Hail Holy Queen

[porthos11]

** Why yes, she and all the other saints are above the level of a human being, as well as the angels.
**
What is your point, again?

Careful, this can be misconstrued. Mary’s queenship does not change her nature; she is NOT above the level of a human being. She was human and will always be only human. Glorified, yes, but only still human. The angels share a completely different nature.

If you mean to say that she is now freed from the limits of the present world, then that is correct; i.e. above the level of the earthly life. But NOT above the level of a human being. We, too will be glorified one day, but we will all retain our natures as men.

 

[PC_Master]

Perhaps that’s why Jesus said, “I and the Father are one, and the Holy Spirit makes Us the Trinity”. Or perhaps not.

Not quite that explicitly – but it’s certainly way closer to that than scripture is to calling the woman in Revelation by the name Mary, much less identifying her as the mother of Christ.

Why yes, she and all the other saints are above the level of a human being, as well as the angels.

Noted. Somehow I doubt most Roman Catholics will openly agree with you on this point.

 

[NotWorthy]

Careful, this can be misconstrued. Mary’s queenship does not change her nature; she is NOT above the level of a human being. She was human and will always be only human. Glorified, yes, but only still human. The angels share a completely different nature.

If you mean to say that she is now freed from the limits of the present world, then that is correct; i.e. above the level of the earthly life. But NOT above the level of a human being. We, too will be glorified one day, but we will all retain our natures as men.

By human being, I meant those of us still struggling here on earth. As I said, Mary and all the saints of Heaven are far beyond us in our present state (is that better? ) as well as the angels.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not quite that explicitly – but it’s certainly way closer to that than scripture is to calling the woman in Revelation by the name Mary, much less identifying her as the mother of Christ.

So you admit that some things are implicit in the Bible? That’s a start!!! How about telling JA4 about that? double -

How can you deny that the woman is Mary?

1. Isn’t the child, to rule with a rod of iron, Jesus?
2. Notice the dragon is red. Esau, translates to red. Esau’s tribe settled in Edom, where Herod was King. The dragon represents Herod as well as Satan.
3. The child was caught up to heaven, just as Jesus was.
4. Notice John calls her, “Woman”. Did John call Mary “Woman” throughout his Gospel?

I wouldn’t say this verse implicitly says it’s Mary. I’d say it literally screams it out.

Noted. Somehow I doubt most Roman Catholics will openly agree with you on this point.

I think I clarified this in my last post. Thanks for asking for the clarification. Does it suffice?

 

[LilyM]

And the next verse apparently reads, “And I recognized that she was Mary, the queen of heaven.” Or perhaps not.

The next verse shows her literally giving birth to Jesus - y’know, the one who crushes the serpent and rules all nations with an iron rod? It fairly screams ‘the crowned woman is Mary’. If crowned, then Queen. Queen of what? Obviously of her Son’s kingdom - the kingdom of Heaven.

I see, so she’s only co-ruler of the universe by grace? What’s the point you’re making here? It still places her above the level of a human being.

No - it merely makes her the greatest and most perfect human being ever after Christ Himself (who had a little more help being God and all).

She’s what we all could be if we co-operated with God’s grace as well as she did. But we don’t, so we won’t be

 

[maurin]

Our prayer for those whose hearts are hardened to Our Blessed Mother’s Role in Christendom:

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled said: I thirst. Jn 19:26-28.

May all become like the disciple whom Jesus loved, and take His Mother as their own.

Hail Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail Queen of Heaven and of Love, O Maria!

Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and Earth resound the Hymn
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina!

To thee we cry, poor sons of Eve, O Maria!
To thee we sigh, we mourn, we grieve, O Maria!
Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!

Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and Earth resound the Hymn
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina!

Oh gentle Loving Holy One, O Maria!
The God of Light became your Son, O Maria!
The cause of joy to us below, O Maria!
The Spring through which all graces flow, O Maria!

Angels, all your praises bring,
Earth and Heaven, with us sing,
All Creation echoing
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina!

O Mother of God, O Mother of God, O Mary!

So as to not lose sight of our Life, our Sweetness and our Hope.

 

[JoeyWarren]

i understand the marian doctrines quite well. i was referring to the method of this form of communication (written)

Will you please respond to this thread?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2776136#post2776136

 

[NonDenom]

How about this from the first part of the prayer-hymn:

Hail Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail Queen of Heaven and of Love, O Maria!

justasking4, there is one thing you must remember, satan does not want us to focus our attention on Christ but rather anything but Him, even if it’s His Mother. I truly believe that if Mary were here today she would tell Catholics to stop saying Prayers to her or the Saints and focus on Jesus. I love Mary and think that Her obedience to God was a great example to us all.

 

[guanophore]

Or perhaps not.

Do you think no one is in heaven? How is being in heaven with Jesus the same as being a deity? I think you just don’t undestand God’s plan for our lives.

Luke 22:28-30

28 "You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 4:3-4
4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.

Do you think the eldes are NOT people? Do you think they arrive to this honored state some OTHER way, besides grace?

To whom is the privilege of judgement committed?

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed.Rev 20:4

3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life! 1 Cor 6:3-4

I see, so she’s only co-ruler of the universe by grace? What’s the point you’re making here? It still places her above the level of a human being.

Clearly you don’t understand the notion of authority, either.

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.Rom 13:1-2

All authority is from God, whether secular, or spiritual.

Luke 9:1
9:1 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,

Do you believe that Jesus made the Apostles into divinities, because He gave them authority?

Not quite that explicitly – but it’s certainly way closer to that than scripture is to calling the woman in Revelation by the name Mary, much less identifying her as the mother of Christ.

Do you mean to say that you do not believe Mary is the Mother of Christ!

