Hail Holy Queen

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maurin said:
Excuse me, Eileen T,

but I am the OP. Do you think that my understanding of Our Blessed MOther is lacking?
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Ooops! Mea Culpa, I wasn’t meaning you, don’t know where my head was with that post.😊
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
Wow, this post really helps me understand where you are coming from. Thanks! Catholics believe that the Old Testament is also God’s inspired Word. Much of what Catholics believe about Mary is contained within the Old Testament in the form of “types”. This includes the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s Queenship (like Soloman’s Queen Mother) and Assumption. It is clear that you don’t agree with the Church’s interpretation of OT scripture and that is your business. But don’t think that there is no scriptural basis for Catholic dogma regarding Mary. It is just not all found in the NT.
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Do any of the writers of the OT make any such connection as the catholic church does about the mother the messiah?

Did any of the NT writers ever make these connections about Mary from the OT?
 
Tomster said:
One of the glories of Mary is that she reigns in heaven, Queen of angels and of men. Her sovereignty is founded on her Divine Maternity and her unique part in our redemption, as Pope Pius XII says: “As Christ, the new Adam, must be called King not merely because He is the Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin Mary is Queen not only because she is the Mother of God, but also because, as the New Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.” The constant belief of the Church in Mary’s sovereignty is manifest in the glorious mysteries of the rosary and was crowned with new recognition on November 1, 1954, when Pius XII instituted the litugical feast of the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

On account of her utterly singular position, her matchless dignity, and the part she played in the salvation of men, Mary is accorded religious honor. That honor, however, is essentially less than the adoration paid to God but of a higher type than the honor given to any angel or holy man. Some heretics accuse the Church of giving Mary divine honor and refusae to credit her when she says that she carefully distinguishes between the worship due to God and the honor paid to Mary. Be it so. But it is a sure sign of orthodoxy to know by instinct the right thing to say of Mary, just as it is characteristic of heresy to fear Mary and be unwilling to render her what God expects she should have.
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Now go back to the scriptures and see if you find any reference to Mary being Queen, the new Eve. After that, look for any refences about any religious honor being given her. If you have never done this, it should suprise you what you will not find.
 
maurin said:
Gen 3: 15:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Douay Reims)

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel. (NAB)
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Not so. Read this passage in Gen carefully and you will see no reference to Mary.
 
justasking4 said:
Do any of the writers of the OT make any such connection as the catholic church does about the mother the messiah?
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Did they KNOW they were making a connection between Mary and the Messiah? I doubt it. But when they made prophecies about the Messiah, there’s nothing telling us that they know anything about the Messiah, other than what they were told by the Lord to say.

For instance, the Jews thought that Isaiah’s prophecy in 7:14 (… "Behold the young maiden shall conceive a child, and you shall call him Immanuel…) was fulfilled in the birth to Hezekiah of Ahaz. NOWHERE in Isaiah does the inspired author tell the Jews, “No, you idiots, this prophecy is not fulfilled today, but somewhere in the future”.
Did any of the NT writers ever make these connections about Mary from the OT?
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As numerous posters have showed you, it seems that the author of John’s Gospel and Revelation clearly saw the connection between Mary and Jesus.

Let me ask you something, JA4. Do you see the Genesis theme throughout the first 2 or 3 chapters of John’s Gospel. No accusation, just a simple question. Do you read into his Gospel where John is “re-doing” the Creation Account of Genesis?
 
justasking4 said:
Not so. Read this passage in Gen carefully and you will see no reference to Mary.
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As has been pointed out to you numerous times, as early as the 2nd century, the Church Fathers read this passage to pre-figure Mary and Jesus.
 
NotWorthy said:
Did they KNOW they were making a connection between Mary and the Messiah? I doubt it. But when they made prophecies about the Messiah, there’s nothing telling us that they know anything about the Messiah, other than what they were told by the Lord to say.

For instance, the Jews thought that Isaiah’s prophecy in 7:14 (… "Behold the young maiden shall conceive a child, and you shall call him Immanuel…) was fulfilled in the birth to Hezekiah of Ahaz. NOWHERE in Isaiah does the inspired author tell the Jews, “No, you idiots, this prophecy is not fulfilled today, but somewhere in the future”.

As numerous posters have showed you, it seems that the author of John’s Gospel and Revelation clearly saw the connection between Mary and Jesus.

