Hail, Holy Queen

[CentralFLJames]

Look guys. I don’t believe you. I think you are following the false teachings of men and are ignoring scripture because for some reason you doubt the power of God to work in you through His word. I think that there are errors galore that have somehow made it by people in the leadership of the RCC over the years. I think that praying to anyone other than God is unwise, unbenificial, unnecessary, based on a false and weak understanding of reality, and is basically idolatrous.

Nothing you guys have said has changed my mind. Actually I am more fortified in this conviction than before. However it’s nothing against any of you personally. You could just have been taught error and not realized it and are now too afraid to let it go.

Either way, your authority is obviously your denomination. My authority is the Holy Scriptures. We both believe that God communicates with us through our designated authorities. We just don’t recognize each others authorities so it makes communication on these matters almost impossible. The only way that people can be convicted of truth is if it is granted them by God. We can type for days and will never sway each other either way.

I think this thread has ran it’s course. I’m unsubscribing. I’ll see you around.

I wish you the best. Your brother in Christ,

David

Again, your entire retreat is premised on fallacies.

Your personal fallacies are:

1. That denominationalism is acceptable To Christ.
2. That God will tolerate rebellion in His Church and bless it
3. That your private interpretation is superior to anyone elses
4. That your personal opinion of worship constitutes God’s opinion of worship.
5. Authority can be claimed in an inanimate object (a bible) as if it was a relic or idol.
6. That The Bible came into spontaneous existence on its own authority
7. The Bible is the sole word of God

I refute all of this fallacies as errors as follows:

1. Jesus prayed against denominationalism and this means that it is not His will (John 17:20-23)
2. God annihilated and incinerated the only person (Korah and his 200 followers) who ever dared to cause divisions in His House and challenge divinely appointed authority (Numbers 16 )
3. Peter tells us there is no private interpretation of scripture (2 Peter 1:20)
4. “My ways are not your ways says the Lord”
5. See this entire thread for scripture evidence against idol worship. Bibliolotry divined by private interpretation might as well be sooth saying.
6. History proves this wrong since The Council of Rome by Catholic Pope Damasus in 382 AD brings Christianity its first bible
7. Scripture tells us that God’s word is in the person of Jesus and scripture also tells us that we must follow the apostolic traditions. Ergo - God’s Word is contained firstly In Christ and 2ndly in written word and in oral word and traditions.

There is nothing remaining to say since the errors are refuted entirely.

James

 

[laverita]

Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?
Is Catholicism Pagan?
Bogus Babylon
THE UNICORN HUNTERS

Did I say that? no, I did say If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament.

images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=isis+and+Horus+&btnG=Search+Images

If you deny that these relics dont depict mother and child then you can deny most anything. Mother child worship is nothing new, or unique it has a lot longer history than the catholic church.
They are found all over ancient Mediterranean sites predating Rome.

 

[kobudodave]

Did I say that? no, I did say If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament.

images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=isis+and+Horus+&btnG=Search+Images

If you deny that these relics dont depict mother and child then you can deny most anything. Mother child worship is nothing new, or unique it has a lot longer history than the catholic church.
They are found all over ancient Mediterranean sites predating Rome.

That doesn’t invalidate Mary though. Mary may be worshiped by some, incorrectly, but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches. They are very careful to make sure that this doesn’t happen. But it still does.

 

[laverita]

That doesn’t invalidate Mary though. Mary may be worshiped by some, incorrectly, but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches. They are very careful to make sure that this doesn’t happen. But it still does.

Nor did I imply that. There are other practices that can be found that predate the Catholic church that are not supported in the Hebrew culture. From the book of Jeremiah we see a clear description of mother god worship.

Later, during the time of the prophet Jeremiah, the Jews worshiped the queen of heaven so devoutly that they could not be convinced to give up this paganism even after Jerusalem had been burnt and the land desolated due to this very pagan worship:
In short the queen of heaven was not a big hit with LORD.

** Jeremiah 44:15** Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

16As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

17But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

18But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

19And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

20Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,

21The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?

