
And in Eastern Orthodox Theology, there is no indication that we need to believe that our wills are suddenly magically hardened into an immovable crystalline state after death. If anything, death deepens our understanding of life and the nature of our relationship to Christ so that we may be able to make some kind of final decision in light of that.
And the Christian east has consistently taught that after death we journey towards God: some more slowly, others more quickly. This can be seen in the semi-erroneous Toll-house doctrines Some Fans of Father Seraphim Rose are so wild about…
Scripture indicates this in 2 Corinthians 3:18 ,that our relationship With God after death is not one of immediate exhaustive knowledge, but a growth into deeper and deeper perfection:
"But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord. "
But to go from one degree of perfection to another is to be constantly “Purified”, made able to accept more and more. So the purification of the Soul doesn’t stop in heaven, rather, sin has been left behind, now let us turn ourselves toward being freed from weakness. Weakness is not sin. There are weak souls in heaven. Do they never grow?
1 Cor. 15:41-45
"41 One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit. "
1 Cor. 13:9-11
"9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. "
Very clear progression of states here. And nothing to indicate any sense of time, whether immediate, or long enduring.
It seems to me that to address only Hell heaven and purgatory is to be rather myopic about a process that incorporates different measures for different individuals: SOme need a gentle remedy: SOme need 200 hours of darkness and isolation, some need spiritual fire, some need only an embrace from Christ.
Picture the whole process. Not just parts of it. Life and death are journeys into the arms of Christ, if we are disposed properly and established in Faith hope and love.
For the Orthodox, nothing is final 'til judgement day.
I like that.
M
Mickey
Guest
It is called theosis-and it is a never ending process.
This is not doctrine. It is theological speculation–much like the RC teaching of limbo.
M
Mickey
Guest
A place? I was never taught such a thing as a Byzantine Catholic.
Theosis continues until…? Theosis is never ending.
M
Mickey
Guest
The journey of the soul after death and before the final judgement is pretty much a mystery—that is how the Orthodox Church leaves it. Scripture says nothing of purgatory–even though you attempt to make it imply something. The great councils say nothing. The consensus of the Fathers say nothing. We pray for the dead asking God to have mercy—and we leave it up to God. Nothing more–nothing less.
Oops–I said I was done with this thread. Okay–I’m really done now.
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Leo_The_Great
Guest
Mickey, I think it is important for you to realize that as Catholics WE can agree with YOU.
I will say it again: THere are only two aspects of “Purgatory” Catholics have to believe in:
I will say it again: THere are only two aspects of “Purgatory” Catholics have to believe in:
- That the righteous dead in need of purification undergo it
- Prayer helps them
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Aramis
Guest
The dogma doesn’t define whether purgatory is a place or a state, but leaves the exact nature of it undefined, by saying it is either a place or state.
Toll-house theologumenon makes it a series of places.
More traditional theologumenia make it a state.
In any case the Dogma doesn’t declare it specifically either, but allows that it could be either.
Really? I somehow doubt that.Oops–I said I was done with this thread. Okay–I’m really done now.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Well if the soul is on a journey it is in a STATE, or place if you want, other than hell or beholding the face of God in heaven, we call that state purgatory, you call it theosis. The scripture AND The Fathers refer to it as prison and passing thru fire.The journey of the soul after death and before the final judgement is pretty much a mystery—that is how the Orthodox Church leaves it. Scripture says nothing of purgatory–even though you attempt to make it imply something. The great councils say nothing. The consensus of the Fathers say nothing. We pray for the dead asking God to have mercy—and we leave it up to God. Nothing more–nothing less. Oops–I said I was done with this thread. Okay–I’m really done now.
If you pray, for God to have mercy on the dead, that indicates you believe prayer can help the dead in their STATE of theosis TOWARD God. Also it indicates you believe they are in NEED. All that is defined on prugatory by the Church is: Purification after death involves some kind of pain, purification can be assisted by prayers and offerings by the living to God.
This is all the Church has defined about purgatory everything else is speculation. Could you tell me what the EO theological definition of the Greek word theosis means in English? Thanks.
JL: Would you point out your scripture for theosis? Point out what the great councils said about theosis? Point out what the consensus of the Fathers said about theosis. Sorry but scripture, St Gregory a bishop in the East plus other early fathers both East and West speak of a state of purgation as prison and fire. Origen’s reference to 1Cor is unmistakable as is, also Tertullian’s reference to Mt5 is clear.
Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).
Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).
freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1776418/posts
I think St Gregory is quite clear, about a state of purification. To paraphrase he says, when, after his departure out of the body, one is not able to partake of divinity UNTIL PURGED of the filthy contagion IN HIS SOUL by PURIFYING FIRE. St Gregory could not be talking about the final judgement as he says, when, after his departure OUT OF THE BODY, at the final judgement all will be in their resurrected bodies. He goes on to say UNTIL PURGED IN HIS SOUL BY PURIFYING FIRE. [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:] We have a personal judgement in the SOUL at death then after the resurrection is the final judgement.
Sounds a lot like 1 COR 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.
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Vico
Guest
I believe that the penal terminology is a rationalization only.
The departed require forgiveness of sins and they look for peace in Christ.
Particular judgement: that judgement that occurs immediately after death that determines the place of residence of our soul.
Punishment is penalty after a judgement. (dictionary)
Penalty: the disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition: neglected his health and paid the penalty. (dictionary)
In this case, experiencing dread rather than peace, after the particular judgement is a painful consequence, but not like that which could occur at the Great Judgement.
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Gregory_I
Guest
So, in the Orthodox view, what happens to those souls still in hell, but potentially capable of being purified during the second coming? Do they lose their chance of salvation through the the prayers of the faithful? Or does Christ make up what is lacking?
