Hail, Holy Queen

[ShellKell]

CentralFLJames;4864441]I am sorry to say Shellkell that you are living in an illusion of belief. If you went to a God fearing, bible believing church you would be in the Catholic Church.

This is of course your oppinion.

Since you have identified yourself as a Protestant then you are not in The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

I am not a Protestant due to the fact that I am not protesting Christ’s church. In fact I have never nor will I protest any church.

Therefore you attend a secular ecclesial community with a congregation who have similar beliefs (but lack the fullness of God’s truth) and obey the teachings of a self-appointed man who took it upon himself to call himself a “man of God” or a “preacher”.

This is a very interesting statement. The men who lead your peticular denomination are appointed by men are they not?. Don’t you vote on who is going to be pope?

But no one can be a priest of God without: 1: Being divinely called by God to be a Priest and 2: Being accepted, trained, proved and ordained into the priesthood by someone who himself already has the divine authority to ordain a priest. Only an apostolic bishop that can trace his apostolic priesthood succession all the way back to the apostle Peter can convey this spiritual authority on a new bishop or priest through a special apostolic blessing and ordination rite. Only then does a man become spiritually endowed with the spiritual authority and the powers to perform the priestly duties and roles of the ecclesial office (teaching with authority, effecting the sacraments and the sacrifice of the mass etc.).

There is only one Holy Priesthood established by Jesus Himself as High Priest. This is the Catholic Priesthood under the Order of Melchizedek (the highest priestly order in the universe - even higher than the Aaronic priesthood). “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchezdek”

This is SELF given, not God given authority.

So in effect you are being taught by a self appointed man who is not teaching with the authority of an apostle

Neither are you.

and who is not giving you the full apostolic gospel teaching and who has no blessings or divine authority to guide you on your walk to salvation. The bible has NO authority onto itself. Nor is it self teaching since this is proved by the widely different beliefs among Protestants.

If you think that all Catholics believe the same thing then you need to pull your head out of the sand. I know that there are churches out there that have ideas conterary to the written word but you try to lump us all in the same catagory.

Clearly the Holy Spirit is NOT teaching Protestants since if He was, being the Spirit of Truth there would only be One Teaching and Just One Church.

Really, using your logic then I could say that if the Holy Spirit was leading the cardinals there would only ONE person to be the pope. I mean the Holy Spirit wouldn’t lead one cardinal in one direction and another cardinal in another would he?.

If your goal is to glorify God then you need to start bringing glory to God. To bring Glory to God you must call to mind the sacrifice of Christ in the memorial of the Mass and offer to God the ONLY pleasing thing to Him - His Dear Son.

This is about as arrogant a statement as I have heard, How can you offer Jesus to God the Father? Man cannot contain Jesus in anything.
Do you own Jesus just like you claim ownership to Gods written word?

I am sorry to say but Protestant “communion” is nothing more than a form of mere fellowship and the only miracle going on is that you all can come together with wildly different beliefs and all claim that is the “symbolic body of Christ” without also seeing that you are doing “symbolic worship” - not authentic worship.

Arrogant statment #2. You don’t know whats going on in the hearts of people.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is of course your oppinion.

The difference between your opinions and what I say is that your opinion differs substantially from what the apostles and the apostolic church say and your lack any credible personal or historical pedigree. What I say is what I have been been told by the apostolic church with over 2,000 years of continuous teaching.

I am not a Protestant due to the fact that I am not protesting Christ’s church. In fact I have never nor will I protest any church.

If you are not accepting Catholic Apostolic Authority as legitimate after having been given the opportunity to know it as truth then you are rejecting The Church and therefore you are Protesting against Jesus’ commandments to obey His appointed leaders.

This is a very interesting statement. The men who lead your peticular denomination are appointed by men are they not?. Don’t you vote on who is going to be pope?

The difference is that the original men were appointed directly by Jesus and these have the authority of the divine office of the priesthood - a special ordination of apostolic blessing and authority. These have specific authority to ordain those who are called by God and are accepted into the priesthood by God’s ecclesial authorities. The apostolic succession and authority is unbroken. The person who is elected to the Chair of Peter to become Pope is already ordained a bishop. The pope is simply one bishop among all the others who the cardinals (senior bishops) elect as the one to be the leader. It is only rarely that the church goes outside of its current bishopry to find another leader - and in those cases they are first ordained as a bishop. The early church always voted or decided among themselves through various means who was to be the replacement bishop for anyone who died (ref. Mathias replacing Judas).

