Hail, Holy Queen

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DD, you just missed it entirely. The apostles ordained people to do certain things. Your pastors are not ordained by the apostolic succession. Apostolic succession doesn’t mean that the successor becomes an Apostle of Christ, it means they take over that position as “overseer”. And only an “overseer”, or presbyter can ordain another to be a presbyter, or deacon for that matter, through the working of the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit passing can clearly be seen in history, and with Timothy, as well as the seven mentioned here earlier.

And since it IS through the Holy Spirit that ordination is made possible, which the Catholic Church upholds today, the correct teachings, and the interpretations of scripture, are protected from false doctrine, the likes of which the Reformation has brought about. the Holy Spirit is FAR more powerful than you give it credit for, and the Holy Spirit was promised to keep that deposit of faith safe, not letting it be taken astray. The only line through history that has been there to KEEP it safe through the Holy Spirit is the Catholic Church.

So what you say here has no pertinence to the truth, since you attempt to interpret the scripture for yourself without the institution in which Christ founded to be the bulwark and pillar of that deposit of faith, in which the gates of Hades could not harm. You are an active participant in this, whether you realize it or not.
 
[continued from above]

YOU ARE UTTERLY WRONG! The Catholic Church is the apostolic teaching - we even call ourselves The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in our Creed. DOES ANY OTHER “CHURCH” CALL ITSELF APOSTOLIC WITH THE CREDIBILITY of 2000 years of continuous presence and teaching? NO. Protestants are not even so brash to call themselves apostolic - they would be laughed off the planet.

You are trying to teach a new gospel and utter nonsence as if you imagine yourself to be Jesus or an apostle. At this points its past invincible ignorance and squarely into the realm of naked HUBRIS guy. You no longer have an excuse and your continued spreading of these heresies and errors will not go well for you at your judgement.

The problem is YOU DON"T KNOW CHRIST except by what you imagine to know from reading a book. You are one of those kinds of people who will read some author’s book and then try to tell them what they meant. You really don’t have even a clue what you are talking about. The Catholic Church apostolic succession comes to us from men who all personally knew Christ or an apostle. You lack any experiential or familial knowledge. The Apostles were a friend of ours (The Catholic Church). We knew the apostles, You never knew anyone who knew an apostle You are no apostle - so stop pretending like you have any idea what an apostle actually taught.

Peter was talking to members of The Catholic Church.

The Apostle Peter’s bones are interned under the altar at St. Peter’s in Rome. St. Peter was our first pope. The Catholic Church is his family. Peter passed on his instructions and his blessings to his replacement popes and bishops and Christ’s Church which he was given original custody over.

You are no bishop and you are no Catholic and you have no true handed down faith. What you teach is non-apostolic and utter lies and human precepts.

James
Well said…Took the words right out of my mouth
 
The fullness of truth is revealed in scripture. No one puts the bible above Christ no one worships the bible. The Bible is inspired by God and has the fullness of reveled truth in it. Jesus is of course that truth the bible points to Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17]
that the man of God may be complete
, equipped for every good work.

Please reference 2 Timothy 3:16-17 above
Where does the bible say “it contains the fullness of Truth as revealed by God”? I challenge you to find that verse. Also, 2Timothy is talking about the OT, or did you not know that? They had no clue that what Paul was writing would eventually, 300 years later be called the NT.
 
[continued from above]
YOU ARE UTTERLY WRONG! The Catholic Church is the apostolic teaching - we even call ourselves The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in our Creed. DOES ANY OTHER “CHURCH” CALL ITSELF APOSTOLIC WITH THE CREDIBILITY of 2000 years of continuous presence and teaching? NO. Protestants are not even so brash to call themselves apostolic - they would be laughed off the planet.
 
Where does the bible say “it contains the fullness of Truth as revealed by God”? I challenge you to find that verse. Also, 2Timothy is talking about the OT, or did you not know that? They had no clue that what Paul was writing would eventually, 300 years later be called the NT.
John 14:1-7
[1] “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[3] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
[4] And you know the way where I am going.”
[5] Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?”
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
[7] If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

The truth is that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Noone comes to the Father but by Him.
 
