Hail, Full of Grace or Hail, highly favored one...Which is the correct translation?

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Well! I don’t know what is said in Mass here in Hawaii, but this is what I just now found in the “New American Bible” (online from the USCCB) this from Luke1
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

I’m very disappointed!!! 😦
 
I can confirm that in Canada we hear “high favored” and not full of grace. I remember being quite annoyed, so it stood out in my memory.
 
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Verbum:
HI Lazer,

I don’t know if you read my post (very few do), but St.Jerome (or probably the Vetus Latina before him) had no way of translating “kecharitômenê” with one word. “Gratia plena” was fine because “gratia” in Latin meant the same as the Greek “charê”, namely favor". The word “gratia” took on other theological meanings as theology developped. “Full of grace” came about because we originally translated from the Latin. If we had translated directlly from the Greek in the beginning, it would have been different.

I frequently read that St. Jerome had better manuscripts and was closer to the original languages than St. Jerome was. This is not necessarily true. Just gathering all the books of the bible into one room was already an achievement. The only way St. Jerome could tell whether a manuscript was better than another one was by internal criteria such as fidelity to Church doctrine and text that contained less “mistakes” (subjectively judged) than the other one. Modern scholars have deveveloped techniques that allow them to do a “genealogy” of manuscripts, grouping them by families and thus are able to see how various readings developped and thus get as closed as possible to the original reading. There is no one manuscript that is 100% valid today. What is used is a “critical” text, the result of the analysis described above.

There is no reason to believe that St. Jerome was more knowledgeable in Greek or Hebrew than modern scholars. He had to learn Hebrew late in life although he probably studied Greek in school. (St. Augustine d was exposed to Greek but never learned it [to his regret] because he hated his teacher.) Additionally, recent discoveries have given modern scholars the advantage of being able to study koinê Greek of the first century from commercial and private correspondence, an advantage that St. Jerome did not have.

Verbum
St. Jerome lived in a period where the language was still spoken. That is far and above an advantage. All any scholar these days can do is try to piece together what various words meant from discoveries like you mention. All St. Jerome had to do was ask someone who already spoke the language.

Also, the idea that grace did not develop as a theological concept would seem to fly right in the face of the many New Testament uses of the word in which they convey the same theological sense that we have today. The term sanctifying grace developed theologically over the centuries, but the term grace was used by Peter Paul John and James the same way we use it today.
 
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Lazerlike42:
Are you sure that you hear “highly favored,” or do you only base that because the printed edition of the Bible says it? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just trying to make sure that there is not a similar case in the UK where the Jerusalem Bible had to be edited before inclusion in the missal. In other words, do you specifically remember hearing “highly favored,” or are you assuming that the missals are the same as the Jerusalem Bible but don’t have specific recollection of it?
I am certain. I looked it up in a missal.
 
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Lapsed:
I don’t think most consider the RSV to be a truly modern translation the bulk of it is more than 100 years old with a handful of revisions made. In Canada, we’re saddled with the NRSV for liturgical use. Same problem - “highly favoured” is used.
I pity you. Back in our Greek lectures in college the college had switched from the RSV to the NRSV for its preferred translation. I didn’t have an RSV.

So we had a situation where we had the Greek before us, the lecturer had an NRSV open and I had an RSV open.

Where there was a discrepancy between the NRSV and the RSV is was almost always the RSV that was closer to the Greek text.

In other words we found that the RSV is far superior to the NRSV.

For the next year, the college switched preferred translation again. We theorise that it only went for the NRSV in the first place as our lecturer was friends with someone high up on the translation team.
 
Peace be with you!

In the US we do hear “full of grace” and not “highly favored one”. I remember because this last advent I listened carefully to the reading and looked in the missal to see which one they were using. And sure enough, good old Fr. Juan Jose used “full of grace”!

