Hail, Holy Queen

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The fullness of Truth IS the FAITH of The Catholic Church.
You put your own private interpretation of the bible ABOVE Christ’s Church - The Universal Church - which means The Catholic Church (Catholic means “universal”). Therefore you worship YOUR own opinion above Christ’s commandments since Christ COMMANDED YOU to follow His appointed leaders. But you are disobedient and so you are committing self-idolatry - the worst form of idolatry since you put yourself at the same level as Christ and His Bride - The Church.

The Bible is Catholic - it is integral with The Church and is an integral part of or liturgy and Catechism (another God given revelation that you don’t have).

You confirmed for me that you are ignorant of scripture when you blindly quote Timothy above. This is referring to OLD TESTAMENT. There was NO NT scripture yet.

Get it yet? If not then Timothy must be taken as a mandate to only use OT and The Catholic Church was not authorized to publish the NT. Pick your poision guy - either way you are wrong.

James
You guys are caught up for some reason thinking that just because parts of the New Testament were being written or may not have been written yet that this very clear verse that speaks of all scripture period is just talking about the Old Testament and somehow rules out the inspiration of the New.

As a matter of fact Peter calls the letters of Paul scripture in His Epistle! He was actually warning people not to twist them no less, this is direct scriptural evidence that not only were people in New Testament times looking to scripture for truth but that the Apostles had to warn them to not twist the meanings of the scriptures that are further p(name removed by moderator)ointed as being written by Paul!

The Church has been looking to the scriptures written by the Apostles for truth as inspired scripture since the begining.

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother **Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, **[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, **as they do the other scriptures. **
 
The Church Universal is the pillar and foundation of truth. That truth is the gospel of Jesus Christ as written by the hand of the Aposltes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.
Yes the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church Universal and the word universal means “Catholic” as in The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - which is The Catholic Church with the apostolic successive bishop of Rome seated in the Vatican and how is also called “the pope”.

The rest of your comments are technically incorrect. Most of the apostles were fishermen and could not read and write and did not personally pen any of copies of the manuscripts by which the bible was constructed by the Catholic Church. For that matter - we believe even the lost originals were written by various scribes under the tutelage of disciples of the apostles if not the apostles themselves. And you know that the NT is inspired because the Catholic Pope Damascus told you that when he developed the first complete NT bible cannon in the Council of Rome in 382AD. Note that there were no protestants around at that time but still some other heretics threatening to cause more false teachings.
I am a follower of Christ and hear his teachings from his Apostles that by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote the New Testament. I know Him and pray to Him everyday. He is God incarnate the second person of the Holy Trinity.
No, you are a follower of the reformers and follow the neo-Christian teachings of those men. This means you have a partial and incomplete faith understanding and lack the fullness of truth that only The Catholic Church has. It is impossible to know Christ without also knowing His Bride - The Catholic Church. Since you do not know Christ’s Church then you do not know Jesus. What you know is the reformed Jesus of your protestant teachers. No apostle would recognize this Jesus as Christ crucified - as badly as His persecutors disfigured Christ no one has disfigured Christ more than the reformers have.
I’m not teaching you anything but simply pointing out what scripture says.

My personal conviction is that prayer to anyone other than God is idolatry. I believe that is clearly indicated in scripture. Christ taught us to pray to God. God is the Trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Prayers should be to Him.
But you are selectively pointing and assuming improperly that context free scripture is self teaching. Scripture does not teach - people teach - and special kinds of people - apostolic succession preachers of The Catholic Church.

Prayers should be to Him?
Did the magi offer prayers or gifts to God?
Whose trust and care did the magi place them with? Was it the infant Jesus or His mother?

Please don’t teach scripture because you are not competent nor are you authorized to. And don’t say “you just point to scripture and don’t teach” because you just tried to tell us how to pray.

James
 
That’s actually not at all the same thing. First you are expressing your wishes in a way that you would if you were talking to him. You are not praying to Him hoping that he will bring you the favor of God if you please him and ask him too.

