Hail, Holy Queen

[kobudodave]

You put your understanding and relationship to Jesus in the hands of men that claim to be the only repository of the truth and life of Jesus. The very same thing as this passage, the catholic church is the same as the church in Jesus day.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

What is the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees claiming Abraham and the catholic church claiming Peter?
You both claim authority by line of succession.

Not only Peter, but EVERY office of EVERY apostle. Just as Christ was of the line of David, so are our Presbyters of the line of Christ, the chief priest, who gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, and the charge of overseeing His flock to all the apostles. There is still a line of succession. The Pharisees and the Sadducees did not hold to that which they were instructed, down through the ages. In fact, that sounds a bit like the Protestant Churches, who are not holding to the Traditions they were prescribed. You claim that some written words hold the only meaning you need, yet none of you can agree on WHAT they mean.

It is obvious that you do not trust God to make sure His followers have a way of knowing the truth. Instead, you shepherd yourselves. You interpret the scriptures the way you choose. You forget the Word that was passed orally, claiming that it cannot be trusted, even though God set in motion that it could be, through the Holy Spirit.

 

[light1house]

You are still leaving out the Oral Tradition. It is just as vital to the Church as ANY written letter. And the Holy Spirit was given to protect it (2 Tim 1:12-14). The Deposit of Faith, passed on by the laying on of hands, protected by the Holy Spirit. You deny that the Lord our God has the ability to preserve an oral Tradition through men. You have doubt in the ability of God. For Christ himself told the apostles that he would give them the Spirit that would lead them into all truth. And that spirit was passed on, and still leads the Catholic Church through all truth.

Paul trusted that the Holy Spirit could protect the Deposit of Faith, why can’t you?

I see you avoided my reference to John and the similarity to catholics and the church in Jesus time. I believe that the traditions were the teaching of the Apostles and they are recorded in the NT letters. They knew their were false teachers in their time as well as now, in light of that I find it rather hard to believe that they would leave out praying to dead saints and Mary. That they forgot to mention that Mary was the queen of heaven. There are other points like Peter was the head of them all. That the office of this highest office was passed to an appointed successor. Your faith is rooted in some scripture and mostly tradition unwritten or recored by the Apostles letters.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=316679
Its late thank you for the conversation.

 

[light1house]

It is obvious that you do not trust God to make sure His followers have a way of knowing the truth. Instead, you shepherd yourselves. You interpret the scriptures the way you choose. You forget the Word that was passed orally, claiming that it cannot be trusted, even though God set in motion that it could be, through the Holy Spirit.

No I have a shepherd and I know His voice. He has given me a new heart and Spirit, He teaches me, He has lead me to hear and read from many sources confirming and teaching His truth. I listen to you and tell you what I have learned, all you can tell me is that you are right because we have passed the right. Maybe some day you will realize that God, His Son and Holy Spirit are working outside the catholic church, believe it or not

 

[kobudodave]

I didn’t see a reference to John… Could you repost that?

As for your reference to Matthew, I thought I answered back fairly well. Here it is incase you missed it:

Not only Peter, but EVERY office of EVERY apostle. Just as Christ was of the line of David, so are our Presbyters of the line of Christ, the chief priest, who gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, and the charge of overseeing His flock to all the apostles. There is still a line of succession. The Pharisees and the Sadducees did not hold to that which they were instructed, down through the ages. In fact, that sounds a bit like the Protestant Churches, who are not holding to the Traditions they were prescribed. You claim that some written words hold the only meaning you need, yet none of you can agree on WHAT they mean.

You misunderstand what the “letters” of the Apostles were meant for. They don’t contain the entirety of Church teachings. They can’t. Paul obviously told them more than he wrote. He mentions to them about the things he taught to them. Meaning, that he was referring to previous teachings, of which we have no record in the form of writing. This is not surprising, since he tells them to follow the ORAL as well as WRITTEN traditions.

Our faith is rooted in ALL scripture, as well as the passed traditions that we received from the Apostles. Think of it like a desk that you buy from Wal-mart. It is not put together, so you have to assemble it. Now, because you know how to work with your hands, and you have a brain, you could figure out how to use the tools you have been given to put it together. However, you might do a sloppy job without further instruction. Some might just give up. So you look to the instructions that were written as well. Now, these instructions don’t tell you how to turn the screwdriver, or lift the hammer. Those things were already taught to you. The instructions only help you to do it a little better by clearing up the way of how to do it right. But they don’t give you the whole picture, or every detail on assembly. For that you have to rely on something you were already told.

I know that analogy is not the best, but it is late, and I am tired. That was l I could come up with… I will have something better for the next time.