22So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Did I say that? no, I did say If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament.

images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=isis+and+Horus+&btnG=Search+Images

If you deny that these relics dont depict mother and child then you can deny most anything. Mother child worship is nothing new, or unique it has a lot longer history than the catholic church.
They are found all over ancient Mediterranean sites predating Rome.

Well if you look at the bible only for history you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism - but God destroyed it and incinerated the 200 people involved.

Ref: Korah’s Rebellion Numbers 16

James

 

[laverita]

Well if you look at the bible only for history you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism - but God destroyed it and incinerated the 200 people involved.

Ref: Korah’s Rebellion Numbers 16

James

I was using some facts that are pretty much agreed upon. Case in point you use scripture to defend your faith, but when confronted with scripture that is contrary to your understanding of your faith, it becomes an unreliable source and tradition takes over. Mother and son worship were tradition for many, years before catholics.

If you want to disregard Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. And disregard the archaeologists evidence that the queen of heaven is probably Isis and her son Horus and can not connect the dots that there is an uncanny similarity that is fine by me.

You said that (you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism)

I have drawn a connection between, (this tread is named “Hail,Holy Queen”) AKA, Mary the Mother of God, Queen of heaven).
That connection goes right to the door of catholic tradition. What that means will be found in the reader of the evidence. As for your statement about resisting authority, in the Bible I find no better example than Jesus. Praise the Father that His Son over came the one church in Jerusalem. He resisted the authority of men, and chose to follow God. They claimed to have authority in the name of God by passing this blessing from generation to generation. Yet they demanded the Son of God was to submit to them. Now that authority that the Catholic church professes is also very much like the claims of the Jews in the time of Jesus. Apparently the Spirit that was on the patriarchs was not also passed along. A few like Nicodemus did know and sought Jesus out, but the Church as an institution knew Him not.

 

[kobudodave]

I was using some facts that are pretty much agreed upon. Case in point you use scripture to defend your faith, but when confronted with scripture that is contrary to your understanding of your faith, it becomes an unreliable source and tradition takes over. Mother and son worship were tradition for many, years before catholics.

If you want to disregard Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. And disregard the archaeologists evidence that the queen of heaven is probably Isis and her son Horus and can not connect the dots that there is an uncanny similarity that is fine by me.

You said that (you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism)

I have drawn a connection between, (this tread is named “Hail,Holy Queen”) AKA, Mary the Mother of God, Queen of heaven).
That connection goes right to the door of catholic tradition. What that means will be found in the reader of the evidence. As for your statement about resisting authority, in the Bible I find no better example than Jesus. Praise the Father that His Son over came the one church in Jerusalem. He resisted the authority of men, and chose to follow God. They claimed to have authority in the name of God by passing this blessing from generation to generation. Yet they demanded the Son of God was to submit to them. Now that authority that the Catholic church professes is also very much like the claims of the Jews in the time of Jesus. Apparently the Spirit that was on the patriarchs was not also passed along. A few like Nicodemus did know and sought Jesus out, but the Church as an institution knew Him not.

laverita, have you ever heard of Zoroastrianism? Well, it came far before Christianity in the lands of the Persians. It was a religion that bares MUCH resemblance to Christianity in it’s core beliefs, and in it’s deities. It has two gods, one of good, and one of evil. It also has a messiah type figure, as well as a heaven and hell. It has prophecies that just so happen to resemble our book of Revelations. Interesting huh? So does that mean just because it has been seen and done before, and that we see it as false, that we should stop believing in the God that we do? Or Jesus Christ? Or Satan?

The Bible says that there is NOTHING new under the sun. And the scripture you read from Jeremiah isn’t speaking against Mary. It seems similar, but those people turned away from God to worship their new god. We have done nothing of the sort. God gave Mary a position of honor. Blessed is she among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb. I would say that worshiping Mary is sin. But that is not the intent of the Catholic Church. The intent of the Catholic Church is to hold Mary as an example, a person to look up to. We do not bow to her in worship. We do not burn incense in her name. We do not pour her drink offerings. No, we give her only what she deserves, the title and place of honor as mother of our Lord Jesus.