CentralFLJames;4865191 said:
[continued from above]

The Church Universal is the pillar and foundation of truth. That truth is the gospel of Jesus Christ as written by the hand of the Aposltes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.

We also uphold the Apostles and the Nicene creeds and are indeed just as Catholic as you. Our denomination name is Presbyterian yours is Roman Catholic however, we are both part of the Catholic Church, the Universal Christian Church and are equal brothers in Christ.

I am a follower of Christ and hear his teachings from his Apostles that by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote the New Testament. I know Him and pray to Him everyday. He is God incarnate the second person of the Holy Trinity.

Romans 10:1-13
[1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
[2] I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
[3] For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
[5] Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it.
[6] But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down)
[7] or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
[8] But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[11] The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
[12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
[13] For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

I’m not teaching you anything but simply pointing out what scripture says.

My personal conviction is that prayer to anyone other than God is idolatry. I believe that is clearly indicated in scripture. Christ taught us to pray to God. God is the Trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Prayers should be to Him.
Most of your Protestant brothers don’t believe the same way you do. There is only one truth, one faith, one Church. A denomination is a separation. Something that makes it more than one. You do not have unity. Protestants can NEVER have unity. Why? Because they cannot agree.

I think you have intentionally passed over some of the things said here because you can’t explain them. Like Stephen. He was ordained to the ministry. Just as every other presbyter and deacon and priest. Just as Timothy was. Do you deny that there is a passing of authority from the apostles on down to their disciples?
 
John 14:1-7
[1] “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[3] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
[4] And you know the way where I am going.”
[5] Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?”
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
[7] If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

The truth is that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Noone comes to the Father but by Him.
This still doesn’t answer the question! The bible doesn’t say that the bible contains the fullness of the truth. So why do you continue to lead others astray with this belief?
 
DD WOULD YOU PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FEATURE?

Close out the quotes with a begin quote and an end quote. It’s really simple.

[noparse]
person quoting:
[/noparse]

Your posting incompetence is making it look like people are responding to me when they reply to your nonsense.

Or are you doing this on purpose to add further confusion here?

James
 
Originally Posted by DD2007 View Post
… It is better to just follow it as opposed to leaning on the false crutch of the traditions of men.
Romans 1:16-18
There you go with that a-C polemic again. :rolleyes:

The fact is that because SS is not taught in the Bible, you have based your entire religion upon the errant modern teachings of men because their interpretation does not hold up to the simple reading of the New Testament it claims to be based upon.

Furthermore, I am of the opinion that this passage that you have cited better applies to you and those who taught you these errors. It is one reason that Galatians 1:8 actually applies to those who so often seek to hang it on us Catholics.
If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament and it would be very likely that most people of the time would have been aware of it. Keeping that in mind you can see a reference in Luke as to Jesus and His reply.
Luke 11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Semiramis, who was both Nimrod’s wife and mother, was worshiped as the "mother of god"and a “fertility goddess” because she had to be extremely fertile to give birth to all the pagan incarnate gods that represented Nimrod. She was worshiped throughout the world by each the titles associated with Nimrod’s worship, in addition to many titles unique to herself (Table 2, page 15). For instance, the respective Greek and Roman names applied to the worship of Semiramis include: Aphrodite and Venus, the goddess of love; Artemis and Diana, the goddess of hunting and childbirth85; Athena and Minerva, the goddess of crafts, war and wisdom86; Demeter and Ceres, the goddess of growing things87; Gaea and Terra, symbol of the fertile earth88; Hera and Juno, the protector of marriage and women, who was the sister and wife of Zeus in Greek mythology, and the wife of Jupiter in Roman mythology89; Hestia and Vesta, the goddess of the hearth90; plus Rhea or Ops, who was wife and sister of the Greek horned-god Kronos.91

The Egyptian mother and child were worshiped as Isis with the infant Osiris or Horus seated on his mother’s lap. In India, the mother and child were called Devaki and Krishna, and also Isi and Iswara as they are worshiped to this day. In Asia, they were known as Cybele and Deoius; in pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy; in Greece, as Ceres, the great mother with babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms.

