Hagia Sophia, Christian Church turned into a Mosque

[malphono]

I’m asking you a legitimate question that’s the only reason I brought up Greece again I ask you what is its that you want here? Please tell why you cannot except it as a museum like it is today.

Did you not read what I posted earlier?

And yes, I give Ataturk credit for at least partially righting a grievous wrong. Better that Hagia Sophia is a museum than what it was under the Ottomans.

That Hagia Sophia is a museum is fait accompli, which simply isn’t going to change. As I said above, that’s much better than the way things were before Ataturk.

There’s nothing that I “want” nor is there anything I expect. And even if I did, nothing beyond the status-quo is going to happen anyway. If you still don’t get it, I can’t help you. :banghead:

I understand that you don’t see Hagia Sophia as Turkish heritage but I do. I ask you again what right do you have to deprive me of my heritage?

In an earlier [post=6371883]post[/post] you said you weren’t Turkish. But that doesn’t matter anyway. You’re free to consider Hagia Sophia however you wish.

 

[Aydan]

good we agree on the same thing then I also want things to remain status quo as far asHagia Sophia is concerned I think that the Greek Orthodox have every right to hold divine liturgies there I just don’t wanna see it turned back into a church that is what I’m saying. I’m not ethnically Turkish I’ve made it clear that I was talking about my own view of my Catholic heritage as it relates to the Turkish nation and the Turkish people just like you see a Byzantine connection with the city of Istanbul I see a connection between the Turkish nation and Catholicism because of Antioch Turkey. I’m not asking you to agree with me I’m just telling you guys how I see my own Christian heritage and its connection to the Turkish nation and its people. You have the right to interpret your Christian heritage why can’t I have the same right to interpret my own? I hope that one day I will have the honor to be called a Turk.

Did you not read what I posted earlier?

There’s nothing that I “want” nor is there anything I expect. And even if I did, nothing beyond the status-quo is going to happen anyway. If you still don’t get it, I can’t help you. :banghead:

In an earlier [post=6371883]post[/post] you said you weren’t Turkish. But that doesn’t matter anyway. You’re free to consider Hagia Sophia however you wish.

 

[trophybearer]

good we agree on the same thing then I also want things to remain status quo as far asHagia Sophia is concerned I think that the Greek Orthodox have every right to hold divine liturgies there I just don’t wanna see it turned back into a church that is what I’m saying. I’m not ethnically Turkish I’ve made it clear that I was talking about my own view of my Catholic heritage as it relates to the Turkish nation and the Turkish people just like you see a Byzantine connection with the city of Istanbul I see a connection between the Turkish nation and Catholicism because of Antioch Turkey. I’m not asking you to agree with me I’m just telling you guys how I see my own Christian heritage and its connection to the Turkish nation and its people. You have the right to interpret your Christian heritage why can’t I have the same right to interpret my own? I hope that one day I will have the honor to be called a Turk.

There is no connection between Turkey and the ancient city of Antioch where we were first called Christians.

 

[malphono]

There is no connection between Turkey and the ancient city of Antioch where we were first called Christians.

Well … the “connection” is that Antioch was part of the Ottoman Empire. It (and its province) was returned to Syria after WWI but was incorporated into the Turkish Republic in 1938 or thereabouts. Technically, I think it’s still a matter of dispute between Turkey and Syria.

 

[Aydan]

Well … the “connection” is that Antioch was part of the Ottoman Empire. It (and its province) was returned to Syria after WWI but was incorporated into the Turkish Republic in 1938 or thereabouts. Technically, I think it’s still a matter of dispute between Turkey and Syria.

again I’m looking at the historical significance during Paul’s time just as some people do by calling Istanbul Constantinople. I have many more connections between Turkey and my Catholic Christian faith Antioch is only a very small part of it and actually I’m not sure of its history in regards to Turkey and Syria. The thing that really strengthens the connection between my faith and my love for Turkey is the pope’s visit to Turkey and what he said about the connection between the Turkish people and Catholics in my mind he made this relationship abundantly clear by what he said about Atatürk.