Let me ask you something, JA4. Do you see the Genesis theme throughout the first 2 or 3 chapters of John’s Gospel. No accusation, just a simple question. Do you read into his Gospel where John is “re-doing” the Creation Account of Genesis?
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No doubt John is aware of Genesis expecially in chapter 1:1-5 for example. In regards to the connection between Jesus and Mary i don’t agree with how catholics try to make it. They go far beyond what the scriptures teach.
 
justasking4 said:
No doubt John is aware of Genesis expecially in chapter 1:1-5 for example. In regards to the connection between Jesus and Mary i don’t agree with how catholics try to make it. They go far beyond what the scriptures teach.
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Just in chapter 1:1-5? What about the 7 days of “re-creation”? The wedding on the 7th day? The scene culminating in the use of the phrase “woman”?

How about Revelation? Genesis, the first book of the OT, begins with a struggle between Adam, Eve, and Satan.

Revelation, the last book of the NT culminates in a struggle between Jesus (the 2nd Adam), a “woman”, and Satan. Hmmmm, this same phrase, “woman”, as John used in describing Mary in his “mini Genesis”.

The phrase, “woman”, is used in John’s Gospel when Jesus gives John, the most loyal disciple of Jesus, to be the son of Mary.

The phrase, “woman”, is used in Revelation to describe all the Children of the woman, those who are disciples of Jesus.

The Catholic Church has long seen this link that is staring at you right in the face.
 
justasking4 said:
Not so. Read this passage in Gen carefully and you will see no reference to Mary.
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a horribly myopic vision of the Proto-Gospel, with absolutely nothing of substance with which to back it up.

What a surprise.
 
Yeah scripture just says all genearations will call blessed…

What was she thinking?

Chuck
justasking4 said:
Here are a few quotes that i find extremely troubling:
19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]
  1. She is called by St. John Damascene: “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]
  2. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]
  3. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all.
What is troubling is that the Scriptures never speak of her like this.
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NotWorthy said:
Just in chapter 1:1-5? What about the 7 days of “re-creation”? The wedding on the 7th day? The scene culminating in the use of the phrase “woman”?

How about Revelation? Genesis, the first book of the OT, begins with a struggle between Adam, Eve, and Satan.

Revelation, the last book of the NT culminates in a struggle between Jesus (the 2nd Adam), a “woman”, and Satan. Hmmmm, this same phrase, “woman”, as John used in describing Mary in his “mini Genesis”.

The phrase, “woman”, is used in John’s Gospel when Jesus gives John, the most loyal disciple of Jesus, to be the son of Mary.

The phrase, “woman”, is used in Revelation to describe all the Children of the woman, those who are disciples of Jesus.

The Catholic Church has long seen this link that is staring at you right in the face.
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Interesting. How is it that no writer of the NT comes out with the doctrines on Mary that the catholic church. I guess they to missed what the catholic church see also.
 
maurin said:
a horribly myopic vision of the Proto-Gospel, with absolutely nothing of substance with which to back it up.

What a surprise.
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I must be in good company becasue Jesus and His apostles didn’t see any of this vision either.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
But you do see a “seed” from Eve who will crush Satan’s head. Who will crush Satan’s head. Jesus.
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Before i answer this i think its important to understand what it means to “crush” Satan head. What does this mean? Where does it take place?
 
justasking4 said:
Interesting. How is it that no writer of the NT comes out with the doctrines on Mary that the catholic church. I guess they to missed what the catholic church see also.
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Interesting. How is it that I show you where the NT writers saw it, and the Church realized it, and you ask that “they missed it”.

How can I trust your “Biblical Interpretation” when you can’t interpret what I just clearly showed you?
 
Tim Kirchoff;2754764]That’s probably because Mary would never have allowed anyone to talk about her that way when she was still on Earth:p
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Why do you think she would have been troubled by it?
Those references sound more peotic than theological.
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Even if they are poetic that still must reflect the truth.
Pope JPII had a particular Marian devotion- In case you never heard, he placed the bulllet that almost killed him in the crown of a statue of Mary, crediting his survival to her intercession.
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i have read about this also. Does it trouble you that credits this to Mary and not Christ?
 
justasking4 said:
Do you think she thought of herself as queen of heaven or that men will be praying to her?
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Do you think that she had no idea what was going to happen in 33 years, just as the prophets didn’t in the OT?
 
NotWorthy;2769908]Interesting. How is it that I show you where the NT writers saw it, and the Church realized it, and you ask that “they missed it”.
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i must be dense. Where do the apostle see that Mary was the queen of heaven? Where does Paul or Peter mention this?
How can I trust your “Biblical Interpretation” when you can’t interpret what I just clearly showed you?
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There are limitations with this kind of dialogue. i don’t know your thoughts behind what you or anyone writes but must as best i can take what is written here at face value. Even with this, its still possible to misunderstand. Would you agree?
 
justasking4 said:
Before i answer this i think its important to understand what it means to “crush” Satan head. What does this mean? Where does it take place?
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To defeat someone. This took place on the Cross and His Resurrection.

“To strike someone’s heel” means to wound but not defeat.
 
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