 

[laverita]

laverita, have you ever heard of Zoroastrianism? Well, it came far before Christianity in the lands of the Persians. It was a religion that bares MUCH resemblance to Christianity in it’s core beliefs, and in it’s deities. It has two gods, one of good, and one of evil. It also has a messiah type figure, as well as a heaven and hell. It has prophecies that just so happen to resemble our book of Revelations. Interesting huh? So does that mean just because it has been seen and done before, and that we see it as false, that we should stop believing in the God that we do? Or Jesus Christ? Or Satan?

The Bible says that there is NOTHING new under the sun. And the scripture you read from Jeremiah isn’t speaking against Mary. It seems similar, but those people turned away from God to worship their new god. We have done nothing of the sort. God gave Mary a position of honor. Blessed is she among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb. I would say that worshiping Mary is sin. But that is not the intent of the Catholic Church. The intent of the Catholic Church is to hold Mary as an example, a person to look up to. We do not bow to her in worship. We do not burn incense in her name. We do not pour her drink offerings. No, we give her only what she deserves, the title and place of honor as mother of our Lord Jesus.

These are all decisions you make for your self. My opinion is that unless their is a clear and I mean clear NT or OT support for what you believe and practice you only have the assurance of other mens opinions. I have and will probably be accused again of doing the work of the devil here. My questioning of mens authority is not against God but questioning men who claim to speak for God is not foolishness. You down play the veneration that has been presented in your well written reply. You are right there is nothing new under sun. That point is made in the history I noted. Did not the LORD call Abram and Moses to come out from the other nations? It was written down the testimony from the witnesses all the way up to Christ. Will you now go back to what the LORD did not clearly point to as being pleasing. You and I both know that the scriptural support for this is weak at best and stands on traditions rather than the written word. Very old traditions I might add. There is one thing you can be sure of the devil knows how to walk a fence line, so close that its hard to tell from a distance just what side he is on. You are absolutely right it does not say Mary. Their is but one LORD, and one chief advisory that has thousands of names, he cares not what you call him so long as he leads away from Jesus. The target is small anything less than Jesus is missing the mark. The devil cares not if you miss in Mary Peter John or Paul all he cares is that you miss Jesus.

 

[laverita]

laverita, have you ever heard of Zoroastrianism?

Do you really think I have not heard, and looked. Do you know how they came to know such things? Do you know that the LORD was looking after those that sought Him from the beginning until today. That the promise of mans restoration was first promised to Eve. that it would be in her seed that God would bring salvation. That a woman would bring Gods redemption. This message has been know from the beginning. Nothing new indeed. And I see no evidence that we worship her from God. But I see evidence that before she was know as Mary she was called Isis.

Did you know that the gospel message is written in the stars in every language today? Did you know that this message was also corrupted to the horoscope to day? The names of the stars that we see all have the same meaning in all languages. The tower of bable come to mind?

 

[Nicene]

Hey! Now that is a different way of looking at it.

She is the mother of Mercy.
She is the mother of our Life.
She is the mother of our Sweetness.
She is the mother of our Hope.

Mercy, Life, Sweetness, Hope = Jesus!

That works pretty well. The prayer card I read it from does not use upper case letters for mercy, life, sweetness or hope. So, I guess that could make a difference in how one understands the prayer, too. Hmmm. Wish I could have a chat with the one who wrote this prayer

I’m still gonna pray it!

Actually that is how the prayer is meant.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[CentralFLJames]

I was using some facts that are pretty much agreed upon. Case in point you use scripture to defend your faith, but when confronted with scripture that is contrary to your understanding of your faith, it becomes an unreliable source and tradition takes over. Mother and son worship were tradition for many, years before catholics.

If you want to disregard Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. And disregard the archaeologists evidence that the queen of heaven is probably Isis and her son Horus and can not connect the dots that there is an uncanny similarity that is fine by me.