In prayer a person actually through faithful meditation casts faith upon the object of prayer.
And I have FAITH that Mary and the Saints hear our pleas for prayer and pray to Christ for us. That does NOT mean I worship them in any fashion. They have attained a status higher than I, righteousness. And since they are in communion with Christ, just as we are, they have life in them. And I Do express my wishes to Mary and the Saints the same way I would if they were right next to me. I do the same with God. I do however, reverence God with the fullest honor and glory that he deserves. I don’t give that to Mary or the saints, because it is through Christ that they obtained what they have.

Mary will not grant me any favor. Nor will the Saints, but they will help me communicate my desires to God through Christ, just as the verses in 1 Timothy 2:1-5 tell us to do for our brethren.
 
You guys are caught up for some reason thinking that just because parts of the New Testament were being written or may not have been written yet that this very clear verse that speaks of all scripture period is just talking about the Old Testament and somehow rules out the inspiration of the New.

As a matter of fact Peter calls the letters of Paul scripture in His Epistle! He was actually warning people not to twist them no less, this is direct scriptural evidence that not only were people in New Testament times looking to scripture for truth but that the Apostles had to warn them to not twist the meanings of the scriptures that are further p(name removed by moderator)ointed as being written by Paul!

The Church has been looking to the scriptures written by the Apostles for truth as inspired scripture since the begining.

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother **Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, **[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, **as they do the other scriptures. **
The word for Scriptures in 2 Peter 3:16 that you are referring to in the Greek is γραφὰς. Now, this has two meanings, one being a written material, the other being scripture, also meaning a written material. The verse is not saying that Paul’s writings were scripture, but only that as people would twist Paul’s words, so have they twisted the Scriptures, meaning the Old Testament. If you look at the Gospels and Acts and Romans, the meaning of this word to them is clear, Old Testament. It is the same word, graphos, or graphas. And it is ALWAYS used to refer to the OT. Never anything else. These that the Apostles wrote, were always called letters, or epistles.
 
We also uphold the Apostles and the Nicene creeds and are indeed just as Catholic as you. Our denomination name is Presbyterian yours is Roman Catholic however, we are both part of the Catholic Church, the Universal Christian Church and are equal brothers in Christ.
This is absurd and like calling Judas as Christian as all the other apostles. Please…

Do you even know your own ecclesial community history? You all came out of the Anglican Church who was originally the English Branch of the Catholic Church until King Henry VIII took it over, murdered some bishops and priests and monks and threatened to do the same to anyone who would not accept him as legitimate head of God’s Church. He tried to take God’s Church through naked persecution and then appointed his own secular priests who would be a puppet to his whims just like a new department in the government. The Anglicans thus lost their original apostolic priesthood succession as the original Catholic priests died off or were murdered and no one had a spiritual authority to anoint their replacements. Thus Anglicans have no priesthood (ref: Apostolicae Curae (Anglican Holy Orders Utterly Null and Void). Since American Presbyterians (depending on which sect - since they keep splitting) are an even more recent offshoot that is only in existence since 1706 - barely 300 years old.

Let’s get past the revisionist history shall we? You are not equal brothers in Christ anymore so than Cain was Abel’s equal in their ability to properly worship God and Cain’s descendants were able to stay within the lineage of Adam and Eve that becomes God’s people. You are seperated brothers who are joined precariously and imperfectly to The Catholic Church through your only valid sacrament of baptism. This is the only reason why we do not object to you calling yourselves Christians since there is a hope you will repent and come back. But for those who do not we also know that “not all that call me Lord Lord will enter My Kingdom”. So we pray for you all to return to full communion since we think you have a gravely deficient faith and are at substantial risk of going to hell. But ironically I bet you would object to us praying wth Mary and the saints in trying to get you all reunified into The Catholic Church. How ironic.

James
 
I am convicted of the necessity of the reformation in sheding light on the errors of the RCC. I agree with reformed theology. I believe that God used the reformation to show us that scripture needs to be followed.

You’re interpretations are those that the reformation came about to reform because they were are in error and need reformed.
I would much rather follow the Tradition of Christ’s Church than those of a heretical monk of the fifteenth century who almost certainly didn’t understand the Catholic faith.
 
