Hagia Sophia, Christian Church turned into a Mosque

[Cursilista]

Dear Brothers of the EO,

To get away from the theological debate for a minute. I am interested to find out more about the current status of the Hagia Sophia. Will it ever change from a museum to a functioning church anytime in the future?

Also, How many of your beautiful churches were confiscated by Governments or the muslims over the centuries. I have heard that the Soviet Union closed down or destroyed a number of your places of worship.

Is there anything we can do to help restore these buildings back to christian places of worship.

 

[malphono]

To get away from the theological debate for a minute. I am interested to find out more about the current status of the Hagia Sophia. Will it ever change from a museum to a functioning church anytime in the future?

Not very likely.

Also, How many of your beautiful churches were confiscated by Governments or the muslims over the centuries. I have heard that the Soviet Union closed down or destroyed a number of your places of worship.

It happened and, if one looks at post-Saddam Iraq, apparently it continues to happen. Thinking about the case of Hagia Sophia in particular, one could say that the motivation of the Ottomans was more political (because of what the church building represented) than it was religious. The motivation in other cases, though, seems to have been less political and more vengeful and imbued with hatred.

Is there anything we can do to help restore these buildings back to christian places of worship.

Pray.

 

[Cursilista]

I just found this website which allows you to sign a petition for its restoration as a functioning church. This is truly a magnificant building and should be restored to its rightfull place within christianity.

[Best Memories(name removed by moderator)age.html](Best Memories(name removed by moderator)age.html)

If this was the seat of the Patriach of constantiople, where is the seat today. Is there one seat for the EO or is there more than one. Could you provide names of the churches or basilicas. I would love to see the beauty of the churches of the east.

I plan to attend a mass of the byzantine orthodox. I understand from my diocese that they are in communion with the CC and would not be a problem. I understand that the liturgy is wonderful to behold

 

[Moscati]

I think what you’re thinking of as the “seat” would be the Church of St. George, in Istanbul.

patriarchate.org/patriarchate/stgeorge

 

[5Loaves]

If this was the seat of the Patriach of constantiople, where is the seat today. Is there one seat for the EO or is there more than one. Could you provide names of the churches or basilicas. I would love to see the beauty of the churches of the east.

I plan to attend a mass of the byzantine orthodox. I understand from my diocese that they are in communion with the CC and would not be a problem. I understand that the liturgy is wonderful to behold

His All Holiness Bartholomew, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople was recently interviewed in Constantinople/Istanbol on 60 minutes where he courageously spoke frankly of the crises of the Orthodox Church in Turkey. An important interview, I strongly encourage you to watch it. See also Bob Simon’s Notebook from this interview.

He also appeared Nov 2, 2009 in a studio interview with Charlie Rose (scroll down the “Recent Show” menu to 11/2/09).

It is Byzantine Catholic Churches which are part of the Catholic Church. Orthodox Churches are not in communion with Rome. You can go to Divine Liturgy at both and Great Lent is a wonderful time to do so. At an Eastern Catholic Church you as a Catholic can also receive Holy Eucharist. There are numerous beautiful liturgies during Great Lent at our churches. Most churches have websites and would have calendars with the liturgies posted.

Prayers for the Christian Church in Turkey.

 

[Nine_Two]

I had an opportunity to visit the Hagia Sofia this past spring and it is a beautiful place. Although officially a “museum” it should be noted that in Turkish State Speak, Museum means “Closed religious house that people can enter.” There isn’t (or at least wasn’t) anything on display other than the church itself, although there are a few interesting things in the courtyard outside (St. John Chrysostom’s podium).

The guy who was leading the trip I was on was telling us a few years back he went with an Orthodox priest who tried to sing the Trisagion, when he was told he would be kicked out for doing so (So much for secular… guess they find the “Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” bit offensive or something).

As beautiful as it is, and as nice it is as a symbol of the faith, there are a few wrongs I’d rather the Turkish government right before giving back the Hagia Sofia, such as reopening the Halki seminary (Don’t get me wrong, ideally I’d like to see everything righted at once).

 

[5Loaves]

I had an opportunity to visit the Hagia Sofia this past spring and it is a beautiful place.

What a blessing. I would love to travel to Constantinople one day…

As beautiful as it is, and as nice it is as a symbol of the faith, there are a few wrongs I’d rather the Turkish government right before giving back the Hagia Sofia, such as reopening the Halki seminary (Don’t get me wrong, ideally I’d like to see everything righted at once).