The image of mother with child in her arms was so firmly entrenched in the pagan mind that by the time Christianity appeared on the scene in 30 A.D., The virgin Mary with her god-incarnate son Jesus. Thus, the pagan mother and child mirrors, Christianity as the Roman Catholic worship of Mary with the infant Jesus. In fact, in Tibet, China, and Japan, Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the counterpart of the madonna and child as devoutly worshiped as they were in Rome. Shing Moo, the holy mother in China was portrayed with a child in her arms and a glory around her, exactly as if she had been fashioned by Roman Catholic artisans.

Judges 98

Later, during the time of the prophet Jeremiah, the Jews worshiped the queen of heaven so devoutly that they could not be convinced to give up this paganism even after Jerusalem had been burnt and the land desolated due to this very pagan worship:

Then all the men who knew that their wives had offered incense to other gods, and all the women who stood by, a great assembly, all the people who dwelt in Pathros in the land of Egypt, answered Jeremiah: “As for the word which you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you. But we will do everything that we have vowed, burn incense to the queen of heaven [Semiramis] and pour out libations to her, as we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no evil. But since we left off burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out libations to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” And the women said, "When we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out libations to her, was it without our husbands’ approval that we made cakes for her bearing her image and poured out libations to her?
  • Prophet Jeremiah 99
This post is in reference to provable history in the reading of ancient script from archaeologist sites.
 
DD, you also seem to not understand that “prayer” has more than one meaning. The words for prayer through out the NT are all widely differing, having differing meanings.

Lets give an analogy:

You get stuck on a cliff. You know that someone, say your brother, is supposed to come in a few minutes to do some climbing with you. You are there, hanging on for dear life, and you say “Brother, I hope you can get here soon to save me… Where are you? Please hurry…” Does this constitute as a worshipful prayer to you? No, it is a communication of wishes to your brother, even if he can’t hear you. But it gives you hope doesn’t it? Calling on your brother to help you with a problem?

Everyone has said similar things in their life where they say something to this effect. So what you are saying, DD, is that every single person on the face of this planet has been guilty of idolatry because we communicated a wish through mental means, whether it got there or not. By faith can we assume that these brethren are in heaven, rooting for us, until our race is won.
 
This still doesn’t answer the question! The bible doesn’t say that the bible contains the fullness of the truth. So why do you continue to lead others astray with this belief?
That is the fullness of truth. It is written right there in the bible. So the bible does indeed within it’s pages contain the words that show Christ as the fullness of truth.

He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the Father but by me.” That is very plain.
 
The fullness of truth is revealed in scripture. No one puts the bible above Christ no one worships the bible. The Bible is inspired by God and has the fullness of reveled truth in it. Jesus is of course that truth the bible points to Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17]
that the man of God may be complete
, equipped for every good work.

Please reference 2 Timothy 3:16-17 above
The fullness of Truth IS the FAITH of The Catholic Church.
You put your own private interpretation of the bible ABOVE Christ’s Church - The Universal Church - which means The Catholic Church (Catholic means “universal”). Therefore you worship YOUR own opinion above Christ’s commandments since Christ COMMANDED YOU to follow His appointed leaders. But you are disobedient and so you are committing self-idolatry - the worst form of idolatry since you put yourself at the same level as Christ and His Bride - The Church.

The Bible is Catholic - it is integral with The Church and is an integral part of or liturgy and Catechism (another God given revelation that you don’t have).

You confirmed for me that you are ignorant of scripture when you blindly quote Timothy above. This is referring to OLD TESTAMENT. There was NO NT scripture yet.

Get it yet? If not then Timothy must be taken as a mandate to only use OT and The Catholic Church was not authorized to publish the NT. Pick your poision guy - either way you are wrong.

James
 
That is the fullness of truth. It is written right there in the bible. So the bible does indeed within it’s pages contain the words that show Christ as the fullness of truth.

