Hail Holy Queen

[LilyM]

i must be dense. Where do the apostle see that Mary was the queen of heaven? Where does Paul or Peter mention this?

JOHN - he’s an Apostle too remember - LITERALLY saw it.

Revelations 12 - crowned woman (Queen) who gives birth to Jesus, the King of Heaven. Clearly means Mary, crowned as Queen of Heaven, among other things. And yes you must be.

There are limitations with this kind of dialogue. i don’t know your thoughts behind what you or anyone writes but must as best i can take what is written here at face value. Even with this, its still possible to misunderstand. Would you agree?

This would seem to be more than misunderstanding on your part though. It seems to be willfull blindness - with the number of Marian threads you have been part of you surely understand better than you’re letting on here, even if you don’t necessarily agree with all of it.

 

[justasking4]

Do you think that she had no idea what was going to happen in 33 years, just as the prophets didn’t in the OT?

She knew there were going to be problems because it was foretold to her in Luke 2:34-35

 

[justasking4]

JOHN - he’s an Apostle too remember - LITERALLY saw it.

Revelations 12 - crowned woman (Queen) who gives birth to Jesus, the King of Heaven. Clearly means Mary, crowned as Queen of Heaven, among other things. And yes you must be.

This would seem to be more than misunderstanding on your part though. It seems to be willfull blindness - with the number of Marian threads you have been part of you surely understand better than you’re letting on here, even if you don’t necessarily agree with all of it.

i understand the marian doctrines quite well. i was referring to the method of this form of communication (written)

 

[maurin]

I must be in good company becasue Jesus and His apostles didn’t see any of this vision either.

I see how busy your fingers have been. Unfortunately you have provided no proof for your insults to Our Lord and His Mother.

Why not offer some proof?

 

[maurin]

i understand the marian doctrines quite well.

obviously you do not. if you did you would have no problems with Marian devotion.

But you clearly understand how to make baseless statements with no proof to back them up.

Saying something certainly does not make it so. Neither does repeating it ad nauseum. However, your doing so does prove your utter lack of comprehension of the issues you are attempting to discuss.

How nice it would be if you really were just asking, instead of just denigrating.

 

[guanophore]

Why would you pray such a prayer like this if the scriptures never attribute such characteristics to her?

We know more about her than what is found in the scriptures because we have not cut off the Apostolic Teachings that come to us through the Sacred Oral Tradition.

 

[guanophore]

How about this from the first part of the prayer-hymn:
Hail Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail Queen of Heaven and of Love, O Maria!

Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and Earth resound the Hymn

If you read all that the New Testament says about Mary, you will never find this kind of thing being said about her. Keep in mind that it is only in the NT that we know of her. These are the only facts we have about her and none of those facts ever make or say such a thing about her like this prayer-hymn claims.

This is where your abandoment of the Apostlic Teaching limits your understanding, justasking4. The Apostles and Jesus taught us that the New Covenant is hidden in the Old, and that the NT reveals the types that have been given previously to us for an example. We know much more about Mary because we understand the role of the mother of the King in .the Davidic dynasty.

You are just short of facts on account of having shortened your perspective.

 

[NotWorthy]

She knew there were going to be problems because it was foretold to her in Luke 2:34-35

And as you’ve often brought up, that was all that was said. According to your exegesis, she couldn’t have known what all would happen because this was the only thing that the angel said to Mary.

 

[guanophore]

Here are a few quotes that i find extremely troubling:
19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]

All we know about Mary is derived from who Jesus is. Do you not believe that Jesus is king over all? Is He not enthroned and exalted in the heavens? If you look at the type of the queen mother in the Scriptures about how Solomon treats his mother, then you will understand a little better why the King’s mother is treated with such respect.

1. She is called by St. John Damascene: “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]

Again you must understand the Davidic Kingdom structure. when the King was absent, the queen mother ruled in his stead. Of course you will never understand this concept if you limit yourself to the NT, or you don’t accept that Jesus is the Son of David.

1. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]

Do you not think that Jesus has elevated Mary above all other women, by choosing her to bring Him into the world, and to be His mother? What more exalted role is there for a woman?

1. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all.

What is troubling is that the Scriptures never speak of her like this.

this last quote is a reference to the Sacred Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles. Jesus has exalted her, and all generations call her blessed. Why does this bother you so much? Do you have mother issues?

 

[guanophore]

Interesting. How is it that no writer of the NT comes out with the doctrines on Mary that the catholic church. I guess they to missed what the catholic church see also.