In Christ,
Rand
 
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asteroid:
It begs the question though: If “full of grace” is the translation closest to the Greek, and if it is in traditional Catholic translations, and if it is also in one of the most common prayers said by Catholics, why don’t the modern English Catholic translations of Luke say “full of grace”?
Very good question. I wonder why a lot of things in some modern Cathlic bibles are worded the way they are. I recognize the flaws of the DRV but I usually stick to that version because it seems to be translated from a Catholic view.
 
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Reepicheep:
Do you mean that none of the modern English Catholic translations use “full of grace”?
I refer you to the RSV- Catholic Edition (also known as the Ignatius translation).
“And he came to her and said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”
…Luke 1: 28.
Unfortunatly the RSV-CE also says “…Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son…” in Isaias vii, 14

Instead of “…Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,…” in Isaias vii, 14 of the DRV or the KJV

How do I know that the RSV-CE translated it wrong? Because Mathew i, 23 of the RSV-CE says “Behold a virgin shall be with child…”. Mathew quoted the LXX when he wrote that. Since Mathew says ‘virgin’ shouldn’t we use that as a guide when we translate the verse from Isaias that hewas quoting?
 
I realize this thread has been highly favored by replies alreadys, but…
WordMadeFlesh:
Below are three versions of Luke 1:28. The first is taken from the New Catholic Edition which uses translation from the Douay version coming from the Latin Vulgate. The next two are of the King James Version and the American Standard Version. From my understanding, the first translation is not a transliteration, yet " as opposed to saying “Hail, highly favored one.”
There are those that will claim that the Catholic Church uses the Latin vulgate translation of the original Greek in order to more fully support the Church’s teaching on our Blessed Mother.
How does a Catholic share about the difference in translations, knowing that the newer translations are closer to a transliteration of the Greek, than the Douay which is a translation of the Latin? In other words, which translation is closest to the ‘correct’ translation?

28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Douay Rheims

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”c] KJV
28 And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee. American Standard Version
You realize the OP is “full of gobbledey-gook”, right? :ehh:

:twocents:
tee
 
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tee_eff_em:
I realize this thread has been highly favored by replies alreadys, but…

You realize the OP is “full of gobbledey-gook”, right? :ehh:

:twocents:
tee
Yup, but, by applying the translation principle known as “dynamic equivelance” we were able to generate an adequate paraphrase revealing the underlying intent which was voiced in a highly idiomatic text. 😛
 
Hi Lazer,

All St. Jerome had to do was ask someone who already spoke the language.

Don’t forget that St. Jerome lived about 300 years after St.John. How much help would you be today to a Spaniard translating Shakespeare?

Verbum
 
i posted this in another thread a while back:

the greek word used in the passage - is kecaritomene, or kecharitomene.

the root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace” (used in the NT only of the root noun charis, which means “grace”, and then only of divine charis).

the prefix ke ke] and the suffix mene mene] together make the word used by gabriel a perfect passive participle.

what ***that ***means is:
  1. kecharitomene is used as a name, in the sense that using a common word as a name indicates superlative possession by the one so named of the property used as the name - like calling mary “miss grace” to indicate her special possession of grace in the way that we would call someone like wayne gretzky “mr. hockey”; and
  2. it indicates an action that has been done to mary, and which has been completed or perfected with a permanent result.
it is a greek verb only found one other time in the new testament - at Ephesians 1:6, and there it uses a different stem and is in the aorist active indicative echaritosen], which denotes merely ***momentary ***action rather than enduring action.

here’s a couple of quotes for you :

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

“Luke 1:28…kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellenistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace” (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 ) - Protestant Greek scholar, John Nolland
 
Judith 13.18
Then said Ozias unto her, O daughter, blessed art thou of the most high God above all the women upon the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, which hath created the heavens and the earth, which hath directed thee to the cutting off of the head of the chief of our enemies.

You may want to look for A Translator’s Handbook on luke, published by the American Bible Society it goes in quite alot of depth concerning the translation of this verse.

Translators try to understand a word or phrase in the immediate context where it is used. Average readers of the bible use word study fallacies like how is the word used elsewhere – look for a book by D.A. Carson called Exegetical Fallacies.
 