The 60 Minutes interview includes a visit to Halki Seminary and some explanation of its critical importance for the future of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

 

[Nine_Two]

What a blessing. I would love to travel to Constantinople one day…

If you have an appreciation for history it is a wonderful place, if not you’ll probably be bored out of your mind.

The 60 Minutes interview includes a visit to Halki Seminary and some explanation of its critical importance for the future of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

I saw that back just after it aired. It was quite interesting. Too bad it all depends on what Turkey decides, and with Islamists in power, it doesn’t look good.

 

[5Loaves]

What a blessing. I would love to travel to Constantinople one day…
Nine_Two;6351863:

If you have an appreciation for history it is a wonderful place, if not you’ll probably be bored out of your mind.

LOL!!
I’d probably only go for something like the Orientale Lumen Conference. Sadly it seems unlikely that will happen this year - $$$.

 

[Hesychios]

Dear Brothers of the EO,

To get away from the theological debate for a minute. I am interested to find out more about the current status of the Hagia Sophia. Will it ever change from a museum to a functioning church anytime in the future?

The structure is immense, and the Christian community is quite small.

As a practical matter the church could not fill it, or even come close on a feast day. Neither could the church afford to keep it in good repair.

Most of the cathedrals in France are owned by the government, but are used by the church. I think this may be true in Mexico as well. A similar arrangement with a truly secular government in Turkey would be nice, but is extremely unlikely.

The government in Turkey will always represent the majority Muslim attitude toward turning a former mosque (which is what it is, historically) over to the use of non-Muslims for worship, and the Christian community could not make a strong argument on the basis of need for it.

Unless the Turkish people become predominantly Christian some day, Hagia Sophia will never be returned to the Christians in any manner. The true goal should not be old Roman bricks and mortar, but souls.

The Halki seminary is, as Nine_Two pointed out, far more important to focus on immediately, and in my opinion a more realistic goal. So too are the many fine old manuscripts and relics in various places (many in the seminary, no doubt). It is against the law to export these ‘antiquities’, which are thought to belong to the Turkish people. If we can’t get them out of the country by hook or crook we have to work to preserve them from being secured in government warehouses or possibly (no one among us can see the future) abused or destroyed by future overzealous non-Christians.

 

[5Loaves]

The Halki seminary is, as Nine_Two pointed out, far more important to focus on immediately, and in my opinion** a more realistic goal**. So too are the many fine old manuscripts and relics in various places (many in the seminary, no doubt). It is against the law to export these ‘antiquities’, which are thought to belong to the Turkish people. If we can’t get them out of the country by hook or crook** we have to work to preserve them** from being secured in government warehouses or possibly (no one among us can see the future) abused or destroyed by future overzealous non-Christians.

Yes.

Re: Halki Seminary:

Even the U.S. president Barack Obama raised the issue when addressing the Turkish parliament earlier this year. [2009]

“Freedom of religion and expression lead to a strong and vibrant civil society that only strengthens the state,” he said. “Which is why steps like opening Halki Seminary will send such a an important signal inside Turkey and beyond.”

Obama again raised the issue when the Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan visited him this month in Washington.

 

[Aydan]

The chances of Hagia Sophia being turned back into a church are zero and it will not happen and I’m glad because I don’t think it should be. why in the world would anyone advocate turning it back into a church? It’s not even a functioning mosque it’s a museum and on top of that the building has become so fragile it is closed to the public. The fact is the Byzantine Empire ceased to exist a very long time ago and Muslims have a right to have Hagia Sophia as part of their heritage as well. I am vehemently opposed TO ANY EFFORT to change it back into a church. Furthermore I am appalled that some people still insist on referring to Istanbul as Constantinople again it’s been a long time since the Byzantine Empire has existed I cannot believe that the disdain for the Republic ofTurkey runs so deep in our church. You know part of the United States used to belong to Mexico. Do you think we should return all that land too?

 

[malphono]

The chances of Hagia Sophia being turned back into a church are zero and it will not happen and I’m glad because I don’t think it should be. why in the world would anyone advocate turning it back into a church? It’s not even a functioning mosque it’s a museum and on top of that the building has become so fragile it is closed to the public.