I tried this on the one that messed up on mine above… Still didn’t work. It has the end quote piece too. I think it may have to do with the numbers you have such as [1] and/or 2 ]. As an IT professional, who also owns a web design business, I think it is a PHP/BBcode parsing issue that needs to be fixed elsewhere, not by us. It isn’t our fault for happening.
The BBcode is very simple. The quote button does not work on multiple levels of quotes that many of us hand edit to keep the thread context and discussion going. So if you blindly press the quote button be prepared to hand edit and ALWAYS preview before you post. It usually just a matter of dropping a closing quote - e.g. a [noparse][/noparse].

Its really simple to edit in the bb code directly and most people lose the last end tag by accidently typing over it in their reply or because they get an extra open one at the end when they quote another level manually.

At any rate - I used to run an IT department too at one time but this bb forum system is an older version I think or they have the multi-level nested quote feature disabled and it requires hand editing if one wants to preserve it from reply to reply.

The best way to deal with it is just copy and paste the opening quote [noparse]

Joe Blows Comments said:
[/noparse]
over and over into each section of text one wants to respond to then be sure to close out each one with its own end quote tag [noparse]

[/noparse] before adding your replies.

But again - ALWAYS preview before posting then edit if its got an open tag somewhere or just delete the opening tag and put a comment in that says “this was so and so’s reply”.

James
 
The BBcode is very simple. The quote button does not work on multiple levels of quotes that many of us hand edit to keep the thread context and discussion going. So if you blindly press the quote button be prepared to hand edit and ALWAYS preview before you post. It usually just a matter of dropping a closing quote - e.g. a [noparse]quote end thingy[/noparse].

Its really simple to edit in the bb code directly and most people lose the last end tag by accidently typing over it in their reply or because they get an extra open one at the end when they quote another level manually.

At any rate - I used to run an IT department too at one time but this bb forum system is an older version I think or they have the multi-level nested quote feature disabled and it requires hand editing if one wants to preserve it from reply to reply.

The best way to deal with it is just copy and paste the opening quote [noparse][/noparse] before adding your replies.

But again - ALWAYS preview before posting then edit if its got an open tag somewhere or just delete the opening tag and put a comment in that says “this was so and so’s reply”.

James
But I did it in a single quote message, and got the same problem. People all across this message board have been seeing the same problem, and it just started two days ago… It isn’t just us.
 
This is absurd and like calling Judas as Christian as all the other apostles. Please…

Do you even know your own ecclesial community history? You all came out of the Anglican Church who was originally the English Branch of the Catholic Church until King Henry VIII took it over, murdered some bishops and priests and monks and threatened to do the same to anyone who would not accept him as legitimate head of God’s Church. He tried to take God’s Church through naked persecution and then appointed his own secular priests who would be a puppet to his whims just like a new department in the government. The Anglicans thus lost their original apostolic priesthood succession as the original Catholic priests died off or were murdered and no one had a spiritual authority to anoint their replacements. Thus Anglicans have no priesthood (ref: Apostolicae Curae (Anglican Holy Orders Utterly Null and Void). Since American Presbyterians (depending on which sect - since they keep splitting) are an even more recent offshoot that is only in existence since 1706 - barely 300 years old.

Let’s get past the revisionist history shall we? You are not equal brothers in Christ anymore so than Cain was Abel’s equal in their ability to properly worship God and Cain’s descendants were able to stay within the lineage of Adam and Eve that becomes God’s people. You are seperated brothers who are joined precariously and imperfectly to The Catholic Church through your only valid sacrament of baptism. This is the only reason why we do not object to you calling yourselves Christians since there is a hope you will repent and come back. But for those who do not we also know that “not all that call me Lord Lord will enter My Kingdom”. So we pray for you all to return to full communion since we think you have a gravely deficient faith and are at substantial risk of going to hell. But ironically I bet you would object to us praying wth Mary and the saints in trying to get you all reunified into The Catholic Church. How ironic.

James
Wow James, you have somehow managed to write the most arrogant post I have ever read on this board. :clapping:

We lowly Christians trust in Christ. We really don’t care what your denomination calls us nor do we recognize your denomination as having any more authority than the rest of the Church. Actually almost 100% of the protestant community sees your denomination as steeped in error possibly to the point of no return.