 

[Aramis]

I’m asking you a legitimate question that’s the only reason I brought up Greece again I ask you what is its that you want here? Please tell why you cannot except it as a museum like it is today. I understand it is important to you to call it Constantinople for historical reasons and I understand that part of your heritage as a Christian. I’m okay with that. I’m simply telling you why I will not call it Constantinople. I understand that you don’t see Hagia Sophia as Turkish heritage but I do. I ask you again what right do you have to deprive me of my heritage?

Because calling it “turkish heritage” is intellectually dishonest. It’s Græco-Roman heritage, not Turk. In the very same way that the Alamo is Mexican Heritage and Texan Heritage, but not US Heritage. (Texas wasn’t part of the US then.)

In essence, you’ve convinced yourself of the Ottoman claim that it’s first 600 years matter not, and are ramming that Ottoman lie down our throats.

You’re advancing propaganda. It’s true that its use as a mosque was important, but you also diminsh the why: it was important because it was the abject subjugation fo the state-built cathedral of the patriarchate, and its’ subjugation to Muslim use was a blatant propaganda coup for suppressing the Christians of Constantinople/Istanbul/NeoRoma. One that, even to this day, muslim writers speak about as a triumph over Christianity.

The extremists have only a few places they wish more to see converted to mosques: St. Peter’s Basillica, St. Basils’ in Moscow, Canturbury Cathedral and Winchester Cathedrals in England, Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. These are all Iconic churches, churches which speak to the nature of Christainity, and which are the “places of power” of church government. But they still want the museum ended, and the msque restored, specifically to both stop the use by the EP, and to again symbolize the triumph over the “center of Christian worship”.

 

[malphono]

Because calling it “turkish heritage” is intellectually dishonest. It’s Græco-Roman heritage, not Turk. In the very same way that the Alamo is Mexican Heritage and Texan Heritage, but not US Heritage. (Texas wasn’t part of the US then.)

In essence, you’ve convinced yourself of the Ottoman claim that it’s first 600 years matter not, and are ramming that Ottoman lie down our throats.

You’re advancing propaganda. It’s true that its use as a mosque was important, but you also diminsh the why: it was important because it was the abject subjugation fo the state-built cathedral of the patriarchate, and its’ subjugation to Muslim use was a blatant propaganda coup for suppressing the Christians of Constantinople/Istanbul/NeoRoma. One that, even to this day, muslim writers speak about as a triumph over Christianity.

The extremists have only a few places they wish more to see converted to mosques: St. Peter’s Basillica, St. Basils’ in Moscow, Canturbury Cathedral and Winchester Cathedrals in England, Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. These are all Iconic churches, churches which speak to the nature of Christainity, and which are the “places of power” of church government. But they still want the museum ended, and the msque restored, specifically to both stop the use by the EP, and to again symbolize the triumph over the “center of Christian worship”.

Thanks for saying what I hesitated to put into words.

 

[Aydan]

again you can interpret things the way you would like however I personally believe it should remain as is and I certainly don’t believe that any more churches should be forcibly seized and turned into mosques. nor do I believe that mosques should be returned to churches and that includes this case. What’s next you want to say I’m not Catholic because of the way I feel I’m sorry I see it differently it is Turkish property.

Because calling it “turkish heritage” is intellectually dishonest. It’s Græco-Roman heritage, not Turk. In the very same way that the Alamo is Mexican Heritage and Texan Heritage, but not US Heritage. (Texas wasn’t part of the US then.)

In essence, you’ve convinced yourself of the Ottoman claim that it’s first 600 years matter not, and are ramming that Ottoman lie down our throats.

You’re advancing propaganda. It’s true that its use as a mosque was important, but you also diminsh the why: it was important because it was the abject subjugation fo the state-built cathedral of the patriarchate, and its’ subjugation to Muslim use was a blatant propaganda coup for suppressing the Christians of Constantinople/Istanbul/NeoRoma. One that, even to this day, muslim writers speak about as a triumph over Christianity.

The extremists have only a few places they wish more to see converted to mosques: St. Peter’s Basillica, St. Basils’ in Moscow, Canturbury Cathedral and Winchester Cathedrals in England, Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. These are all Iconic churches, churches which speak to the nature of Christainity, and which are the “places of power” of church government. But they still want the museum ended, and the msque restored, specifically to both stop the use by the EP, and to again symbolize the triumph over the “center of Christian worship”.