He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the Father but by me.” That is very plain.
Christ being the Truth is not the argument! The bible being the fullness of the Truth is what the argument is about.
 
DD WOULD YOU PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FEATURE?

Close out the quotes with a begin quote and an end quote. It’s really simple.

[noparse]

[/noparse]

Your posting incompetence is making it look like people are responding to me when they reply to your nonsense.

Or are you doing this on purpose to add further confusion here?

James
I tried this on the one that messed up on mine above… Still didn’t work. It has the end quote piece too. I think it may have to do with the numbers you have such as [1] and/or 2 ]. As an IT professional, who also owns a web design business, I think it is a PHP/BBcode parsing issue that needs to be fixed elsewhere, not by us. It isn’t our fault for happening.
 
DD WOULD YOU PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FEATURE?

Close out the quotes with a begin quote and an end quote. It’s really simple.

[noparse]

[/noparse]

Your posting incompetence is making it look like people are responding to me when they reply to your nonsense.

Or are you doing this on purpose to add further confusion here?

James
I don’t understand the quote feature very much and I’m not very good with computers. I just learned how to wrap quote tags and multiquote the other day.

So when I quote you I then wrap tags around the things you said that I want to comment on individually. I then have to delete the last quote thing because if I don’t it has the entire message looking like it’s a quote from you.

How do I divide a quote up with multple quote tags in the correct manner?
 
Christ being the Truth is not the argument! The bible being the fullness of the Truth is what the argument is about.
No the Bibloe containing the fullness of truth within is the argument.

The truth is that the bible does contain that truth within because that’s where the gospel of Christ is and Christ is the fullness of Truth. So when you hear the words of Christ you are being exposed to absolute truth.

Those words are in the bible.
 
DD2007;4865280:
Most of your Protestant brothers don’t believe the same way you do. There is only one truth, one faith, one Church. A denomination is a separation. Something that makes it more than one. You do not have unity. Protestants can NEVER have unity. Why? Because they cannot agree.

I think you have intentionally passed over some of the things said here because you can’t explain them. Like Stephen. He was ordained to the ministry. Just as every other presbyter and deacon and priest. Just as Timothy was. Do you deny that there is a passing of authority from the apostles on down to their disciples?
Actually I didn’t pass that over at all and instead gave one person a rather lengthy explaination about ordination.
 
DD, you also seem to not understand that “prayer” has more than one meaning. The words for prayer through out the NT are all widely differing, having differing meanings.

Lets give an analogy:

You get stuck on a cliff. You know that someone, say your brother, is supposed to come in a few minutes to do some climbing with you. You are there, hanging on for dear life, and you say “Brother, I hope you can get here soon to save me… Where are you? Please hurry…” Does this constitute as a worshipful prayer to you? No, it is a communication of wishes to your brother, even if he can’t hear you. But it gives you hope doesn’t it? Calling on your brother to help you with a problem?

Everyone has said similar things in their life where they say something to this effect. So what you are saying, DD, is that every single person on the face of this planet has been guilty of idolatry because we communicated a wish through mental means, whether it got there or not. By faith can we assume that these brethren are in heaven, rooting for us, until our race is won.
That’s actually not at all the same thing. First you are expressing your wishes in a way that you would if you were talking to him. You are not praying to Him hoping that he will bring you the favor of God if you please him and ask him too.

In prayer a person actually through faithful meditation casts faith upon the object of prayer.
 
No the Bibloe containing the fullness of truth within is the argument.

The truth is that the bible does contain that truth within because that’s where the gospel of Christ is and Christ is the fullness of Truth. So when you hear the words of Christ you are being exposed to absolute truth.

Those words are in the bible.
So you’re saying because the bible says that the OT scripture is inspired, that the entire book is inspired? By your theology, you should accept the Koran to be inspired as well. It claims to be inspired as well. You believe the bible to be inspired because you were told this by someone, who was told that by someone else, etc. Follow that all the way back and guess what? It was the Catholic Church that gave the bible to the world. The bible didn’t just fall down from heaven in that leather cover and gold trim edges.
 
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