We are focusing on Christ and spreading his gospel to the world at large. We wish for unity with our Christian brothers and sisters and charitably point our error and admonish sin where it exists. The goal is to be the denomination that is most error free. I think we PCA Presbyterians are leading the pack right now. Of course that could always change, but we know that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church and at least some part of it will allways keep on supporting the truth of the Gospel.

I wish you the best James. I hope that one day you’ll realize that we are all equal brothers in Christ and that He is the way the truth and the life, not any single denomination.

👋
 
You guys are caught up for some reason thinking that just because parts of the New Testament were being written or may not have been written yet that this very clear verse that speaks of all scripture period is just talking about the Old Testament and somehow rules out the inspiration of the New.

As a matter of fact Peter calls the letters of Paul scripture in His Epistle! He was actually warning people not to twist them no less, this is direct scriptural evidence that not only were people in New Testament times looking to scripture for truth but that the Apostles had to warn them to not twist the meanings of the scriptures that are further p(name removed by moderator)ointed as being written by Paul!

The Church has been looking to the scriptures written by the Apostles for truth as inspired scripture since the begining.

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother **Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, **[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, **as they do the other scriptures. **
How many times must we rehash this in this thread?? None of this is Peter declaring Paul’s accounts “scripture” in the NT sense. Did Peter have a first council meeting to declare Paul’s words “scripture” before we get John’s Revelation and other works? No.

You have the cart before the horse here trying to recursively use scripture that does not yet exist to define itself - absurd.

If Peter had thought that Paul’s “LETTERS” where scripture he would NOT have called them letters in the same sentence. He would have said:* "…speaking of this as he does in all his SCRIPTURES (rather than letters). There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.*

Peter is simply saying that in Paul’s LETTERS he mentions some scriptures (remember to the Jews there is ONLY the Old Testament works) that are hard to understand for Jews since they related to Jesus and the new revelations. The “ignorant and unstable” that Peter is talking about are those JEWS who have always twisted the OT scriptures against what the correct truth was (e.g. the Pharisees and Sadducees). Peter is talking about OT scripture NOT NT scripture - NT will not be defined and recognized as scripture for about 330 more years. That is when the Catholic Church and Pope Damasus at the Council of Rome in 382 AD declares its officially scripture.

James
 
Wow James, you have somehow managed to write the most arrogant post I have ever read on this board. :clapping:

We lowly Christians trust in Christ. We really don’t care what your denomination calls us nor do we recognize your denomination as having any more authority than the rest of the Church. Actually almost 100% of the protestant community sees your denomination as steeped in error possibly to the point of no return.

We are focusing on Christ and spreading his gospel to the world at large. We wish for unity with our Christian brothers and sisters and charitably point our error and admonish sin where it exists. The goal is to be the denomination that is most error free. I think we PCA Presbyterians are leading the pack right now. Of course that could always change, but we know that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church and at least some part of it will allways keep on supporting the truth of the Gospel.

I wish you the best James. I hope that one day you’ll realize that we are all equal brothers in Christ and that He is the way the truth and the life, not any single denomination.

👋
I’m Sorry, but I think James is right. Perhaps a bit crude in his presentation, but right none the less. DD, you think that ALL those who call Christ their Lord are “right” in the sight of God. This is not the case. A denomination, meaning a group separating themselves and calling themselves apart from another, is no longer part of the true Body of Christ. There is one truth, one faith, one baptism. And Protestant Denominations, meaning a group that separates itself in protest of the Catholic Church, only has ONE of those three, and that is baptism. You don’t all hold the same faith, or truth. That makes your “Christian borthers and sisters” not of the same union in Christ, because they teach WIDELY varying beliefs. The reason that most Protestant people see the Catholic Church as in error, is because they do not understand the things that happen in the Catholic Church and why.

Sorry, gotta go for now… Crying baby. But I am not done here.
 
If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament and it would be very likely that most people of the time would have been aware of it. Keeping that in mind you can see a reference in Luke as to Jesus and His reply.