Well, Mary was still alive at the time, so it is not logical that they would write about her Assumption, for one thing. It may be for the same reasons that none of them wrote about the hypostatic union, the contents of the canon, and the Trinity. Some things took time to understand.

The NT writers were Catholic, and wrote Catholic teaching in the NT. They did not “miss” what the Church sees. The NT IS the representation of the Catholic teaching. There is no distinction between the two.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think she thought of herself as queen of heaven or that men will be praying to her?

No, I really do not. Even though she knew her Divine Son was King, and that he was the Son of David, and even as she stood beneath His cross that read “The King of the Jews”, I think she was a humble Jewish maid till he end. I imagine that many went to her for prayer and intercession while she lived with John, and that she taught the women and the children about her Divine Son. But I think she would NEVER put on such airs!

I must be in good company becasue Jesus and His apostles didn’t see any of this vision either.

justasking4, WHAT WILL IT TAKE to get you to understand that what you are reading in your NT is only a small part? If you will not listen to the NT itself on this point, what else IS there?!

25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21:25

Don’t you realize how ignorant it makes you sound when you say things like this? Who are you, to know what Jesus and His apostles envisioned?! If the world itself cannot contain the books, then doesn’t that tell you there is a LOT MORE?!

Jesus was a perfect Jew. He followed all the commandments of God without fail. He knows how to honor his parents better than any of us.

 

[guanophore]

i must be dense.

It is ok! We accept you just the way you are.

 

[PC_Master]

There’s a far more simple question to be asked here…

If God is king of heaven, and Mary is queen of heaven, then doesn’t that place Mary on a sort of deity level? Sounds like an incorporation from Mithraism and Tammuz worship to me.

 

[maurin]

There’s a far more simple question to be asked here…

If God is king of heaven, and Mary is queen of heaven, then doesn’t that place Mary on a sort of deity level? Sounds like an incorporation from Mithraism and Tammuz worship to me.

It may sound like that to you, and it might seem to you that Mary is placed on the same level as God, but it doesn’t seem that way to either St. John, 2000 years of Christians, or to us.

“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

 

[porthos11]

There’s a far more simple question to be asked here…

If God is king of heaven, and Mary is queen of heaven, then doesn’t that place Mary on a sort of deity level? Sounds like an incorporation from Mithraism and Tammuz worship to me.

Nope.

If Jesus is King, then by definition, his mother is Queen Mother. Does that make her a deity? No, absolutely not. It just makes her Queen. But then, since when was Queen=Goddess anyway?

 

[NotWorthy]

If God is king of heaven, and Mary is queen of heaven, then doesn’t that place Mary on a sort of deity level? Sounds like an incorporation from Mithraism and Tammuz worship to me.

Wow, to me it sounds very Scriptural, for this is exactly the way Israel/Judah worked throughout the kingdom from David til the Babylonian Exile.

The inspired authors certainly spent a lot of time listing the kings with their queen mothers. Why do you think that was?

 

[HailMary]

Why would you pray such a prayer like this if the scriptures never attribute such characteristics to her?

The Church, the Spouse of Christ, attributes such attributes to Her.

Why do you attribute such characteristics to the scriptures since they (the scriptures) don’t attribute such characteristics to themselves?

Sola Scriptura is FALSE.

We read IN SCRIPTURE, that the Church is the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH: thats a VERY bold statement
1 Tim 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Sola Scriptura: DESTROYED

 

[HailMary]

There’s a far more simple question to be asked here…

If God is king of heaven, and Mary is queen of heaven, then doesn’t that place Mary on a sort of deity level? Sounds like an incorporation from Mithraism and Tammuz worship to me.

Mary is the Queen by GRACE and Jesus is a King by nature.

You need to make that distinction.

 

[PC_Master]

“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

And the next verse apparently reads, “And I recognized that she was Mary, the queen of heaven.” Or perhaps not.

Mary is the Queen by GRACE and Jesus is a King by nature.

You need to make that distinction.

I see, so she’s only co-ruler of the universe by grace? What’s the point you’re making here? It still places her above the level of a human being.

 

[NotWorthy]

And the next verse apparently reads, “And I recognized that she was Mary, the queen of heaven.” Or perhaps not.

Perhaps that’s why Jesus said, “I and the Father are one, and the Holy Spirit makes Us the Trinity”. Or perhaps not.

What is your point, again?

I see, so she’s only co-ruler of the universe by grace? What’s the point you’re making here? It still places her above the level of a human being.

Why yes, she and all the other saints are above the level of a human being, as well as the angels.

What is your point, again?