Hail Holy Queen Prayer- Help Please

[Odilon]

We are not praying TO Mary, we are asking her and the other saints to pray for us is what is happening, just as we ask each other to pray for us. We are asking her and the saints to “intercede” for us, just as you are “interceding” for me when pray for me.

It is clear by your responses that you are a non-orthodox Christian, a Sola Scriptura adherent, (an idea that never raised it’s head for 1500 years) and thus it is how you see and go about your brand of Christianity.

Yes, false teachers do abound and maybe you have been influenced by them. In the end all you have is a different interpretation of the Scriptures, and that’s it in a nutshell, nothing more than that.

 

[savedbyfaith1]

All I can say is: Be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11). Human contentions (such as Mary being an ark) may sound fine but because they sound fine they cause you to abandon the teachings of Jesus. “Abandoning the command of God, you hold on to human tradition” (Mark 7:8). God lovingly gave you the truth so that you could know the truth. If you reject it in favor of the teachings of men…

Those who come to know Jesus no longer listen to the voice of strangers (John 10). Learn how to come to know Jesus. God loves you and did all that was necessary to save you.

 

[Odilon]

Now, now, you can’t point out Scripture that tends to go against what our friend believes. That’s not fair!

 

[goout]

I take it as "…Mother of Mercy (which is Jesus), our life our sweetness and our hope (that is all Jesus). Mary is the Mother of Jesus…
But yeah it gives me pause when I think about it.
There are many manifestations of piety, and many directions it can take. I read recently that we should not fixate on knowing Jesus, because Jesus himself always points to his father.
And that is true also.
It’s good to appreciate the various forms and expressions of piety.

 

[Odilon]

Human tradition? That’s what you folks got, a new scriptural teaching that only came about from men. Which one is yours, Martin Luther? John Calvin? Zwingli? John Smythe? Who was the founder of your Christian sect?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

How does giving proper veneration to the Ark of the Covenant draw me from God? Did not David leap for joy upon seeing the Ark? Did not John leap in his mother’s womb when he heard Mary’s greeting?

 

[vsedriver]

Beloved, praying for someone and praying to someone are completely different. Scripture says to pray FOR one another, not TO one another. Mary is not God.

Do you know what the 4 forms of prayer are? Yes, we are to pray for one another. That means we can ask others to pray for us. We can ask ANYONE to pray for us, even Mary and the saints. All prayers to Mary and the saints are petitions for intercession, no different from me asking you to pray for me. My request to you is a form of prayer. So yes, I can ‘pray’ to you to intercede for me. The concept of prayer in the Catholic Church is deeper and older than your modern understanding.

Of course Mary is not God. No Catholic believes Mary is divine.

but she was a sinner

No, Mary was born without original sin and remained sinless her whole life.

Mary is not everywhere and cannot hear our prayers.

In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

To seek Mary for those things is to be idolatrous because it is treating her as though she is God and those good things come from her.

That maybe in your mind but it isn’t in the mind of a Catholic. If you truly believe this then the next time someone asks you to pray for them tell them to go to God directly because to ask you to be the middle man between them and God is to make you out to be an idol and like God.

 

[Odilon]

If that’s the way it is meant than I would have no problem with the prayer. But when first looking at it, it seems it is Mother Mary who is being talked about.

 

[goout]

If that’s the way it is meant than I would have no problem with the prayer. But when first looking at it, it seems it is Mother Mary who is being talked about.

I hear you.

 

[vsedriver]

Seeking from Mary what can only come from God is idolatry.

yes we agree!

but Catholics don’t do this. This is what YOU think Catholics are doing. The fault isn’t with Catholicism it is with your lack of understanding of Catholic teaching.

Mary is doing nothing more than interceding on our behalf. Something you do as well whenever you agree to pray for someone who asks you to.

To say that Mary is sinless is to say she has as much glory (goodness) as God.

that is not true. Sinlessness is not a sign of divinity. If it was then the Angels in heaven would be divine and so would Adam and Eve before the fall.

Check out everything you hear from your teachers with the Word of God! False teachers abound! Jesus warned us about them.

did that, it’s why I am Catholic now.

 

[mr.p]

Mark 7:8

Now tell me where the bible teaches it is the only source of authority (sola scriptura)

[Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
John 20:21‭-‬23 NABRE

Here the sacrament of Confession is instituted

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 NABRE

Here Tradition is instituted

I could go on. Which Church has Confession and Holy Tradition?

 

[vsedriver]

10-11). Human contentions (such as Mary being an ark) may sound fine but because they sound fine they cause you to abandon the teachings of Jesus.

how is this abandoning scripture? Did not the Ark of the OT hold the bread of life? the staff of priesthood, and the Word of God?

did not Mary carry Jesus who is the bread of life, the only High Priest, and the word of God made flesh?

Mary is the Ark of the NT and as such has the same qualities in purity.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

All I can say is: Be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11). Human contentions (such as Mary being an ark) may sound fine but because they sound fine they cause you to abandon the teachings of Jesus. “Abandoning the command of God, you hold on to human tradition” (Mark 7:8). God lovingly gave you the truth so that you could know the truth. If you reject it in favor of the teachings of men…

Those who come to know Jesus no longer listen to the voice of strangers (John 10). Learn how to come to know Jesus. God loves you and did all that was necessary to save you.

I note that this is an example of a non-Catholic giving non-Catholic, and incorrect in view of Church teaching, statements about Mary.

Mary, the mother of God and our own mother, is no “stranger” and we most definitely should listen to our Mother as Jesus listened to her at Cana and also when she found him in the temple.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Beloved, praying for someone and praying to someone are completely different.