 

[Cursilista]

I never meant for this thread to turn into a Greek/ Turkist argument.

My intentions were to find out how many traditional Christian sites or Church Buildings were lost to either a Govt. or another religion.

I find it troubling that the Muslims had taken a sacred Christian Church and turned it into a mosque. Sort of a insult to our faith. They also built a mosque on top of the most holy of jewish sites in Jeruselum, the site of the destroyed jewish temple. Is this the practice of the muslim faith to take over other faiths most holy sites?

As to the Hagia Sophia, and i may be wrong, but wasnt it one of the most sacred Christian Churches of the East? Wouldnt it be as though we would have lost St. Peters Basilica to the muslims? If it was , then regardless of whether the EO in Turkey could fill the church or not, I would think that its total restoration could be accomplished and the church used for only the most holy of christian celebrations.

The issue of what the greek govt does with this church as well as the seminary reopening will play a major role as to their acceptance in the European Union. Of course, They would also have to be more accepting of other religions in their country which they have yet to show.

 

[Aramis]

I never meant for this thread to turn into a Greek/ Turkist argument.

My intentions were to find out how many traditional Christian sites or Church Buildings were lost to either a Govt. or another religion.

I find it troubling that the Muslims had taken a sacred Christian Church and turned it into a mosque. Sort of a insult to our faith. They also built a mosque on top of the most holy of jewish sites in Jeruselum, the site of the destroyed jewish temple. Is this the practice of the muslim faith to take over other faiths most holy sites?

It was an insult… HS was the primatial cathedral for about 1/4 of all Christianity at the time it was seized. Its legacy is one of the Ottomans Turks using it as a mosque specifically because it had been a center of Christian Worship.

The Muslims of what is now Turkey have suppressed both Christian and Zoroastrian worship in public, as well as any public indications of being of those faiths. (Clerical dress is still forbidden by law last I heard, except for Muslim Imams.) There has even been oppression of the Sufi, who are (nominally) Muslim.

One can not discuss the HS without risking the issue of Turk vs Greek oppression. The Turks ended the last few Græco-Roman temples in what is now Turkey. They attacked the HS during the Liturgy. There was no respect. There still is none. The so-called “seculars” in Turkey are notably pro-muslim, in the same way that the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Protestantism; they may not realize their bias, but take actions which clearly support a religious agenda.

 

[Cursilista]

One can not discuss the HS without risking the issue of Turk vs Greek oppression. The Turks ended the last few Græco-Roman temples in what is now Turkey. They attacked the HS during the Liturgy. There was no respect. There still is none. The so-called “seculars” in Turkey are notably pro-muslim, in the same way that the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Protestantism; they may not realize their bias, but take actions which clearly support a religious agenda.

This was the focus of the matter. The disrespect to our faith and other non-muslim faiths. It has happen and is still happening in Europe. We americans are just starting to see it here. Christians need to wake up before its too late. Instead of converting plp by war conquest, they are now using our own laws and immigration to take over our lands.

the hypcrosicy of the Turkist Govt claiming to be secular when it clandesicently supports Islam over any other religions will never get them into the EU. If there is not a reciprocal agreement between secular nations on religious freedom, the Western nations will be overrun by muslims within a 100 yrs. I believe that this is the plan of the islamic nations.

I do disagree that Catholics should be in the Democrat camp just because the Republicans are pro protestant, I believe the republicans are pro Christian. It was under the Democrat President and congress that a move was made in Connecticut to take away the power of the Bishops and the priest to lead and control the individual parishes. They wanted the parishes run by the laity in the form of committees, Similar to protestant denominations.
The Democrats are all about Govt control and dont want a competing entity like the Catholic church to confront them. Abortion is just one of our competing conflicts with the Democrats.

 

[malphono]

I do disagree that Catholics should be in the Democrat camp just because the Republicans are pro protestant, I believe the republicans are pro Christian. It was under the Democrat President and congress that a move was made in Connecticut to take away the power of the Bishops and the priest to lead and control the individual parishes. They wanted the parishes run by the laity in the form of committees, Similar to protestant denominations.
The Democrats are all about Govt control and dont want a competing entity like the Catholic church to confront them. Abortion is just one of our competing conflicts with the Democrats.