 

[kobudodave]

I listen to you and tell you what I have learned, all you can tell me is that you are right because we have passed the right. Maybe some day you will realize that God, His Son and Holy Spirit are working outside the catholic church, believe it or not

Of this, I have no doubt. Every Christian church has parts of the truth. I fully believe that God works through ALL faiths. Because they ALL have portions of the Truth. This is how God calls us to Him.

But the Catholic Church has the Fullness of the truth. There can only be ONE Truth, ONE Faith, ONE Church. Not the many that are out there. So, the answer is, which one is it? For me, it has to be one or none. The Catholic Church has the history and proof that I need to believe it is from God. It is not perfect. Nothing is. But it contains the Fullness of the Truth. If I am to take Scripture as inspired, I have to accept EVERYTHING it says. It says that there is also Oral Tradition that I must follow, so I looked for it, and I found it. Doctrine and Dogma that has not changed for 2000 years, only expounded upon and explained.

My friend, you are not entirely wrong. I am not always entirely right. But I have been in MANY protestant and Non-Christian religions searching for truth. The RCC is the last stop for me. If I can’t find it here, I am truly going to be lost to ANY faith. And I can’t and wont live with that. It disturbs my soul to have conversations like this. If God wanted me to be able to know the truth, then he would help me to know it. God would know my limits. And I am at them. So far, I have found MORE truth in the RCC than ANY other. It is that simple. I seek Truth. And Truth must be proven to a certain extent before I can accept it as such. The rest I will leave to faith. I have faith that God exists. I have faith that he sent his only son to die for us. I have faith that what I have been feeling is God’s call. I wish to serve Him in every way I can. But if I can’t know how I am to serve him, I am afraid that I could no longer exist. Life would be meaningless to me. The RCC is the ONLY entity that has shown me through the Scriptures that it has what is necessary for me to do so. Your protestant faiths gloss over most of the Bible, and you pick and choose what to use, and even in your own congregations hold to VAST differences of interpretation, and think it is just fine. I can’t possible do that.

Sorry if I sound suicidal… I am not. But I am in MUCH distress over all of this.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You put your understanding and relationship to Jesus in the hands of men that claim to be the only repository of the truth and life of Jesus. The very same thing as this passage, the catholic church is the same as the church in Jesus day.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

What is the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees claiming Abraham and the catholic church claiming Peter?
You both claim authority by line of succession.

(Edited) The immediate obvious difference to even the most casual of observers or critics is that the Pharisees approached baptism to save their own bacon without accepting Jesus. The Catholic Church HAS ALWAYS accepted Jesus for 2,000 years and Baptizes in His Name!!!

(Edited)

And you might want to go back and re-read the passage about the temple shroud being torn in two and review the history of the Jewish temple that was destroyed a few decades after Christ - just as He predicted. Take that with the fact that the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years since and Jesus prophesy that “the gates of hell would not prevail against His church” and it becomes clear that Catholic apostolic succession is valid (along with Orthodox who share the same faith). Explain how the 32,000 neo-Christian Protestants denominations in their young 500 year old history is apostolic? How do you account for the gaps in succession and the lack of unity?

(Edited)

James

 

[Axion]

In fact the closest people to the Pharisees today are many anti-Catholics.

The Pharisees took the written scriptures and took each verse separately, interpreting it to their own particular convenience. They then enforced their interpretation rigorously while forgetting the meaning behind the whole of the law. Many modern evangelicals do the same. They hunt through scripture for proof texts and then rest their whole attitude on their interpretations of these hand-picked verses.

However what many Sola Scripturalists forget is that the New Covenant is not based on a book of Laws, it is based on a living Church. Perhaos that is why Jesus handed down no new book of laws, and the New testament was not codified until 382AD.

 

[gopwop]

Hello all,

I found this thread while researching the Hail Holy Queen prayer for a fellow Catholic who has understandably been concerned about the line “our life, our sweetness, and our hope” without understanding why we use these words. I found a couple other sources, but this forum has provided the most interesting thoughts. I sat and read nearly the first 10 pages straight through, skimming the last couple pages, and don’t have any time to go through the rest today. I put together a list for my friend of different thoughts and reasons behind the prayer. I just copied and pasted thoughts I found and did not cite the author’s username since it is just for his personal benefit. I added and expanded with my own thoughts here and there. I figured I would go ahead and register so I could post the list here to share and get thoughts. My aim is to have a concise list of thoughts pertaining just to the OP. Thank you all for the fascinating conversation, and CentralFLJames, you are now one of my heros. Way to go. Your words definitely seem to be anointed. I hope you don’t mind, I quoted you quite a bit.