Semiramis, who was both Nimrod’s wife and mother, was worshiped as the "mother of god"and a “fertility goddess” because she had to be extremely fertile to give birth to all the pagan incarnate gods that represented Nimrod. She was worshiped throughout the world by each the titles associated with Nimrod’s worship, in addition to many titles unique to herself (Table 2, page 15). For instance, the respective Greek and Roman names applied to the worship of Semiramis include: Aphrodite and Venus, the goddess of love; Artemis and Diana, the goddess of hunting and childbirth85; Athena and Minerva, the goddess of crafts, war and wisdom86; Demeter and Ceres, the goddess of growing things87; Gaea and Terra, symbol of the fertile earth88; Hera and Juno, the protector of marriage and women, who was the sister and wife of Zeus in Greek mythology, and the wife of Jupiter in Roman mythology89; Hestia and Vesta, the goddess of the hearth90; plus Rhea or Ops, who was wife and sister of the Greek horned-god Kronos.91

The Egyptian mother and child were worshiped as Isis with the infant Osiris or Horus seated on his mother’s lap. In India, the mother and child were called Devaki and Krishna, and also Isi and Iswara as they are worshiped to this day. In Asia, they were known as Cybele and Deoius; in pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy; in Greece, as Ceres, the great mother with babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms.

The image of mother with child in her arms was so firmly entrenched in the pagan mind that by the time Christianity appeared on the scene in 30 A.D., The virgin Mary with her god-incarnate son Jesus. Thus, the pagan mother and child mirrors, Christianity as the Roman Catholic worship of Mary with the infant Jesus. In fact, in Tibet, China, and Japan, Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the counterpart of the madonna and child as devoutly worshiped as they were in Rome. Shing Moo, the holy mother in China was portrayed with a child in her arms and a glory around her, exactly as if she had been fashioned by Roman Catholic artisans.

Judges 98

Later, during the time of the prophet Jeremiah, the Jews worshiped the queen of heaven so devoutly that they could not be convinced to give up this paganism even after Jerusalem had been burnt and the land desolated due to this very pagan worship:

Then all the men who knew that their wives had offered incense to other gods, and all the women who stood by, a great assembly, all the people who dwelt in Pathros in the land of Egypt, answered Jeremiah: “As for the word which you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you. But we will do everything that we have vowed, burn incense to the queen of heaven [Semiramis] and pour out libations to her, as we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no evil. But since we left off burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out libations to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” And the women said, "When we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out libations to her, was it without our husbands’ approval that we made cakes for her bearing her image and poured out libations to her?

Prophet Jeremiah 99

This post is in reference to provable history in the reading of ancient script from archaeologist sites.
Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?
Is Catholicism Pagan?
Bogus Babylon
THE UNICORN HUNTERS
Mary

Chick makes a lot of the conventional anti-Marian arguments that are common in Fundamentalism: that Mary is not the Mother of God, that we are not to ask for her intercession, that statues of her should not be venerated, that she was not preserved by God’s grace from sin, etc.[67]
What is distinctive about Chick’s approach is his is claim that “the ‘Mother of God’ that Catholics worship is not the Mary of the Bible. Satan has tricked them into worshiping a counterfeit goddess.”[68] The basis for this claim is a story he borrowed from Alexander Hislop, according to which there was a queen in ancient Babylon named Semiramis. She married her son, Nimrod. After his death, she claimed to have had a virgin birth of another son, Tammuz, who was Nimrod reincarnated. This pair of Semiramis and Tammuz was often depicted in artwork as a mother and child. They form the basis of all of the mother-child statues in the different religions of the world, and when Catholics worship Mary and the Baby Jesus, they are actually worshiping Semiramis and Tammuz.
What is one to make of this? Setting aside the fact that Catholics do not worship Mary, it is still complete nonsense. Hislop’s wild ideas cannot be substantiated historically.[69] We have mother and child images from cultures that predate Babylon. Further, if you want to depict a famous mother, a good way of doing it is by picturing her holding her child. Thus before literacy became widespread Christians often would picture Mary holding the Baby Jesus, and it became an established image in Christian art.
 
Wow James, you have somehow managed to write the most arrogant post I have ever read on this board. :clapping:

We lowly Christians trust in Christ. We really don’t care what your denomination calls us nor do we recognize your denomination as having any more authority than the rest of the Church. Actually almost 100% of the protestant community sees your denomination as steeped in error possibly to the point of no return.