Yes, the chances of Hagia Sophia being restored to its rightful purpose are nil. The State, for all that it is officially “secular,” would never in a million years consider such a thing. Besides being an ancient and fragile building, there is also the fact that Hagia Sophia was desecrated by adherents of another religion and still bears the markings of that. It would be almost impossible to restore it to its former glory. But that is as far as I agree.

The fact is the Byzantine Empire ceased to exist a very long time ago and Muslims have a right to have Hagia Sophia as part of their heritage as well. I am vehemently opposed TO ANY EFFORT to change it back into a church.

Hagia Sophia has absolutely nothing to do with Ottoman (or, by extension, Turkish) heritage, and no, the adherents of another religion have no valid claim to claim it. OTOH, Hagia Sophia has everything to do with Christian heritage. It matters not that the Byzantine Empire fell. The Pharaohnic Empire in Ancient Egypt fell, too, and yet the various temples and monuments remain. Even the Arabs did not turn Karnak into a mosque.

Furthermore I am appalled that some people still insist on referring to Istanbul as Constantinople again it’s been a long time since the Byzantine Empire has existed I cannot believe that the disdain for the Republic ofTurkey runs so deep in our church.

Personally, I don’t have a “disdain” for the Turkish Republic (I won’t comment on its Ottoman predecessors), but at the same time I’m not thrilled with its treatment of its ethnic minorities, including Christians. And BTW, I am one of those who still calls Constantinople by its proper name. Even the Ottomans did.

You know part of the United States used to belong to Mexico. Do you think we should return all that land too?

Part of that land was duly purchased, so the former owner has no claim. But, the part that broke away from Mexico in a military conflict, and was later annexed to the US, is a different story.

 

[Kadaveri]

If you have an appreciation for history it is a wonderful place, if not you’ll probably be bored out of your mind.

I saw that back just after it aired. It was quite interesting. Too bad it all depends on what Turkey decides, and with Islamists in power, it doesn’t look good.

Actually most ‘Islamists’ are in favour of reopening the Halki Seminary, which was opened by the very Islamic Ottoman Empire in 1844 and closed in 1971 after a secular nationalist coup. To this day the main opposition to reopening the seminary comes from secularists like (CHP deputy chairman) Onur Oymen who said if we reopen it then Muslims will start demanding that they be allowed to open religious schools as well.

 

[Aydan]

Yes, the chances of Hagia Sophia being restored to its rightful purpose are nil. The State, for all that it is officially “secular,” would never in a million years consider such a thing. Besides being an ancient and fragile building, there is also the fact that Hagia Sophia was desecrated by adherents of another religion and still bears the markings of that. It would be almost impossible to restore it to its former glory. But that is as far as I agree.

Hagia Sophia has absolutely nothing to do with Ottoman (or, by extension, Turkish) heritage, and no, the adherents of another religion have no valid claim to claim it. OTOH, Hagia Sophia has everything to do with Christian heritage. It matters not that the Byzantine Empire fell. The Pharaohnic Empire in Ancient Egypt fell, too, and yet the various temples and monuments remain. Even the Arabs did not turn Karnak into a mosque.

Personally, I don’t have a “disdain” for the Turkish Republic (I won’t comment on its Ottoman predecessors), but at the same time I’m not thrilled with its treatment of its ethnic minorities, including Christians. And BTW, I am one of those who still calls Constantinople by its proper name. Even the Ottomans did.

Part of that land was duly purchased, so the former owner has no claim. But, the part that broke away from Mexico in a military conflict, and was later annexed to the US, is a different story.

I don’t consider that to be a different story in the least the fact is the US gained some of its land through war should we give it back? As far as restoring former glory I don’t really see it that way I never said anything about whether or not it was Ottoman in my mind it does not matter what the Ottomans relationship was to it the fact remains today it is owned by Turkey and the Turkish people. I don’t like how minorities are treated either but that’s a whole different issue which I do not want to debate with you here. As far as I’m concerned since I speak a little Turkish I will not refer to the city under any circumstances as Constantinople because it’s proper Turkish name is Istanbul. As far as I’m concerned it ceased to be Constantinople when the Ottoman Turks took the city. you yourself might not have disdain for Turkey but more often than not people who insist on calling Istanbul by its former name Constantinople also don’t like Turkey in my experience. Turkey is 99% Muslim why should it be turned back into a church that is denying a huge portion of Turkish heritage.