---

I have read a couple times that the best source is the book “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus Liguori, which I am planning on ordering for a more in depth study in what sounds like an anointed book. Apparently, it goes through the prayer line by line.

I found a few online forums where people have been discussing the subject, and some of the explanations that I came across are:

1. One explanation is the words “Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope” actually refer to Jesus, as in “Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy (Jesus) our life our sweetness and our hope.” Jesus is mercy, Mary is the mother of Jesus, thus the mother of mercy who is our life, our sweetness and our hope. In other words, it was put she is the mother of mercy, mother of our life, mother of our sweetness and mother of our hope. However, if you look at the original Latin prayer, it translates closer to “**Hail **Holy Queen, mother of mercy, **hail **our life, our sweetness, and our hope,” so this is unlikely the meaning of the original prayer.
2. Mary being our “life” is meant as tender affection, such as saying to a loved one, “you are my whole world,” or “you are my life.” It can also be in the sense of making “Mary’s way” our life, just as the Franciscans make Saint Francis’ *way *their life and the Dominicans make Saint Dominic’s *way *their life. In a sense they are making St. Francis and St. Dominic their lives. Furthermore, Mary tells us that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). I want to spend my life seeking the Lord as magnified as I can! This is done via Mary.
3. She is our “hope” because of our hopeful requests for her intercessions and because of many promises she has made to us for grace, intercession, etc. (therosarylady.com/fifteen_promises_of_mary_most_ho.htm)
4. She is our “sweetness” in her perfect example of following God’s will and her unique role as a most special intercessor being the Mother of God. She is the sweetest and most beloved of the Saints due to this, her coronation as Queen of Heaven, her preservation from original sin by the Grace of her Son, and the enmity between her and Satan. This can also be similar to calling a spouse “sweetie.”
5. The first commandment says, “Thou shall not have any gods before me.” In no way does referring to Mary as our life, our sweetness, and our hope imply she is God or is a god of any sort. Furthermore, idolatry is the worship of a physical object as god. Mary is simply not a physical object worshiped as a god, so this prayer is not idolatrous, nor does it break the first commandment. One user writes: “All of Mary’s titles originate in relationship to her Son. All the honor, NOT WORSHIP, that we give to her, we give to her in view of the fact that she is the Mother of Jesus! … All of her titles can only be properly understood if you really have a true appreciation for the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and for the Woman, who by her consent, cooperated fully with God in the Incarnation! God bless you! To Jesus, through Mary!”
6. Another user writes “Recently, I heard a priest talking about how some songs don’t get approved for use in Catholic weddings because they have lyrics in them that say stuff like ‘You are my everything’ or ‘You are my life.’ He said they won’t use these songs because Jesus is supposed to be our everything and our life, etc. So, that gave me the impression that the Church is really picky about word usage and the implications.” Thus, since the prayer is approved by the Church, which is the foundation and pillar of truth, it must obviously mean something appropriate.
7. One of my favorite explanations so far is this one: “Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Mary is our life, our sweetness and our hope. Jesus and Mary share in the Divine Life (Sanctifying Grace), free from original sin. Mary will lead you to her Son.”
8. Mother Teresa’s summary of Marian devotion is: “Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary.” Mary was no doubt Jesus’ life, sweetness and hope, as thus we imitate Christ.
9. Jesus gave Mary to us as our Mother while he was on the cross! “Behold, your mother!” I would certainly make Mary my life, my sweetness and my hope, as I’m sure John did at that point and from then on! Similarly, as a child, our parents (and usually particularly our mothers) are our life, our sweetness and our hope. We imitate Christ following the commandment “honor thy father and mother” with child-like innocence that Mary is our mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

[continued]

 

[gopwop]

[continued from above]