This is SELF given, not God given authority.

You don’t seem to know our scripture well? Jesus chose all the original apostles and he appointed them with the authority to rule in his absence and to appoint their replacements.

Neither are you.

I am taught by an apostolic authority and was confirmed in the faith by an apostolic bishop with a physical laying on of hands - which imparts spiritual charisms. I myself am of course not infallable nor impeccable But I do not teach my own dogmas but rather only convey what has been handed down to me - which is the Catholic Catechism that I can refer anyone to on a matter of dispute.

Where do you point somone to for authoritative teaching of bible verses that contradict with somone else’e belief in your faith community?

If you think that all Catholics believe the same thing then you need to pull your head out of the sand. I know that there are churches out there that have ideas conterary to the written word but you try to lump us all in the same catagory.

There are no doubt many Catholics who are not as well verses in the faith as others since not everyone can be a A student so to speak. But the good news is that this is irrelevant since all that matters is that we have one single teaching in the Catechism and if anyone needs correcting it can be done easily from one authoritative source.

Really, using your logic then I could say that if the Holy Spirit was leading the cardinals there would only ONE person to be the pope. I mean the Holy Spirit wouldn’t lead one cardinal in one direction and another cardinal in another would he?.

But by your divisional logic that would divide the Trinity against each of the 3 Divine Persons or divide each of the 12 apostles against each other. This kind of thinking is part and parcel of Protestantism not Catholicism and so you thus reveal here your true faith - Protestantism (the church of divisions).

For the records you will not find a cardinal or a bishop teaching dogma contrary to official Catholic teachings or this bishop or cardinal will automatically excommunicate himself and be censured.

This is about as arrogant a statement as I have heard, How can you offer Jesus to God the Father? Man cannot contain Jesus in anything.
Do you own Jesus just like you claim ownership to Gods written word?

In the same why Christ offered himself on the cross. Catholics re-present that same sacrifice of Christ in each Daily Mass by effecting the conversion of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ and offering it up to God. This is what opens a channel of life giving grace to The Church and her members (and for the rest of the world who we pray for and offer it up for also).

Arrogant statment #2. You don’t know whats going on in the hearts of people.

What is going on in a Protestant communion service is not a function of belief or what is in one’s heart. All that matters is what is really-present. Lacking a valid priesthood Protestants simply lack the divine authority to convert the bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ. God will not honor this request without a valid priesthood anymore so than God accepted Cain’s sacrifice but accepted Abel’s. It is arrogant to believe that just anyone can effect the sacraments of body and blood of Christ and even sacrileges to attempt it outside of the apostolic priesthood.

Have I clarified your questions now?

James

 

[TommyWommy]

Please take another look at the prayer

Hail, holy Queen,** Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!**
To thee do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve, to thee do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

        Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

        That we may be made worthy of the 
        promises of Christ.

This says: Mother of:

 -mercy       - our life   - our sweetness   - our hope

Who is mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope? Jesus! Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and thus these Words are meant to describe her son

I have a recorded version of the Rosary I listen to in my car. I recently noticed that when they say the prayer they use the words, “Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy. Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.” They put an extra “hail” in there. I also noticed that the following verses from the familiar hymn make the life, sweetness and hope distinctly refering to Mary, not Jesus.

Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!

Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!

So, there are variations to this prayer with seemingly different emphasis. Why do I care?

I’m simply pointing out that I understand why Protestants would be uncomfortable with this and regard it as idolatry in light of THEIR belief system.

Doesn’t alter MY belief, though.

I still love you, Mary!

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have a recorded version of the Rosary I listen to in my car. I recently noticed that when they say the prayer they use the words, “Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy. Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.” They put an extra “hail” in there. I also noticed that the following verses from the familiar hymn make the life, sweetness and hope distinctly refering to Mary, not Jesus.

Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!

Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!

So, there are variations to this prayer with seemingly different emphasis. Why do I care?