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Verbum:
Hi Lazer,

All St. Jerome had to do was ask someone who already spoke the language.

Don’t forget that St. Jerome lived about 300 years after St.John. How much help would you be today to a Spaniard translating Shakespeare?

Verbum
Your question seems to be a bit out of phase with the times. Ancient Greek has certain epochs involvd with the language. For Instance Homeric Greek Starts at roughly 800 BC to around 330 BC. Then “Hellenistic Greek” takes over from about 330 BC to Around 330 AD. But at 330 AD it doesn’t just expire on Monday morning.

The Septuagint was written in “Hellenistic Greek”. The early church fathers also used Hellenistic Greek. St. Jerome was Studied at Trier and Antioch. Antioch was a center of "Hellenistic Greek language. So there were plenty of people around, speaking and teaching “Hellenistic Greek”. The language had not expired yet. Given that St. Jerome was born during the epoch of “Hellenistic Greek”, it is favorable to believe that he spoke it fluently.

Chipper
 
john doran:
i posted this in another thread a while back:

the greek word used in the passage - is kecaritomene, or kecharitomene.

the root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace” (used in the NT only of the root noun charis, which means “grace”, and then only of divine charis).

the prefix ke ke] and the suffix mene mene] together make the word used by gabriel a perfect passive participle.

what ***that ***means is:
  1. kecharitomene is used as a name, in the sense that using a common word as a name indicates superlative possession by the one so named of the property used as the name - like calling mary “miss grace” to indicate her special possession of grace in the way that we would call someone like wayne gretzky “mr. hockey”; and
  2. it indicates an action that has been done to mary, and which has been completed or perfected with a permanent result.
it is a greek verb only found one other time in the new testament - at Ephesians 1:6, and there it uses a different stem and is in the aorist active indicative echaritosen], which denotes merely ***momentary ***action rather than enduring action.

here’s a couple of quotes for you :

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

“Luke 1:28…kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellenistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace” (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 ) - Protestant Greek scholar, John Nolland
All of this is correct, John. We need to remember that one has to read scripture in its totality, in the light of sacred tradition, and in the analogy of the faith. In other words, we cannot translate kecharitomene in a way that would not fit other Marian examples, which is what “highly favoured” does. For instance:

Jer 31:22… “How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? For the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: a woman shall compass a man.” (In case you were wondering, my bible is 56 years old.)

The woman who compasses the man is a new thing created upon the earth. This is confirmed in Luke’s Gospel when he is inspired by the Holy Spirit to use the term “Kecharitomene” only once and specifically for Mary.

In the Strong’s Concordance “charitoo” means “to gift, to grace, to favor.” Like dictionaries, the first best definition is followed by second best, then by third. So while grace, gift, and favor, are all acceptable, grace is best followed by gift which is followed by favor.

“Ke” denotes a perfection or a fullness that cannot be exceeded. “Mene” renders the word a passive participle meaning the action of gracing, gifting or favoring, was the result of another agency. (In this case God. Mary was “passive” i.e. she received but did not enjoy this grace, gift, or favor, of her own innate ability or will.)

So, the best way to render the experssion would be… “Hail, you who are perfectly (or fully) graced, gifted, and favored by God.” Of course, no one would translate the single word Kecharitomene with so many words in English. The point is, however, that “highly favoured,” fails thrice over.

First… Highly does not capture the “ke” prefix properly. Many people who post here may be “highly” intelligent, but no one here is perfectly intelligent. (Unless of course God were to make it happen, i.e. “mene.”)

Second… Favoured is a third best choice as a translation of charitoo.

Third… Highly favoured in and of itself does not comply with the totality of scripture. There were many “highly favoured” Jewish girls in scripture before Mary. But the HolySpirit did not inspire a biblical author to render for them a unique word that is applied also as a personal name. And since other “highly favored” females in scripture are not a “new thing created” the usage of “highly favored” falls short of fulfilling the uniqueness of the Jeremiah prophecy concerning this woman.

Three strike… yer’ out.

Thal59
 
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