1. “The opening line “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy” is simultaneously emulating the Angel Gabriel’s lead in “Hail full of Grace” by acknowledging Mary in a SUBORDINATE role as Queen and Mother. The very fact that she is titled “Queen” states that she is under the King. The very fact that she is addressed as “Mother” acknowledges that she was subordinate to the Father who made her a mother by implanting His seed into her (traditionally a position that required the woman to be submissive and cooperative with Her husband). The term “Mother of Mercy” taken together as it is in upper case conveys a honorary title and “Mercy” is clearly her offspring that is highly valued - Jesus as Merciful God (which is also factual). Clearly it is the fact that Mary births the object of “Mercy” that she is revered - not that she is Mercy. The focus is on her accomplishment worked through her cooperative trust in God rather than on her personally. It will become apparent at the end of the prayer that a greater thing came out of a lessor thing. That is not worship of the lessor that is simply empathizing with the profoundness that each of us can produce a greater thing and be likewise honored and blessed if we emulate Mary’s example.That is an analysis of the lead-in opening and salutation. Now look at the middle of the prayer. “Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;” Clearly the role here is ADVOCATE. This term GUARANTEES a subordinate relationship to a higher authority since that is the role of an advocate - it is an arbitor to a Judge - who is clearly God. Those who say this prayer thus far have acknowledged that there is a Judge (God) who is feared and respected for His absolute authority over them. Clearly, the fear and awe is there or they would not be petitioning and advocate for her influence. The expression “eyes of mercy” conveys the belief that a mother who can birth “Mercy” also has the attributes of mercy that her offspring (that is Jesus as Mercy) has. The prayer is thus acknowledging that mother and offspring share in common an attribute of mercy since a child will have the eyes of its parents - and the parents certainly saw eye to eye in order to have a licit union that resulted in pregnancy to start with.” (Continued here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4851597&postcount=86)
2. “This prayer called the Salve Regina was originally written in Latin and the Latin words were selected for poetic and tonal effect to meet certain musical chant modes and meter cadences. That is, this prayer and original Latin words was composed in part for their melodic effect, phrasing and intonation as much as for the devotional message. It loses quite a bit of that original expressive dimensionality and depth in the modern English translation. It may be interesting to note that some early sentimental Protestants (Lutherans) were unwilling that it should disappear from Lutheran churches. These reconstructed it “evangelically” (e.g., a version in use at Erfurt in 1525: “Salve Rex aeternae misericordiae”.) to preserve it since early Protestants, being Catholic in origin revered Mary and insisted on keeping with the beloved Catholic Marian chant that was often played in the bell towers all around the Christian world. This continued up till various Protestant mobs, rabid with fear of Catholic influence and incited by the rhetoric of the reformers, take it upon themselves to destroy all Catholic art forms and statues of Mary and the saints. In no time they purge all Catholic saintly devotional prayers from their liturgies and prayer/hymn books and centuries of priceless art-forms are eviscerated from Protestant Churches (which were taken over and annexed from Catholics). The language in the Salvae Regina is in the “devotional style” and is not dogmatic Catholic teaching. Thus Catholics can place their hope in Mary as intercessor just as much as we can place our hope in each other for their prayers and intentions in our times of need without worry that we are deprecating or subordinating our hope in Jesus as savior. It was Jesus after all who gave His Mother to all Christians at the foot of the cross. Do you consider it an affront to God to “hope” that Mary will pray for you when you are ill or most in need of prayer and assistance? I don’t think God would find any reason to be confused by our affections for the mother of Jesus nor let it become a vain hope to presume that the “mother of God” will not gladly join her efficacious prayers to ours in our time of critical need and in particular at our hour of death.”
3. A Catholic user delves into the meaning and semantics of the word worship: “Do you think you worship God by prayer and hymn? To Catholics this falls way short of true worship as much as Cain’s fell short of true worship and Abel’s was acceptable. One can not offer up to God blemished sacrifice and also please God. There is only one sacrifice fully acceptable to God and that is the remembrance of the one pure sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross (The Mass). This is true perfect worship that Catholics do every day 24/7 East-to-West before God. This is called “latria” worship - perfect worship. So what you call worship and what Catholics call worship are worlds apart. What honors we bestow to Mary are only a form of “worship” (prayer) called hyperdulia - prayer from a sincere heart that is in a state of repentant and sanctifying grace. Compare this to your form worship and you see that you only achieve what we Catholics call mere dulia forms of worship (since without sacramental confession you lack the ability to stay sanctified in high grace). Bottom Line Catholics give God true worship in the mass and venerate Mary in prayer. Nothing on this planet can exceed the worship of the Catholic Mass (and Orthodox) since it gives to God the one thing that pleases Him above all others. Non-Catholics lacking the true sacrifice of the mass or a valid apostolic priesthood can only venerate God. Can there be any reason as to why you have such contempt for Catholic veneration of Mary when it exceeds what you can do for worship of God? Could it be you are just as Jealous as Cain was of Abel?” (Read more about latria/hyperdulia/dulia/etc. by Pope Pius XIII here: truecarpentry.org/tccwww/cathwww/pope/honor.htm and some more discussion here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=321208)
4. In defense, another user writes, “Worship towards God is that I believe He is God. No Catholic believes Mary is God, but His humble servant as we all should be. If you can demonstrate that the prayer believes she is a god, than you are correct. But the prayer does not do that. It is from the middle ages when such eloquent language was commonly used. You must demonstrate that the people who wrote it intended worship in today’s understanding of it.”