I’m simply pointing out that I understand why Protestants would be uncomfortable with this and regard it as idolatry in light of THEIR belief system.

Doesn’t alter MY belief, though.

I still love you, Mary!

Frankly, Protestants have more important things to be concerned with than if Catholics over venerate Mary. No Protestant who commits a grave post-baptismal sin (fornication, abortion, masturbation, lustful thoughts, adultery, slander, murder, calumny etc.) is “saved” as they imagine themselves to be. Without sacrificial confession, unless these can perform a PERFECT CONTRITION and perfectly repent of these sins before they die (which takes special grace from God and is impossible without it) they won’t have a prayer of escaping hell. Adding disrespect to Jesus’ mother and attacking legitimate veneration and doing what scripture tells us we should do (i.e. “all nations will call me [Mary] blessed”) only puts them deeper into sin and deeper into the pits of eternal punishment. God help them is all I can say.

The clear and immediate case that completely ends all debate on this matter is to observe that every Catholic begins their prayers with the sign of the cross and the words “In the name of the Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit”. This is the way that scripture tells us we should pray - in Jesus’ name. And scripture also tell us that nothing we ask in Jesus’ name will be denied. So when we ask Mary to pray for us or when we pray to the saints it is ALL subordinate mediation THROUGH Christ and is only granted through His permission. So it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to worship Mary when we first open our prayer through Jesus.

It’s like writing a letter to Jesus and addressing the envelope to Jesus and asking him to open it and approve of the letter. Nothing goes around Jesus - if he approves of the prayer it is permitted otherwise it is disallowed by Him.

1. Open prayer: “in the name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (like writing on an envelope addressed to “the Lord”)
2. speak prayers (which may contain prayers to the saints as well - subject to Jesus’ approval)
3. Close prayer “Amen” or “we ask these things through Christ our Lord Amen” (seals the envelope and its delivered to God.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WORSHIP MARY WITH A PRAYER FIRST SPOKEN THROUGH CHRIST’S NAME. This puts Christ as mediator of all subsequent prayers and then subject to Christ’s permission and assent and lets a saint enjoin our prayers through SUBORDINATE mediation. If Jesus does not like what he hears - the prayer is not permitted. Does anyone not trust God enough to know that He will never let an occasion of prayer to become an occasion of to sin if we ask Him for something? Only somone who does not trust God can make a claim that Catholics worship Mary. It’s simply impossible to do when its a prayer made subject to His name.

Non-Catholics - give it a rest and start trusting God and start worrying about your own soul’s that have slim chances of making it outside of The Catholic Church.

James

 

[light1house]

Lavarita - you really have me confused. Are you sure you are “a believer”? Are you suggesting that Mary is not a real genuine Biblical person and is a construction of pagans?

James

I read back a few pages here I dont see the connection you are making that Mary is not real. With that comments on stars names and the bible message, in this message in the stars asis.com/users/stag/zodiac.html. looks like the message that is lacking the identity as being Mary, we now know that Mary was virgin that had the Son of God. Its an interesting concept that deals with all kinds of pre Christian, pagan beliefs, I have also heard other christians comment on it. Not in the context that it replaces the bible story but that it supports it. It implies that the God of Abraham did not just appear in 1900 BC. A hotly debated subject by historians that are atheist.

The Bible does say that the things that are said will be hard to understand in many areas. It sounds to me like you follow astrology, and not the Bible. You keep bringing up stars and what not. God tells us to not mix ourselves up with such things, that, yes, they do contain information, but it is not for us. It is like the Garden of Eden. There were two trees that Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat from. But they were deceived into doing so. There ARE things that are supernatural that God has made that he requests us to stay out of. Some of these are astrology, fortune telling, sorcery, etc. If we do get into them, we are letting temptation, like in the Garden of Eden, to cause us to stumble, and then we become blown about by every wind of doctrine.

If I were you laverita, I would steer clear of any teachings that have to do with the stars. Where the Bible speaks about them is far enough according to God. Divination is of Satan and his lot. The Glory of God our Father is FAR more powerful, and when you look at it in the right light, FAR more appealing.