We are focusing on Christ and spreading his gospel to the world at large. We wish for unity with our Christian brothers and sisters and charitably point our error and admonish sin where it exists. The goal is to be the denomination that is most error free. I think we PCA Presbyterians are leading the pack right now. Of course that could always change, but we know that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church and at least some part of it will always keep on supporting the truth of the Gospel.

I wish you the best James. I hope that one day you’ll realize that we are all equal brothers in Christ and that He is the way the truth and the life, not any single denomination.

👋
You have demonstrated remarkable ability to judge everything but yourself here. At least you are consistent in your hyperbole…

So, “He is the way the truth and the life, not any single denomination”?

Your error is imagining that Christ body can be divided against itself and that there is any validity at all to the notion of denomination. The Catholic Church is not a denomination - it is THE ONLY CHURCH. You guys are just clueless to imagine you are a church. You are not - you are an ecclesial community - just a little bit above a common interest club with an ad-hoc structure, no legitimate eclesial authority or priesthood and ever splitting subgroups (new sects and denominations). Soon you will have a seperate group to appeal to and condone every fringe and sinful vice out in the secular community (e.g.ordination of homosexuals,trans-genders, abortion on demand, euthanasia, biological engineering etc. etc.)

Wake up and smell the coffee - the episcopal priests fed up with the liberalization and disharmony of your denomination are leaving in droves to join the Catholic Church. Any wonder why you all have to progressively keep watering down the theology to permit female ordinations and homosexual ordinations to fill the vacancies?

Protestantism will never scale to be able to make any pretense at universality since it is built on the anarchy of “every man with a bible his own pope”. You all might as well just be a bible publishing company with companion readers and go to an Internet model with mp3 videos for worship…

James
 
Ahh, now you are getting into the deeper aspects of Mariology here by referencing the OT. There is a lot of prefiguring of the proper role of Mary here.

To wit:

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

It gets more intense if you want to go deeper. I have participated in a recent thread where I gave quite a bit of this insight. For now contemplate Mary as Daughter Zion and see if Lamentations does not fit perfectly with Mary in the wake of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. Put Lamentations through Mary’s eyes and tell me you can’t see her here…

James
Hi CentralFLJames and TommyWommy how are ye and everybody else?. You hit on the head CentralFLJames that our lady mary is been in Old Testament from word go like god said to satan i but woman betewn you and her offsping so that’s mary and jesus like so we could win this war with foucs of the dark like so in the ead of the day mary is not worship we just pray to her help us to get more of realship with her son and she would not want us her but her first because if we did that than we would forget god and his son jesus, so for the Hail Holy Queen the prayer is to our lady saying that we see her as jesus mother and how he has these gifts **of Mercy
Hail our life, our sweetness
and our hope.**we want have good life we try be nice sweetness to your bf or gf etc so same with god mary sayin that jesus is her sweetness like mother her child and we all hopess and dreams like so we are say there is help us with hopes and dreams like so she can ask jesus answer our hope and our needs etc and jesus is our hope aswell. In this part of the prayer To thee do we cry
poor banished children of Eve
to thee do we send up our sighs
mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.
We are sayin that we our fallan from the our frist humans and we where banished from the garden of eden like so we have sin because adam and eve so because she was our first mother we are relater to them because they where frist father and mother in gods eyes we where banished children of Eve untill jesus died on cross for us. So because we sin and we would like world be sicks free,free from wars,hateing eachother etc so that when this part of the prayer comes in to thee do we send up our sighs
mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears it is sad beacues we could had it all great world with out hurt, pain, sicks and wars etc we are sighing and mourning and weeping because we are saying why those god let wars people dieing from canger,and people killling eachother it’s because free will and because of the fall. And last few lines of the prayer is **Turn then O most gracious advocate
thine eyes of mercy towards us
and after this our exile
show unto us
the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus. ** we ask mary avocate for us to jesus the son god have mercy on us and we our exiled from god because of adam and eve but because she said yes to god that she would be mother of his only beloved son and die for us so debt would be payed that’s why we say at the end and after this our exile
show unto us
the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus. So hope that helped shows the is not wopshing our lady at all and she does not want that, I love this prayer because shows how god can use young 16 year old girl back 2008 years ago human like use but she did not sin and was not born with sin chage what satan did at every start of the world how she can bring god closer to us and to his son jesus answer all your problms and stress of all life and this prayer was writen in 11th century and my mon told me that person that worte it was handcap at time and his mother and father give him to the mocks rise him up so again not mary but god used him so how this easy prayer can mean so much more in it so next read the prayer see the real message in it and all about how our lady wants to help us ask her to talk to god and have Mercy with us not be angry with is because we sin and because of the fall of adam and eve once repent we went chage god will have very much all.Any hope help ye all and hope hear from ye soon good bless:) .ps i have not been on this form in whille i am sry i have been so busy so hope ye tell what ye think posts that i will post.
 