You said that (you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism)

I have drawn a connection between, (this tread is named “Hail,Holy Queen”) AKA, Mary the Mother of God, Queen of heaven).
That connection goes right to the door of catholic tradition. What that means will be found in the reader of the evidence…

laverita, you are misunderstanding scripture if you think for a moment that Jesus was rebelling against divinely appointed authority. The passages that speak of Jesus angry with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the lawyers and scribes is nothing about usurping through rebellion their authority. It is Jesus using His divine authority to correct them. This is not an example to be emulated because none of us has a separate divinely appointed authority from God as Jesus did. I do not believe that Luther who was an ordained Catholic monk ever made any claim that God had told him in a vision or revelation that he was called to correct anything in The Church. At least Luther had some authentic ecclesial authority since he was ordained and within that authority he had recourse to his bishop to bring forward his concerns about abuses. But Luther went too far and went completely around his bishop when he did not get the initial response he wanted. Instead, Luther puffed up with his own pride in his own intellectual insights publicly brought forward all new non-apostolic teachings (by faith alone) that he imagined he “discovered” as new teachings 1450 years after the apostles and the Catholic Church was teaching their original instructions of faith. But as anyone who knows a thing about Luther he was mentally unstable in his scrupulosity and was very egotistical and scorned all authority above him (very vulgarly). In fact the man’s personal behavior and attitude was disgraceful and completely lacking in humility. Luther was anything but Christ like.

So not even Luther claimed to be called by God to start the revolution that he did which resulted ultimately in millions dieing over the later centuries.

No Jesus taught that one MUST obey God given authority.

*Matthew 23: 1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 **therefore all **that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. *

Here Jesus explicitly identifies legitimate authority associated with the Chair of Moses. Christ tells us that we must respect this kind of authority since it is divinely appointed. But we are told that authority is not always impeccable in its own personal conduct (recollect King David’s sinfulness). Nevertheless we MUST obey legitimately appointed divine authority. Rebellion is not an option as I have demonstrated what happens to those who rebel against God’s appointed leaders in Korah’s rebellion - its utter destruction and direct delivery to hell.

The Chair of Peter has replaced the Chair of Moses since the OT covenant has been severed (God has torn the temple shroud, vacated the temple and permitted the temple to be destroyed). In reality its the same seat of authority but recast and polished into a perfection of the Old Law. God Himself has relocated that throne of authority to the Catholic Church for this “time of the Gentiles”. God will seat Christ in the person in that same chair of authority at the 2nd coming. But in His absence His Vicar sits there and speaks in the “persona Christi” voice when teaching morals and faith.

If Jesus had ever condoned disobedience and rebellion he would not have submitted himself to be crucified. No, Jesus respected authority even when it was wrong on a matter since He knew that true authority comes only from The Father. When Jesus rose from the dead He was given in the person full authority on heaven and earth and He assigned that to His Church when He blew on the apostles. In particular He appointed Peter as head and thus the new Chair of Peter is established.

Matthew 26:52 “Put your sword down”.

I also want to point out the logical error in assuming that just because you can find similarities in history outside of the Christian faith that may appear to emulate things within the Church this in no way makes them causally related (it is only coincidental). This is a popular mistake in thinking that any student of statistics soon discovers when they are tested for their knowledge and gives rise to such absurd statistical conclusions like “every time it snows on Feb 23 in Omaha the next president elected is always a Democrat” or some such nonsence.

Your heart is in the right place but we just need to get you to cast off your dark-suspicions that the Protestants have put into your heart to blind you to the truth and to accept their error. I discern that you will figure it out on your own soon enough and come into the fullness of the truth - that is The Catholic Church.

God Bless,
James

 

[Church_Militant]

Did I say that? no, I did say If you look in history pre Catholic you see that mother child worship is nothing new. It predated the letters of the new testament.

images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=isis+and+Horus+&btnG=Search+Images

If you deny that these relics dont depict mother and child then you can deny most anything. Mother child worship is nothing new, or unique it has a lot longer history than the catholic church.
They are found all over ancient Mediterranean sites predating Rome.Newsflash for you.

There is no “Mother child worship” in the Catholic faith. Never has been, isn’t now, and never will be.