It looks as if you are willing to call information or knowledge of some thing the same as following it “astrology.” Its true that in the garden they were deceived, the method used was to question what God said. The devil also used scripture with Jesus in the wilderness. This tactic has been used over and over again. Is it a far fetched idea that the salvation of God was written in the heavens, then suffered the same distortion of its meaning by the devil. The horoscope distortion is still with us today people use it to determine their lives that is certainly not Gods intention. It looks like what laverita is saying is look at the implications not follow the stars. We have a much better vision of the full meaning today, in the new and old testaments, after much of the story of the stars have been relieved. It is simply a confirmation of God at work before the written word or the bible. I dont think its star worship. Any more than you dont call the veneration of Mary worship. I find it interesting and an important link that is not talked about much.

 

[light1house]

It’s like writing a letter to Jesus and addressing the envelope to Jesus and asking him to open it and approve of the letter. Nothing goes around Jesus - if he approves of the prayer it is permitted otherwise it is disallowed by Him.

1. Open prayer: “in the name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (like writing on an envelope addressed to “the Lord”)
2. speak prayers (which may contain prayers to the saints as well - subject to Jesus’ approval)
3. Close prayer “Amen” or “we ask these things through Christ our Lord Amen” (seals the envelope and its delivered to God.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WORSHIP MARY WITH A PRAYER FIRST SPOKEN THROUGH CHRIST’S NAME. This puts Christ as mediator of all subsequent prayers and then subject to Christ’s permission and assent and lets a saint enjoin our prayers through SUBORDINATE mediation. If Jesus does not like what he hears - the prayer is not permitted. Does anyone not trust God enough to know that He will never let an occasion of prayer to become an occasion of to sin if we ask Him for something? Only somone who does not trust God can make a claim that Catholics worship Mary. It’s simply impossible to do when its a prayer made subject to His name.

Non-Catholics - give it a rest and start trusting God and start worrying about your own soul’s that have slim chances of making it outside of The Catholic Church.

James

If all prayers are intercepted by Jesus just what is the logic in sending it Mary or saints? Are they capable of more than Jesus. Would you be offended if your children did not come you directly but went to their grandmother to ask for permission to go to the movies? Just doesn’t make sound right to me, sounds more like distancing yourself instead of drawing close.

 

[kobudodave]

If all prayers are intercepted by Jesus just what is the logic in sending it Mary or saints? Are they capable of more than Jesus. Would you be offended if your children did not come you directly but went to their grandmother to ask for permission to go to the movies? Just doesn’t make sound right to me, sounds more like distancing yourself instead of drawing close.

You miss the fact that we are to pray intercession for each other, as said in 1 Timothy chapter 2. Those who are in heaven are STILL the Body of Christ, made alive in Him who died for us. We are still in communion with them as the Body of Christ. We only ask that they pray for us also, just as we ask our brothers and sisters in our own congregation.

If Christ is the ONLY intercessor, then why does Paul exhort us to intercede for our brethren? All things are done THROUGH Christ, but not by Christ alone. Also, why does Christ give the Church the ability to bind and loose? There is a larger puzzle here, and protestants are missing a few vital pieces to be able to see the whole thing.

 

[light1house]

You miss the fact that we are to pray intercession for each other, as said in 1 Timothy chapter 2. Those who are in heaven are STILL the Body of Christ, made alive in Him who died for us. We are still in communion with them as the Body of Christ. We only ask that they pray for us also, just as we ask our brothers and sisters in our own congregation.

I looked up the passage and see nothing that indicates praying to people in heaven.

If Christ is the ONLY intercessor, then why does Paul exhort us to intercede for our brethren? Also, why does Christ give the Church the ability to bind and loose? There is a larger puzzle here, and protestants are missing a few vital pieces to be able to see the whole thing.

I would imagine that it my depend on your definition of intersession, and binding and loosening. You seem to think that it allows one to function independent of Christ, Jesus handles heaven and the catholics handles earth. Perhaps the catholics have added a few pieces and find a verse here and there that apparently supports this interpretation.

All things are done THROUGH Christ, but not by Christ alone.

Did the Apostles take credit or claim that they did some work with out Christ? Better put did they claim to have necessarily done something that required their personal presents or own strength? In context of your whole post, intercession, praying to people in heaven, you then reference passages that to you indicate Christ is limited without help. My understand of this is that He uses us to accomplish these things not because we add something, that causes it to happen. But because He is the something that makes it happen.