I have to hand it to James. He is really putting forth the effort here. He has pulled all the stops and has declared war. I suppose it is that time. I am not usually one to get angry when people speak falsehoods, but I have to say, it has got to happen sometime. I agree with absolutely everything he has said pretty much.

The bible teaches us to be slow to anger, but be quick to love. I was quick to show my love for Christ by sharing with you, DD, His Word. I have also been slow to anger in this process. I would assume the same for James, as well as any other fervently planted in this conversation. We have shown you good reason and logic that goes against your errors. But you seem to just neglect most of it, and point out elsewhere in the Bible it says something else, that usually you take out of context. Now, I know a bit of Greek, and a little Latin. I can tell you how hard it is to translate something that is punctuationally different from English, into English… It is hard. Now, in the Bible, you have a lot of verses that can be GREATLY misunderstood if you look at it in English. There are punctuation clauses that we created to ease the flow of the verses, but that may not work well for everybody.

When you look at a verse, you see one thing, and when I look at a verse, I see another. Who is correct in their interpretation? Who is correct in their understanding. Well, the Bible tells us that it could only be God. And God works through the Church, the Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church, which has a visible seat in Rome, and a visible community of believers known as Catholics, or Christians, that hold to the SAME traditions pertaining to faith and morals and doctrine, as the rest of that Community. Now, as protestant denominations, you place yourselves outside a said community where the chief parts of the word are communion and unity. Protestants do not have this. And to be part of that group, no matter how little or far splintered you are, you are outside of the Body of Christ.
 
I’m Sorry, but I think James is right. Perhaps a bit crude in his presentation, but right none the less. DD, you think that ALL those who call Christ their Lord are “right” in the sight of God. This is not the case. A denomination, meaning a group separating themselves and calling themselves apart from another, is no longer part of the true Body of Christ. There is one truth, one faith, one baptism. And Protestant Denominations, meaning a group that separates itself in protest of the Catholic Church, only has ONE of those three, and that is baptism. You don’t all hold the same faith, or truth. That makes your “Christian borthers and sisters” not of the same union in Christ, because they teach WIDELY varying beliefs. The reason that most Protestant people see the Catholic Church as in error, is because they do not understand the things that happen in the Catholic Church and why.

Sorry, gotta go for now… Crying baby. But I am not done here.
Well you guys, the truth is harsh and offensive at times.
 
I have to hand it to James. He is really putting forth the effort here. He has pulled all the stops and has declared war. I suppose it is that time. I am not usually one to get angry when people speak falsehoods, but I have to say, it has got to happen sometime. I agree with absolutely everything he has said pretty much.

The bible teaches us to be slow to anger, but be quick to love. I was quick to show my love for Christ by sharing with you, DD, His Word. I have also been slow to anger in this process. I would assume the same for James, as well as any other fervently planted in this conversation. We have shown you good reason and logic that goes against your errors. But you seem to just neglect most of it, and point out elsewhere in the Bible it says something else, that usually you take out of context. Now, I know a bit of Greek, and a little Latin. I can tell you how hard it is to translate something that is punctuationally different from English, into English… It is hard. Now, in the Bible, you have a lot of verses that can be GREATLY misunderstood if you look at it in English. There are punctuation clauses that we created to ease the flow of the verses, but that may not work well for everybody.