We didn’t take our beliefs from pre-Christian anything except Judaism. Your point is not really relevant to this discussion.

 

[Church_Militant]

Nor did I imply that. There are other practices that can be found that predate the Catholic church that are not supported in the Hebrew culture. From the book of Jeremiah we see a clear description of mother god worship.

Later, during the time of the prophet Jeremiah, the Jews worshiped the queen of heaven so devoutly that they could not be convinced to give up this paganism even after Jerusalem had been burnt and the land desolated due to this very pagan worship:
In short the queen of heaven was not a big hit with LORD.

** Jeremiah 44:1-**22

This is a really worn out bit of a-C propaganda. There is nothing at all in Catholic Marian devotion that even infers any link to that OT passage aside from the name.

Do you hold that same position with regard to the title “King of Kings” for the Lord Jesus Christ? Here’s why I ask…

Do you worship the King of Kings? Yet that title was also given to godless kings in the OT, does that make the title wrong when applied as it should be? No, it does not. The same thing applies in this case.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes king of kings to Ezra the priest, the most learned scribe of the law of the God of heaven, greeting.

Ezechiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will bring against Tyre Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, the king of kings, from the north, with horses, and chariots, and horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Daniel 2:37 Thou art a king of kings: and the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, and strength, and power, and glory:

2nd Maccabees 13:4 But the King of kings stirred up the mind of Antiochus against the sinner, and upon Lysias suggesting that he was the cause of all the evils, he commanded (as the custom is with them) that he should be apprehended and put to death in the same place.

1st Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show who is the Blessed and only Mighty, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelation 17:14 These shall fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and they that are with him are called, and elect, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his garment, and on his thigh written: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Church_Militant]

I was using some facts that are pretty much agreed upon. Case in point you use scripture to defend your faith, but when confronted with scripture that is contrary to your understanding of your faith, it becomes an unreliable source and tradition takes over.

Mother and son worship were tradition for many, years before Catholics.Hogwash! The fact is that we have always taught in the context of Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterial teachings of the Church. It was that way from the New Testament era and has been for 2,000 years, whereas the error of Sola Scriptura (itself an unbiblical teaching!) only came into being some 500 years ago and has been refuted since day one.

Your problem is that you lack the resources to check your own beliefs in the fullness of Christian context.

If you want to disregard Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. And disregard the archaeologists evidence that the queen of heaven is probably Isis and her son Horus and can not connect the dots that there is an uncanny similarity that is fine by me.

Check your sources though. I wager you will find that you are drawing from someone like Jack Chick or Alexander Hislop. Neither of which is an accurate or objective source.

You said that (you will also find that the tradition of rebellion and protest against authority predated Protestantism)

I have drawn a connection between, (this tread is named “Hail,Holy Queen”) AKA, Mary the Mother of God, Queen of heaven).
That connection goes right to the door of catholic tradition.

Really? I don’t think so.
The three “pillars of the reformation”, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, all believed that Mary was the mother of God.

Mother of God

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 348 and 335.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God.” ( Zwingli Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp., Vol.
6, I, page 639.)

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is a really worn out bit of a-C propaganda. There is nothing at all in Catholic Marian devotion that even infers any link to that OT passage aside from the name.

Do you hold that same position with regard to the title “King of Kings” for the Lord Jesus Christ? Here’s why I ask…

Do you worship the King of Kings? Yet that title was also given to godless kings in the OT, does that make the title wrong when applied as it should be? No, it does not. The same thing applies in this case.

Great preemptive rebuttal CM. By the same reasoning laverita should be calling all books including the bible pagan because the original manuscripts were written on the velum skins of animals that were used in pagan worship rituals and the modern paper in books come from trees that pagans worshipped and burned in their ceremonial fires and funeral rites. And books in general should be disregarded because Egyptian pagans first used them to scribe tales and accounts of their pagan gods and writing too is pagan since hieroglyphics and writings all are originally pagan and so laws are pagan too since the Babylonians first had the law of Hammurabi. Gosh - we should stop using water baptisms too since water was used by pagans in their rituals.

After hearing some of this nonsence the more I am convinced that a large part of the world is still living in the dark ages.