John 15:7 comes to mind, If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. This passage clearly has a condition with it, that does not indicate function to bind and loose unless Jesus words abide you. It goes further than just bind and loose it says ask what ever you wish. If you have ever experienced the power of Jesus you would know just as the Apostles did that it is not in the absence but rather in the abundance of Jesus presents that He uses you. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. This is not some ticket that you hold to use as you please, this relationship is built between Jesus and His brothers, not passed on to the next in some man made line of succession. Your statement above apparently contradicts Jesus Himself. I could reference any number of verses that also indicate this concept, but one verse taken out of context with the larger picture appears to support your opinion that, (All things are done THROUGH Christ, but not by Christ alone) You see the ability to bind and loose is decided by and then the power to fulfill it both come from Jesus threw you. Take Him out of the equation and your nothing but a withered branch ready for the fire. This power always brings glory to God.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

 

[kobudodave]

Did the Apostles take credit or claim that they did some work with out Christ? Better put did they claim to have necessarily done something that required their personal presents or own strength? In context of your whole post, intercession, praying to people in heaven, you then reference passages that to you indicate Christ is limited without help. I understand it to mean that He uses us to accomplish these things not because we add something that causes it to happen.

John 15:5 comes to mind, If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. This passage clearly has a condition with it, that does not indicate function to bind and loose unless Jesus words abide you. It goes further than just bind and loose it says ask what ever you wish. If you have ever experienced the power of Jesus you would know just as the Apostles did that it is not in the absence but rather in the abundance of Jesus presents that He uses you. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. This is not some ticket that you hold to use as you please, this relationship is built between Jesus and His brothers, not passed on to the next in some man made line of succession. Your statement above apparently contradicts Jesus Himself. I could reference any number of verses that also indicate this concept, but one verse taken out of context with the larger picture appears to support your opinion that, (All things are done THROUGH Christ, but not by Christ alone) You see the ability to bind and loose is decided by and then the power to fulfill it both come from Jesus threw you. Take Him out of the equation and your nothing but a withered branch ready for the fire. This power always brings glory to God.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Did God need Moses? Did God need Abraham? No. The answer is no. But why did God give these men authority on Earth to do His will if he didn’t need them? Because that was the way God wanted it. He designed the World to be run by human hands, and he designed His Church to be run by human hands. That is not to say that God didn’t have His hand in running it. He did, but he gave men control based off of their knowledge of His will. The same goes for the New Testament Church! Gad left men in control! And it was to certain men. He gave them the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. And he gave them the “office” of the Episcopate. An office. Meaning that it would be succeeded. An office that, when left vacant, would be filled again. You can see in 1 and 2 Timothy that Paul entrusted Timothy with the function of Bishop, to add to the Church more presbyters and other Bishops. This is succession. Also, look at scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#tradition-I and you will see that even in the 1st century, the idea of succession was well known, and practiced.

You seem to think that I meant that the things that are done here are without Christ. You put words in my mouth. When I said that all things are done through Christ, I meant that very thing; that because of Christ all things are done. But that doesn’t mean that Christ does all things. We are the workers of the Lord. We are His hands, His feet. We are the branches of the vine, of which do His will.

The world was setup to work FOR Christ, for His glory, and for the glory of the entire Trinity. We work FOR Him. That doesn’t mean that He NEEDS us to do these things for Him, but he requests it. He wills it! WE are to bear much fruit for Him. But we cannot bear that fruit without that vine to hold us up. You see, we are the branches that are connected to the vine, so that through that vine, we have the strength to do the will of the Father. We do the will of the Father. It is by **our **work that our fruits shall be known. The branch bears the fruit, and we do the work. The vine is our support. If it weren’t for that vine, we would be nothing.

So, not all things are done by Christ alone. This is our purpose. To serve Him. He works through us, meaning, we share in His ministry. We are the Body of Christ, and rightfully so, we do the work. Your brain doesn’t do all the heavy lifting does it? It doesn’t cook the meals. It doesn’t mop the floor. No, it gives the Body it’s instruction. We have received our instruction from Christ, and it is to listen to His chosen leaders, for He has given them the authority, just as God gave Moses, and Moses to others, to lead us.