[continued]

 

[gopwop]

[continued from above]

1. A protestant asks “If I am the the source of a good meal would you call my mother a chef?” to which a Catholic replies: “your example almost makes sense, if you said Jesus was the chef and Mary is the handmaid who serves the food. Jesus, the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve, work together; this is Christ’s will. I like how one saint said: Is it not fitting that grace should return to its Author by the same channel that conveyed it to us? ~ St. Bernard” Another points out in response to this, “We don’t call Mary God because she mothered him, now do we?! That would be ridiculous. If you were the source of a really good meal, we might give you praise by telling your mother what a great child she raised, and how well you can cook. She then shares in your praise. The honor is also hers to receive because she raised you and taught you.”
2. There is an early Church prayer to Mary from 250 AD, before the Bible was canonized, called Sub Tuum Praesidium which goes, “Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one.”
3. A priest writes: “Referring to Mary as our life, our sweetness and our hope is an example of hyperbole. Hyperbole is defined as an “obvious and intentional exaggeration” or “an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as ‘to wait an eternity.’” We honor her with such extravagance because the greater honor the Father bestowed on her by calling her to be the channel through which His Son would become man. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us.”
4. Scripture references at: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-III
5. The Divine Office offers the following hymn (below) as an alternative to the Latin and gives more insight into the intention of the original hymn.
   
   Hail, our Queen and Mother blest!
   Joy when all was sadness, * (hope)
   * Life and hope you gave mankind,
   * Mother of our gladness! * (sweetness)
   Children of the sinful Eve,
   Sinless Eve, befriend us,
   Exiled in this vale of tears:
   Strength and comfort send us!
   
   Pray for us, O Patroness,
   Be our consolation!
   Lead us home to see your Son,
   Jesus, our salvation!
   Gracious are you, full of grace,
   Loving as none other,
   Joy of heaven and joy of earth,
   Mary, God’s own Mother!
   
   Catholic missals generally list two or three verses of a musical version similar to the following:
   
   Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
   Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
   Triumph all ye cherubim!
   Sing with us ye seraphim!
   Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
   Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
   
   Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
   Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
   Triumph all ye cherubim!
   Sing with us ye seraphim!
   Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
   Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
   
   And when our last breath leaves us, O Maria!
   Show us thy son Christ Jesus, O Maria!
   Triumph all ye cherubim!
   Sing with us ye seraphim!
   Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
   Salve, salve, salve, Regina!
   
   Mary is our life, sweetness and hope because she shows us her Son!
6. And finally “The safer bet is to become Catholic and if that prayer makes you uncomfortable - don’t say it. You are looking at the small stuff and missing the bigger thing.”
7. Here’s some background & history on the prayer itself: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salve_Regina#Background_and_history

 

[kobudodave]

Very nice list you put together there… I may use it for a reference point when people ask me the same question, or raise a concern… You did good by consolidating all of our thoughts into one list (albeit several posts).

 

[Canto]

Ah Sister Act, what a heretical film, bunch of nuns worshiping our Lady in song

In the Salve Regina, we honour Mary and thus Jesus.

Jesus is our life, sweetness and hope born of whom? - MARY!

We ask her to interceede - St Paul says that’s fine 1 Tim 2:1+

We send up our prayers - In Rev 8:3 an Angel offers up the prayers of saints before the throne of God

We ask her to show unto us Jesus, her son - can’t see anything wrong with that.

And we use some adjectives like clement, loving and sweet to describe her- a way of calling her blessed - Luke 1:48

 

[The_Catholic]

She is not the Mother of all things. She is a human that gave birth to the Lord. The Lord is God. She is his servant. We are to worship God, not his servants.

Rev 19:10
[10] Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This is the reason I left Protestantism. The fallen brethern system in terms of Faith is so ‘illogical,’ and (no offense) extremely childish.

Catholics do not worship Mary, the approved Marian prayers of the Church are wonderful, beautiful, poetic prayers which flow to our Lord Christ.

Protestants I was around were even hesitant to thank another for giving them food or a gift. Why thank the human when it actually comes from God? We don’t worship humans, we worship God, so we thank Him, as opposed to those who gave us the food, shelter, etc.----This is flat out evil and ridiculous, childish.

I know not all Protestants are like this, but many are, and carry further man-made “ideas” proclaiming them to be of God when they in fact are not.

The Catholic Church—Orthodox Christianity is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Covanent, not 20,000 plus denominations fifteen hundred years later.

Please, investigate the Church, come home to Her.