 

[Nine_Two]

The chances of Hagia Sophia being turned back into a church are zero and it will not happen and I’m glad because I don’t think it should be.

I agree the chances are practically zero. I don’t invest a lot of thought into whether or not it happens. In an ideal world Turkey would be Christian again so it wouldn’t even be an issue.

why in the world would anyone advocate turning it back into a church?

Because it was a church and is very much a part of the Greek heritage. I do agree with your later point that it is also part of the Muslim heritage though, which is why I’m not gung-ho about converting it back, nor do I particularly see it as the big issue right now. There are better things we should be focussing efforts on. The Hagia Sofia is just a building in the end.

It’s not even a functioning mosque it’s a museum and on top of that the building has become so fragile it is closed to the public.

It’s certainly not closed to the public, at least it wasn’t last June.

Furthermore I am appalled that some people still insist on referring to Istanbul as Constantinople again it’s been a long time since the Byzantine Empire has existed

It was only officially renamed “Istanbul” after the Young Turks took power. Although Istanbul was the most often local term used, much as Constantinople was the unofficial name back when the official name of the city was Nea Roma (I believe it was the Turks who officially changed it from Nea Roma, but I could be wrong).

I cannot believe that the disdain for the Republic ofTurkey runs so deep in our church.

I don’t think the disdain of Turkey has anything to do with the Church, but with History. The Turkish people are the historic enemies of all the Europeans, I doubt there is a European country that didn’t fight the Turks (either Ottomans or Seljuks) in some form or another.

You know part of the United States used to belong to Mexico. Do you think we should return all that land too?

I tell a friend of mine from Texas that the US should all the time, but that’s mostly to annoy him.

 

[Nine_Two]

Actually most ‘Islamists’ are in favour of reopening the Halki Seminary, which was opened by the very Islamic Ottoman Empire in 1844 and closed in 1971 after a secular nationalist coup. To this day the main opposition to reopening the seminary comes from secularists like (CHP deputy chairman) Onur Oymen who said if we reopen it then Muslims will start demanding that they be allowed to open religious schools as well.

Really? That’s surprising. I know it was the secularists who shut it down in the first place, but given that the Islamists have done much worse things to the local Orthodox community than just closing down seminaries, I just can’t see it happening under their rule.

 

[malphono]

I don’t consider that to be a different story in the least the fact is the US gained some of its land through war should we give it back? As far as restoring former glory I don’t really see it that way I never said anything about whether or not it was Ottoman in my mind it does not matter what the Ottomans relationship was to it the fact remains today it is owned by Turkey and the Turkish people.

The fact is that the only reason Hagia Sophia “is owned by” to the Turkish Republic today is that it was taken by force from its rightful owners by the Ottomans. It is stolen property: by rights, it belongs to the Church.

As far as I’m concerned since I speak a little Turkish I will not refer to the city under any circumstances as Constantinople because it’s proper Turkish name is Istanbul. As far as I’m concerned it ceased to be Constantinople when the Ottoman Turks took the city.

Apparently the Ottomans thought otherwise, as the name Constantinople remained for some 700 years after they laid siege to and captured the city. It was only changed by Ataturk after the proclamation of a republic. And, as I understand it, even that name has a Greek precedent: in the days of the Byzantine Empire, Constantinople was often referred to as “the City” (ἡ Πόλις) from which comes the modern Turkish.

don’t like how minorities are treated either but that’s a whole different issue which I do not want to debate with you here. …

you yourself might not have disdain for Turkey but more often than not people who insist on calling Istanbul by its former name Constantinople also don’t like Turkey in my experience.

These two (actually three) items go hand-in-hand.

Turkey is 99% Muslim why should it be turned back into a church that is denying a huge portion of Turkish heritage.

Because (a) it is stolen property and (b) it has nothing to do with “Turkish” heritage.

 

[malphono]

(I believe it was the Turks who officially changed it from Nea Roma, but I could be wrong).

Actually I think that appellation dates from the time of Constantine.

 

[Aydan]

okay that’s it it’s ludicrous for me to even continue this conversation all this talk about stolen property is nonsense. I’m out of here. And for your information I love Atatürk he is one of my biggest role models and as I said before I will stand with Turkey against any Christian attempt to turn it back into a church. I said what I had to say I’m out of here.