James

 

[Church_Militant]

Great preemptive rebuttal CM. By the same reasoning laverita should be calling all books including the bible pagan because the original manuscripts were written on the velum skins of animals that were used in pagan worship rituals and the modern paper in books come from trees that pagans worshiped and burned in their ceremonial fires and funeral rites. And books in general should be disregarded because Egyptian pagans first used them to scribe tales and accounts of their pagan gods and writing too is pagan since hieroglyphics and writings all are originally pagan and so laws are pagan too since the Babylonians first had the law of Hammurabi. Gosh - we should stop using water baptisms too since water was used by pagans in their rituals.

After hearing some of this nonsense the more I am convinced that a large part of the world is still living in the dark ages.

James

Yeah James, well I hope that no one is silly enough to ride that crazy train all the way to its destination.

It just doesn’t wash, especially since there is no deity ascribed to the Blessed Virgin in Catholicism and never has been. That’s pretty much just a-C wishful thinking and propaganda to try to deceive Catholics away from our most holy faith.

 

[laverita]

Hogwash! The fact is that we have always

Your problem is that you lack the resources to check your own beliefs in the fullness of Christian context.
Check your sources though. I wager you will find that you are drawing from someone like Jack Chick or Alexander Hislop. Neither of which is an accurate or objective source. Really? I don’t think so.
The three “pillars of the reformation”, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, all believed that Mary was the mother of God.

You really dont have to have a PHD to understand the message of the Gospels, it was not hidden from men from the beginning. The same is true in reading and understanding the message, it does not take a PHD. The truth is that the message of a virgin birth was well known, the whole story of the fulfilling of the words that were spoken to Eve and the serpent as I mentioned above. Gen 3, and threw her seed. This promised seed "singular not plural is later pointed to in Abram. we can track this seed to Jesus, all the while learning more details about Him.

There is a very old link that that is common to all ancient people, the visible stars the forty-eight constellations of the twelve signs. There names are used to this day in the highest level of study. just as they were when God detailed his plan for salvation in them. Before written records the stars testify to God. By reason we can conclude that before the tower of babel all men knew this story. The evidence is in the fact that the meaning of the names did not change when God gave men different speech.
asis.com/users/stag/zodiac.html
The proper reading begins in Virgo the virgin and ends in Leo, the Lion from the tribe of Judah. Here is some other evidence that I find interesting in Job, statements from the LORD that have been confirmed by modern observation.

Job 38:31-32

 

[laverita]

I contend that Zoroastrianism, the Samaritans the Egyptians ect ect ect. All knew very well and were worshiping the queen of heaven you now know as Mary. The reference in Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. Is worship of this same Vigro the same virgin from the same message that has been given to men from the beginning. They did not dream this up one day. The LORD was not happy with it. kobudodave is right in referencing the wisdom of Solomon, there is nothing new under the sun. Read Romans 1:18

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

heaven,… o’urano’s …oo-ran-os’…the sky.

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I told you it doesn’t take a PHD to put 2+2 together and get 4. If you insist on listening to men of your choosing that 2+2 = 5 then so be it. If you have read this tread you can not claim ignorance. You can dance around the evidence and reference I’ll willed writers till your blue in the face, it will never change the truth. That ancient cultures knew very well the full meaning and intent of God. They chose to deny His correction. Did God hide Himself until the Catholic Church? I think not He has stretched His hand to all threw the ages, and those that search for Him find Him. You see how simple the word of God is. Ears that hear and eyes that see the LORD has made them both.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I contend that Zoroastrianism, the Samaritans the Egyptians ect ect ect. All knew very well and were worshiping the queen of heaven you now know as Mary. The reference in Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. Is worship of this same Vigro the same virgin from the same message that has been given to men from the beginning. They did not dream this up one day. The LORD was not happy with it. kobudodave is right in referencing the wisdom of Solomon, there is nothing new under the sun. Read Romans 1:18

I told you it doesn’t take a PHD to put 2+2 together and get 4. If you insist on listening to men of your choosing that 2+2 = 5 then so be it. If you have read this tread you can not claim ignorance. You can dance around the evidence and reference I’ll willed writers till your blue in the face, it will never change the truth. That ancient cultures knew very well the full meaning and intent of God. They chose to deny His correction. Did God hide Himself until the Catholic Church? I think not He has stretched His hand to all threw the ages, and those that search for Him find Him. You see how simple the word of God is. Ears that hear and eyes that see the LORD has made them both.