Please don’t derail this thread with US politics. There are fora here for that purpose.

 

[dsears]

I would love to see the Hagia Sophia returned to the Christian communities in Constantinople (yes I also use the politically uncorrect term too) just as much as I would love to see Westminster Abbey and Canterbury Cathedral returned to the Catholic Church. But sadly I do not see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Cursilista]

Please don’t derail this thread with US politics. There are fora here for that purpose

That wasnt my intent. Unfortunately, we are faced with a political/religous situation in Turkey in regards to the opening of the seminary as well as the current status of the HS as a museum . I was simply responding to the previous poster that we are facing similar policitcal / religious issues in the secular nations of the west.

 

[Maeglin]

It is a tragedy that Hagia Sophia fell under the Turks and was desecrated before becoming a museum. But as other posters have said, the reality is that Turkey is a secular government that is heavily Muslim. Any attempt to get Hagia Sophia restored would be in vain, and would provoke the ire of the Muslims. Hagia Sophia fell in 1453 - that was over 500 years ago. It’s time to let it go. We shouldn’t hold the current Turks responsible for the sins of their forefathers. Instead, they should be held accountable for the things they are doing now (Halki seminary).

 

[dsears]

It is a tragedy that Hagia Sophia fell under the Turks and was desecrated before becoming a museum. But as other posters have said, the reality is that Turkey is a secular government that is heavily Muslim. Any attempt to get Hagia Sophia restored would be in vain, and would provoke the ire of the Muslims. Hagia Sophia fell in 1453 - that was over 500 years ago. It’s time to let it go. We shouldn’t hold the current Turks responsible for the sins of their forefathers. Instead, they should be held accountable for the things they are doing now (Halki seminary).

Yes, but we can dream of it being returned. And perhaps one day it will be. Who knows? Perhaps something will happen where they will give it back. Perhaps something will happen where there will be a mass conversion and Turkey will either be Catholic or Orthodox again. I for one am not going to say it will never happen, because I am not going to doubt the power of the most blessed trinity to work in their lives.

 

[ciero]

yes that is true however I have to say there are some limited usage for occasional prayer but it is not a functioning mosque and as I said before my Turkish friend told me that on the major Greek Orthodox holidays the divine liturgy is held there. I simply do not understand why some people just can not except this.

This is pure BS!! Christians have been forbidden to pray publicly in Hagia Sophia since the 1400’s!! No limited use by Christians. When I was there a few years ago with a priest friend of mine he started to pray audibly the Lord’s Prayer. He was escorted out right quick!! It would be nice if you got your facts straight!!

RETURN HAGIA SOPHIA TO THE CHRISTIANS NOW!!

 

[ciero]

(Clerical dress is still forbidden by law last I heard, except for Muslim Imams.)

Aramis;

All clergy INCLUDING Muslim Imams are forbidden to wear clerical dress. The only ones allowed are the EP, the Armenian Patr. and the Grand Imam of Constantinople (Istanbul if we must)!

 

[gthever]

My two cents:

I would like to see Hagia Sophia as a seat of the Patriarch of Constantinople, but I understand this is very unlikely.

Although might does not make right in theory, in practice that’s the reality of things. I think Ataturk’s conversion of Hagia Sophia from a mosque into a public museum is a fine middle ground solution.

The other side of the argument that no one has seemed to bring up is the conversion of Mosques into Christian churches. Many of beautiful churches in Spain and Portugal are converted mosques. By analogy, it’s essentially the opposite side of the same coin. No one is complaining when mosques get turned into churches when Christian rulers reconquer lands from the Muslims.

 

[malphono]

The other side of the argument that no one has seemed to bring up is the conversion of Mosques into Christian churches. Many of beautiful churches in Spain and Portugal are converted mosques. By analogy, it’s essentially the opposite side of the same coin. No one is complaining when mosques get turned into churches when Christian rulers reconquer lands from the Muslims.

Keep in mind, though, that in many (if not most) of such cases, the invaders either desecrated or destroyed churches in order to establish their mosques.