When you look at a verse, you see one thing, and when I look at a verse, I see another. Who is correct in their interpretation? Who is correct in their understanding. Well, the Bible tells us that it could only be God. And God works through the Church, the Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church, which has a visible seat in Rome, and a visible community of believers known as Catholics, or Christians, that hold to the SAME traditions pertaining to faith and morals and doctrine, as the rest of that Community. Now, as protestant denominations, you place yourselves outside a said community where the chief parts of the word are communion and unity. Protestants do not have this. And to be part of that group, no matter how little or far splintered you are, you are outside of the Body of Christ.
Look guys. I don’t believe you. I think you are following the false teachings of men and are ignoring scripture because for some reason you doubt the power of God to work in you through His word. I think that there are errors galore that have somehow made it by people in the leadership of the RCC over the years. I think that praying to anyone other than God is unwise, unbenificial, unnecessary, based on a false and weak understanding of reality, and is basically idolatrous.

Nothing you guys have said has changed my mind. Actually I am more fortified in this conviction than before. However it’s nothing against any of you personally. You could just have been taught error and not realized it and are now too afraid to let it go.

Either way, your authority is obviously your denomination. My authority is the Holy Scriptures. We both believe that God communicates with us through our designated authorities. We just don’t recognize each others authorities so it makes communication on these matters almost impossible. The only way that people can be convicted of truth is if it is granted them by God. We can type for days and will never sway each other either way.

I think this thread has ran it’s course. I’m unsubscribing. I’ll see you around.

I wish you the best. Your brother in Christ,

David
 
I have to hand it to James. He is really putting forth the effort here. He has pulled all the stops and has declared war. I suppose it is that time. I am not usually one to get angry when people speak falsehoods, but I have to say, it has got to happen sometime. I agree with absolutely everything he has said pretty much.

The bible teaches us to be slow to anger, but be quick to love. I was quick to show my love for Christ by sharing with you, DD, His Word. I have also been slow to anger in this process. I would assume the same for James, as well as any other fervently planted in this conversation. We have shown you good reason and logic that goes against your errors. But you seem to just neglect most of it, and point out elsewhere in the Bible it says something else, that usually you take out of context. Now, I know a bit of Greek, and a little Latin. I can tell you how hard it is to translate something that is punctuationally different from English, into English… It is hard. Now, in the Bible, you have a lot of verses that can be GREATLY misunderstood if you look at it in English. There are punctuation clauses that we created to ease the flow of the verses, but that may not work well for everybody.

When you look at a verse, you see one thing, and when I look at a verse, I see another. Who is correct in their interpretation? Who is correct in their understanding. Well, the Bible tells us that it could only be God. And God works through the Church, the Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church, which has a visible seat in Rome, and a visible community of believers known as Catholics, or Christians, that hold to the SAME traditions pertaining to faith and morals and doctrine, as the rest of that Community. Now, as protestant denominations, you place yourselves outside a said community where the chief parts of the word are communion and unity. Protestants do not have this. And to be part of that group, no matter how little or far splintered you are, you are outside of the Body of Christ.
I agree with what James said on every count! Good work James.👍
 
Well you guys, the truth is harsh and offensive at times.
Don’t you know it! It is hard to accept some of the things that God wants us to. It is hard trying to accept the things contrary to our conscience, because Satan tempts us in MANY ways.
 
Unfortunately, DD’s heart has been hardened by something. He is unable to accept what is right in front of him. But it happens to all of us, even in the best of times. We fool ourselves. We let Satan throw us around and point us in directions that are contrary to God’s will.

DD, if you read this, I DO believe that God works through me with His word. I am not ignoring scripture. If I find something in the Bible contrary to what I am doing, I stop. I don’t care what the RCC could say about it. If it is flat out contrary, then it goes against God. I have not found anything as such yet. I don’t think I will. However you accuse us of doing the very thing you do, ignoring scripture. We have pointed out scripture that BLATANTLY goes against what you claim, and you only provide us with verses that could “possibly” be used to speak against some of the things we do, but you and most other protestants take them out of context. You have to take the word as a whole, or not at all. You can’t pick and choose which verses to follow.

I am sorry that you do not see our view point. I can only pray that you will someday, as I am just a sower of seeds. God will provide the increase when he is ready.

See you,
David
 
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