Lavarita - you really have me confused. Are you sure you are “a believer”? Are you suggesting that Mary is not a real genuine Biblical person and is a construction of pagans?

James

 

[kobudodave]

I contend that Zoroastrianism, the Samaritans the Egyptians ect ect ect. All knew very well and were worshiping the queen of heaven you now know as Mary. The reference in Jeremiah 44:15, the queen of heaven worship. Is worship of this same Vigro the same virgin from the same message that has been given to men from the beginning. They did not dream this up one day. The LORD was not happy with it. kobudodave is right in referencing the wisdom of Solomon, there is nothing new under the sun. Read Romans 1:18

I told you it doesn’t take a PHD to put 2+2 together and get 4. If you insist on listening to men of your choosing that 2+2 = 5 then so be it. If you have read this tread you can not claim ignorance. You can dance around the evidence and reference I’ll willed writers till your blue in the face, it will never change the truth. That ancient cultures knew very well the full meaning and intent of God. They chose to deny His correction. Did God hide Himself until the Catholic Church? I think not He has stretched His hand to all threw the ages, and those that search for Him find Him. You see how simple the word of God is. Ears that hear and eyes that see the LORD has made them both.

The Bible does say that the things that are said will be hard to understand in many areas. It sounds to me like you follow astrology, and not the Bible. You keep bringing up stars and what not. God tells us to not mix ourselves up with such things, that, yes, they do contain information, but it is not for us. It is like the Garden of Eden. There were two trees that Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat from. But they were deceived into doing so. There ARE things that are supernatural that God has made that he requests us to stay out of. Some of these are astrology, fortune telling, sorcery, etc. If we do get into them, we are letting temptation, like in the Garden of Eden, to cause us to stumble, and then we become blown about by every wind of doctrine.

If I were you laverita, I would steer clear of any teachings that have to do with the stars. Where the Bible speaks about them is far enough according to God. Divination is of Satan and his lot. The Glory of God our Father is FAR more powerful, and when you look at it in the right light, FAR more appealing.

As for Mary, she was a real person. She was the mother of Jesus the Christ, our Lord and savior. She raised him, and clothed him, and fed him, and she is deserving of some honor and respect for her role. She is the mother of our King. Surely the King’s mother is held in high esteem in His courts. If you were the king, as your father before you, would you not allow your mother the honor of remaining in your palace? Would you not clothe her? Would you not feed her? Would you not continue to give her the respect that she deserves as your mother? If Christ can give such respect to His mother, then why can’t we?

This is not an instant of mother-son worship we have here. We do not worship Mary! We give her respect for being our mother as well. So, in essence (and some of this is analogous), she gave birth to her first born, our one true Brother, the Son of God, the inheritor of the Kingdom of the Father, the Father’s Favored Son, who sits as Prince of Heaven at the right hand of God. That is why it is a “brotherhood” that we have that connects us to Christ, through his blood. Mary is our mother figure, just as sure as God the Father is our Father Figure, and Jesus Christ is our Brother Figure, whom we are to look up to for the guidance we need.

Praying, as a term, has MANY meanings, and only one of them is worship. There are about 6 (maybe more) different words in the Greek language, found in the NT, that can be interpreted as prayer. It is the pitfall of the English language to overly simplify several meanings into one word. Just because we “pray” to Saints and to Mary, does not mean we idolize them. In fact, it is no more idolatrous to ask them to pray for us than it is to ask a fellow Christian. It is no more idolatrous to look to the saints and Mary for inspiration than it is to look up to your preacher/priest/brother/sister/whoever. As long as you don’t take honor away from God, who deserves ALL Honor and Glory, there is nothing wrong with it.