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Leo_The_Great
Guest
I wonder that too gregory I what happens to the souls who could be purified but are not at the second coming?
I think our problem might be thinking that the internediate state of the dead is one of stasis, but I believe it is dynamic, which means upon the moment of your death you are moving toward Christ if you are so disposed, and to encounter him in the Second coming…who knows? He may rush your theosis, or things may simply continue the same in a mysterious way, or, since the abode of the dead will be abolished, he may allow the same in a glorified state: Presumably with new bodies come clean souls?
I think our problem might be thinking that the internediate state of the dead is one of stasis, but I believe it is dynamic, which means upon the moment of your death you are moving toward Christ if you are so disposed, and to encounter him in the Second coming…who knows? He may rush your theosis, or things may simply continue the same in a mysterious way, or, since the abode of the dead will be abolished, he may allow the same in a glorified state: Presumably with new bodies come clean souls?
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dcastlen50
Guest
Can someone answer this: Is it Catholic dogma that hell has fire?
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stbruderklaus
Guest
I think that the way this thread has proposed the concept of Purgatory to our Orthodox brethren, makes the concept nearly palatable, even for Lutherans.
However, an observation came to me as I read through this. If, indeed, there is such a thing/place/state as Purgatory, in line with what St. Paul writes regarding a purifying fire (also, conferring with the references from the venerable Gregory of Nyssa and the often questionable Origen) I think Lutherans are preparing for it as best they can. Here’s my reasoning:
Lutherans, confessionally speaking, do not offer any of their good works to God as something worthy of reward. Our only expectation and hope after departing this flesh, is to appear before our Lord having fallen on our faces, declaring all our own works as nothing but filthy rags, and pleading solely for the grace of Christ. So, if at that point we find out there’s anything other than hay, wood, or stubble that has been built by us through the power of the Spirit, it will be a pleasant surprise. Lutherans teach that for our good works, we give thanks to God for doing them through us; and for our evil works, we offer repentence and beg for mercy. With that understanding, if there is such a thing as Purgatory, it should be a happy if painful corrective for us.
What I would also offer, is that where Lutherans often think themselves strongest, is likely where we will feel the pain of any potential purgation the worst-- our confessional confidence. I once remarked to one of my parishioners, that the closest I have come to appreciating a concept of Purgatory, is to recognize that in that moment I meet Christ face to face after leaving the flesh, the pain of being purged of all my wrong ideas I thought were so right, will be blistering and terrifying… as I’m sure it will be for all who cross the veil.
Grace and peace.
However, an observation came to me as I read through this. If, indeed, there is such a thing/place/state as Purgatory, in line with what St. Paul writes regarding a purifying fire (also, conferring with the references from the venerable Gregory of Nyssa and the often questionable Origen) I think Lutherans are preparing for it as best they can. Here’s my reasoning:
Lutherans, confessionally speaking, do not offer any of their good works to God as something worthy of reward. Our only expectation and hope after departing this flesh, is to appear before our Lord having fallen on our faces, declaring all our own works as nothing but filthy rags, and pleading solely for the grace of Christ. So, if at that point we find out there’s anything other than hay, wood, or stubble that has been built by us through the power of the Spirit, it will be a pleasant surprise. Lutherans teach that for our good works, we give thanks to God for doing them through us; and for our evil works, we offer repentence and beg for mercy. With that understanding, if there is such a thing as Purgatory, it should be a happy if painful corrective for us.
What I would also offer, is that where Lutherans often think themselves strongest, is likely where we will feel the pain of any potential purgation the worst-- our confessional confidence. I once remarked to one of my parishioners, that the closest I have come to appreciating a concept of Purgatory, is to recognize that in that moment I meet Christ face to face after leaving the flesh, the pain of being purged of all my wrong ideas I thought were so right, will be blistering and terrifying… as I’m sure it will be for all who cross the veil.
Grace and peace.
D
dcastlen50
Guest
Can someone tell me if it is a dogma of the Church that there IS fire in hell?
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Ghosty
Guest
There is no dogma on this question, however Scripture speaks of it being fiery. That could be metaphorical, or it could be literalistic; we honestly don’t know. Purely spiritual matters (such as the afterlife) are very difficult to convey using our material-oriented languages, after all.
Peace and God bless!
C
crazzeto
Guest
Not entirly clear from reading the CCC,
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1035
though the punishments of hell are most typically described in the sense of an “eternal fire” as referenced in paragraph 1035. But reading 1035-1037 as a whole, it’s not possible to say from this that the Church is teaching that there will be literal fire as we think of it here on earth in hell.
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dcastlen50
Guest
Thank you:thumbsup:
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Shin
Guest
“The majority of Fathers, the Schoolmen, and the majority of modern theologians believe it to be a physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire.”
- Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
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Genesis315
Guest
I don’t think there is as much difference on this matter as some polemicists on each side would like us to believe. For example, compare the following two Eastern Orthodox authorities on this topic with the Florentine and Tridentine defintions of Purgatory:
First, in his First Homily on Purgatorial Fire, St. Mark of Ephesus stated the following: “But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.” And he also adds that these pains are “more torment than any fire…terror…that is much more tormenting and punishing than anything else.”
And then there is the Confession of Dositheus from the Council of Jerusalem in 1672:
“And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers <152> of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.”
First, in his First Homily on Purgatorial Fire, St. Mark of Ephesus stated the following: “But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.” And he also adds that these pains are “more torment than any fire…terror…that is much more tormenting and punishing than anything else.”
And then there is the Confession of Dositheus from the Council of Jerusalem in 1672:
“And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers <152> of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.”
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