Definition of PRAY

entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea; to get or bring by praying; to make a request in a humble manner… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Because modern American English has lost the word “pray” as in “Pray tell what time you will visit?” it can be difficult to re-learn this good word.

 

[guanophore]

Have you read the Scriptures to see if we should be praying to Mary?

You are basing your question on a false premise. The Catholic faith comes from Jesus, through the Apostles, and was whole and entire before any of the New Testament was written. The Church was asking for the intercession of the saints for about 350 years before the canon of Scripture was closed.

Catholics do not need to find certain activities in Scripture to know what we “should be” doing, since we receive this through sacred Tradition.

You might start with Jeremiah 44 and then see if you can find anywhere in Scripture where we are to pray to anyone but God.

This statement is most likely based on a deficient understanding of prayer. We ask people in our lives, whose prayers we believe are powerful, to pray for us about many things. Catholics accept the teaching of Jesus that those who are in Him will never die, and that death cannot separate us from His love, or the love of those who are with Him.

When you read Hebrews 11 you find a great collection of saints, which are then described as a “great cloud of witnesses”. How can they be witnesses if they do not know what is happening?

 

[guanophore]

multiple passages throughout the books of the law speak against mediums, and Isaiah speaks against praying to the dead (Isaiah 8:19).

19 Now if people say to you, “Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, 20 for teaching and for instruction?” Isaiah 8:19

There are a couple things wrong with your conclusion. One is that the saints in heaven are not “dead”. As Jesus says, they are alive forevermore.

" Jesus said to them, “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.” Mark 12

1 John 2:17 And the world and its desire are passing away, but those who do the will of God live forever.

John 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

"…they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” Revelation 6:10

These martyrs that cry out to God for justice upon those who murdered them are not ghosts, familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; “gods” or dead! They are living saints in heaven, and they are aware of what is happening here on earth.

Moses and Elijah, who met with Jesus at the Transfiguration and had a little chat with Him about his upcoming “departure” were also aware of what was happening, and about to happen. Jesus gives us an example in showing His disciples that the communion of saints is continuous - not separated by death.

 

[guanophore]

All I can say is: Be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11).

Good advice. Actually, Catholics are Bereans more so than our Sola Scriptura siblings. This is because the way we received the faith is closer to what is described of the Bereans.

“That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so.” Acts 17

Catholics eagerly welcome the Apostolic message from the persons to whom it was entrusted by the Apostles. The Children of the Reformation were separated from this part of the message during the Reformation, and are only left with the Sacred Writings. These two strands of divine revelation were never meant to be separated from one another. Separating them creates division, which is what we observe in Protestantism to day.

Human contentions (such as Mary being an ark) may sound fine but because they sound fine they cause you to abandon the teachings of Jesus.

It may seem like a human contention for you because you are not familiar with what has been revealed in the Scriptures about this. In any case, the Ark carried the presence of God, just as Mary carried the presence of Jesus. She does not cause anyone to abandon the teachings of Jesus. On the contrary, she tells us to “do whatever He tells you”!

If you reject it in favor of the teachings of men…

You don’t seem to realize that your faith is rooted in the teachings of men - men who created the doctrines you use 1500 years after Jesus founded His One Church.

 

[guanophore]

Once again: Praying FOR someone is different that praying TO someone.

I think you don’t understand the manner in which we use the word “pray” in this context. It is the same as is sometimes still used in court documents. It means asking.

Seeking from Mary what can only come from God is idolatry.

It is very Catholic of you to say this! At least we are in agreement on that point.

Jesus made a way for us (the curtain to the Holy of Holies ripped in two when Jesus died) to have a relationship with God. He mediated the New Covenant, not Mary.

We believe that Mary participated in His plan of salvation in a unique way that no one else ever has, or will. But yes, only Jesus is our divine mediator. Only He could take our sins upon Himself on the cross. Mary is not separated from His work in this, as He also died for her, and chose her to be the pure vessel through which He would enter the world.

Those who have that relationship with God know that God is the only one that can provide power over sin, power to know his love more, forgiveness, and all other good things.

I agree. You seem to think that other members of the Body of Christ are somehow separated from His gifts - such that we cannot share with each other. Mary absolutely helps us to know His love more. No human ever spent more time on earth with Jesus than His mother. She nursed Him, changed His diapers, held Him when he skinned his knee. She brought Him up in the faith, and gave Him to the world. It is odd that you think she cannot show us how to love Him more? Maybe you never knew anyone really close to the Lord that showed you how to love Him more?

I pray TO GOD

Perhaps you are thinking that asking other believers for their prayers somehow excludes praying to God?

Mary is not God. She sinned like everyone else. That is why she referred to God as her Savior (Luke 1:47).

This might better be addressed in another thread.

Scripture says "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 1:23)

You have removed this from context, trying to apply it to Mary.

 

[guanophore]

To say that Mary is sinless is to say she has as much glory (goodness) as God.

This is just false. Adam and Eve were created without original sin, and there has never been any claim that they have as much glory as God.

Read Romans 1 to find out what can happen when people worship created things rather than the Creator.

Perhaps you have misunderstood. Asking others to pray for us is not worshipping them.

False teachers abound! Jesus warned us about them.

Indeed, you appear to be providing a great example right now!

Most importantly, learn the true way of salvation. Read John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-5, Galatians (in its entirely), Hebrews 10, Romans (at least up until chapter 6). Believe God; not man.

You may not remember this, but Jesus entrusted the gospel of salvation to men, and told them that He would keep them in the Truth.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I note that the original OP said they were not against praying for Mary’s intercession.

This entire derailment by someone wishing to argue against Mary’s intercession is off topic.

In the future, savedbyfaith1, it would be better to start your own thread rather than derail the threads of others.