 

[kobudodave]

I looked up the passage and see nothing that indicates praying to people in heaven.

Then you do not recognize that they still live through Christ’s sacrifice. They are still a part of the Body of Christ. I am not going to cut off my hand to spite my face. That is what you are telling me to do.

 

[kobudodave]

I would imagine that it my depend on your definition of intersession, and binding and loosening. You seem to think that it allows one to function independent of Christ, Jesus handles heaven and the catholics handles earth. Perhaps the catholics have added a few pieces and find a verse here and there that apparently supports this interpretation.

And herein lies the problem. Christians can’t agree on the “definition” of most things. God gave us the Church to keep this from happening. There will always be those who have their own ideas, but the Church is the pillar and the bulwark of the faith, the guardian of the truth, and only she can interpret what that truth really and fully is.

I never said that the ability to bind and loose works independent of Christ. In fact, I feel that it is Christ working through the Church. Just like your brain working to affect the body to do it’s will.

There is more than enough scripture to back up the role of binding and loosing, as well as forgiving and not forgiving sins. scripturecatholic.com/confession.html#confession-I

 

[light1house]

You seem to think that I meant that the things that are done here are without Christ. You put words in my mouth.

Your words

All things are done THROUGH Christ, but not by Christ alone.

Jesus words

for without Me you can do nothing

The whole difference we have is this. scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#tradition-I

Without Matthew 16:18 an other verse in my opinion taken out of the larger context of the NT letters and this scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#tradition-I
we find ourselves in the same fix as I have seen most everywhere here. It all boils down to authority that you profess to have over everyone.

 

[light1house]

Then you do not recognize that they still live through Christ’s sacrifice. They are still a part of the Body of Christ. I am not going to cut off my hand to spite my face. That is what you are telling me to do.

Thats your opinion that is having a hard time finding Christ words to support your concept.
Did the Jews pray to Moses after he died of anyone else. Did the Apostles?

 

[kobudodave]

Your words

Jesus words

The whole difference we have is this. scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#tradition-I

Without Matthew 16:18 an other verse in my opinion taken out of the larger context of the NT letters and this scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#tradition-I
we find ourselves in the same fix as I have seen most everywhere here. It all boils down to authority that you profess to have over everyone.

Can you not see that I actually agree with you that it is all because of Jesus? All I said was that it is not done by Jesus alone. He does it through us.

I do not have ANY authority over you. It is Jesus Christ and His Church that has authority. You obviously haven’t read your Bible thoroughly enough. It clearly shows the Church as the authority in Christ’s absence. This does NOT mean that the Church works separate from Christ. He says He is with us always. He works through the Church. So, in reality, the Church **IS **Christ’s authority on Earth. It is your choice to deny that authority, which most protestants do. I once did. I was a member of the Church of Christ. The problem with Scripture as your authority is that you and the rest of the world can interpret that bit of Scripture to your hearts desire and see whatever you want to see. The difference between the rest of the world that interprets it how they see fit and the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church has the history to back up their authority. And God NEVER wanted his Church to be splintered over such a thing. This is why he gave us an authoritative institution, the Church.

 

[light1house]

And herein lies the problem. Christians can’t agree on the “definition” of most things. God gave us the Church to keep this from happening. There will always be those who have their own ideas, but the Church is the pillar and the bulwark of the faith, the guardian of the truth, and only she can interpret what that truth really and fully is.

I never said that the ability to bind and loose works independent of Christ. In fact, I feel that it is Christ working through the Church. Just like your brain working to affect the body to do it’s will.

There is more than enough scripture to back up the role of binding and loosing, as well as forgiving and not forgiving sins. scripturecatholic.com/confession.html#confession-I

We have the word threw His chosen representatives, it is to be used to keep us in the truth and know the truth. The written word can not lie, and man can. A man with out the Spirit can not read and understand the word. But a man without the Spirit can read it but not know it.

Church is the pillar and the bulwark of the faith, the guardian of the truth, and only she can interpret what that truth really and fully is.

Then why is it that the NT letters dont agree with the church in the basics. Why is it that catholics get all upset and throw this at everything they have no biblical answer for including the bible? I have the right to make a judgment for myself, its my life and Im not so quick as you to give it into the hands of another man.

 

[kobudodave]

Thats your opinion that is having a hard time finding Christ words to support your concept.
Did the Jews pray to Moses after he died of anyone else. Did the Apostles?

There is a lot that is found in the epistles that Jesus isn’t directly known to have said, yet you follow their words just as Jesus’. We know for a fact there were things that we NEVER written in Scripture.

When Paul wrote to the Churches, and told them to hold fast to the Oral Traditions he left them, and to the traditions by mouth or by letter, he did not happen to mention exactly what those Traditions were. So we know for a fact that not EVERYTHING is contained in the Scriptures. The epistles were mainly corrections directed at the congregations for not following all of the Traditions as they should have. We know that there are Traditions passed on that are not included in the Scripture because we can see them in effect in 1st and 2nd century writings of the early Church Fathers.

There is no evidence that they did, I will give you that… But the idea is sound. Think about it. It is not exactly prayer, in the sense of Worship. It is, however, communion through the idea that they are still alive through Christ. They are STILL part of the Body, and we have no right to cut them out of it. We pray for them, they pray for us. It is no different than you praying for your fellow congregants and they for you.

 

[kobudodave]

We have the word threw His chosen representatives, it is to be used to keep us in the truth and know the truth. The written word can not lie, and man can. A man with out the Spirit can not read and understand the word. But a man without the Spirit can read it but not know it.

Then why is it that the NT letters dont agree with the church in the basics. Why is it that catholics get all upset and throw this at everything they have no biblical answer for including the bible? I have the right to make a judgment for myself, its my life and Im not so quick as you to give it into the hands of another man.

Where does Scripture support what you are saying here? I put my life in God’s hands. I trust the institution that He placed on this Earth, that he gave charge to. The Church, the Office of the Episcopate, is the Shepherd of the flock in Christ’s absence. The Bible supports this, and even says so directly. So if the Church, an institution, is not supposed to “shepherd” by guiding us and keeping us, then what is it for? If everyone can decide for themselves what is right and wrong, then why put us in the charge of the “Church”? That is chaos, and is nothing but confusion. And God is not the author of confusion.

 

[light1house]

When Paul wrote to the Churches, and told them to hold fast to the Oral Traditions he left them, and to the traditions by mouth or by letter, he did not happen to mention exactly what those Traditions were.

or by letter
We have the OT and the NT letters. Tradition coming from the same God would not contradict the writings. God is unchanging. We can also see the succession of the Davids thrown threw the ages, that would not depart, it was far from being a valid repository of inflatable representation of God.

 

[light1house]

Where does Scripture support what you are saying here? I put my life in God’s hands. I trust the institution that He placed on this Earth, that he gave charge to. The Church, the Office of the Episcopate, is the Shepherd of the flock in Christ’s absence. The Bible supports this, and even says so directly. So if the Church, an institution, is not supposed to “shepherd” by guiding us and keeping us, then what is it for? If everyone can decide for themselves what is right and wrong, then why put us in the charge of the “Church”? That is chaos, and is nothing but confusion. And God is not the author of confusion.

You put your understanding and relationship to Jesus in the hands of men that claim to be the only repository of the truth and life of Jesus. The very same thing as this passage, the catholic church is the same as the church in Jesus day.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

What is the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees claiming Abraham and the catholic church claiming Peter?
You both claim authority by line of succession.

 

[kobudodave]

or by letter
We have the OT and the NT letters. Tradition coming from the same God would not contradict the writings. God is unchanging. We can also see the succession of the Davids thrown threw the ages, that would not depart, it was far from being a valid repository of inflatable representation of God.

You are still leaving out the Oral Tradition. It is just as vital to the Church as ANY written letter. And the Holy Spirit was given to protect it (2 Tim 1:12-14). The Deposit of Faith, passed on by the laying on of hands, protected by the Holy Spirit. You deny that the Lord our God has the ability to preserve an oral Tradition through men. You have doubt in the ability of God. For Christ himself told the apostles that he would give them the Spirit that would lead them into all truth. And that spirit was passed on, and still leads the Catholic Church through all truth.

Paul trusted that the Holy Spirit could protect the Deposit of Faith, why can’t you?