 

[NotWorthy]

justasking4, there is one thing you must remember, satan does not want us to focus our attention on Christ but rather anything but Him, even if it’s His Mother. I truly believe that if Mary were here today she would tell Catholics to stop saying Prayers to her or the Saints and focus on Jesus. I love Mary and think that Her obedience to God was a great example to us all.

Yeah, that’s good. I would imagine Satan would be tickled pink with all the off-shoots from the Church Christ created, too. Good job there, ND.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Why yes, she and all the other saints are above the level of a human being, as well as the angels.

What is your point, again?

NotWorthy, I want to disagree with you here in order to make the point which others don’t seem to be getting.

Because of the event of the Incarnation, Mary has a particularly special relationship with the Son. We are all called to have this special relationship, but it is Mary who was first to have it.

What does that mean? Just this:

Humanity, because of the fall, lost it’s complete human-ness. As St. John of the Cross cautions us, we should not believe, when we are caught up in mystical ecstasies, that we are suddenly becoming angelic. In fact, we are becoming more human. And it is the destiny of humanity, as Paul writes, to judge the angels.

Jesus restored in his own flesh the humanity which we lost. Mary, as a perfect image of creation, fulfilling the purpose of creation (that is, to BRING FORTH ITS LORD!), shares fully (for all time) and uniquely (for the time being) in the restoration Jesus wrought. This is revealed to us through tradition which says that Mary died, was resurrected, and was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. No other saint has experienced the bodily resurrection. She, more than any other, enjoys fully IN HER VERY BEING the completion of the restoration of the universe. She is truly the eighth day of creation.

And as the mystical eighth day of creation, she is an image of the church which is, in turn, the face of the Holy Spirit in the world. That is, just as the Son reveals the Father and the Spirit reveals the Son (for no one can say that Jesus is Lord without the Spirit), the Church (the renewed creation) reveals the Spirit.

So Mary, in herself, as a complete human being, who has this completeness by the grace of her Son who shares that completeness with her, is the most perfect image of the restoration of creation because in her we see the eighth day. Furthermore, the symbolism of the church reveals that creation is meant to be the Bride of God (this is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). As the Bride of God, creation itself is, indeed, meant to be enthroned on high–and the enthronement of the Virgin as Queen of Heaven makes this point. For what is Mary? She is the Child of the Father, Mother of the Son Incarnate, Spouse of the Holy Spirit. And what is creation meant to be, if not all of these things?

I maintain, therefore, that the language the church uses to honor the Blessed Virgin is not some crazy made up wackiness because the church likes virgin mothers. It is the expression of the theology of a church which takes the Incarnation and the teleology of creation very seriously. We say that Mary has been crowned Queen of Heaven–what greater crown can she receive than the Incarnation, whence all the graces she has received flow?

And knowing that what happens to Mary as the realization in Creation of the work of her Son (who is first in all things) is meant for us to receive by grace as well, what greater crown can we hope for? Indeed, if we deny Mary the Queenship, we deny ourselves what God has meant for us by creating us as human because we see in Mary what the Father has planned for us in his Son Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. To deny Mary the Queenship, therefore, is to deny our own humanity (which Mary has fully, the Saints have tasted, and we lack–though day by day, the Spirit restores us).

Mary in her completely restored and undefiled humanity is greater than the angels, as the Eastern church proclaims: “More honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word; true Theotokos we magnify you.” We are called to that high summit as well.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[PC_Master]

Do you think no one is in heaven? How is being in heaven with Jesus the same as being a deity? I think you just don’t undestand God’s plan for our lives.

There’s a difference between being in heaven (for indeed the angels are there), and being “Queen of Heaven”.

Luke 22:28-30

28 "You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

You think too linearly in regards to time and space. Prophecies of heaven almost certainly cannot be seen in a linear agreement with time here on earth.

All authority is from God, whether secular, or spiritual.

That’s right – even pagan Rome, which martyred many Christians, was allowed by God to exist. Likewise, Marian devotion, which only takes focus away from Christ, even if of Satan, was allowed by God.

Yes, I’m sure you’ll now say “Mary only points to Jesus, so she adds to focus on him, not takes away from”. This is specious. A true example of pointing to Jesus is John the Baptist. Jesus came, John said “Behold the Lamb of God”, and the disciples following him left John the baptist and started following Jesus. No longer did they look to John the Baptist, nor did they focus on him, but instead focused solely on Jesus. Mary doesn’t accomplish that.

Do you believe that Jesus made the Apostles into divinities, because He gave them authority?

No, but the apostles weren’t called “Queen of Heaven” either.

Do you mean to say that you do not believe Mary is the Mother of Christ!

Of course not. Sure, Mary’s the mother of Christ. What I was saying, fairly clearly is that the example in Revelation does not establish the “woman” to be the mother of Christ, nor does it establish her to be Mary in name, so I don’t see where you can state that it’s her.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Of course not. Sure, Mary’s the mother of Christ. What I was saying, fairly clearly is that the example in Revelation does not establish the “woman” to be the mother of Christ, nor does it establish her to be Mary in name, so I don’t see where you can state that it’s her

One could equivocally say

What I was saying, fairly clearly is that the example in Revelation does not establish the “woman” to be Israel so I don’t see where you can state that it’s her. No?

 

[PC_Master]

One could equivocally say

What I was saying, fairly clearly is that the example in Revelation does not establish the “woman” to be Israel so I don’t see where you can state that it’s her. No?

Since I never made such a statement that it was, I don’t see why it matters whether I have the justification to say that it is. But in any case, all you’ve done is said that the notion that she is Israel is as valid as the notion that she is Mary.

 

[NotWorthy]

Grace & Peace!

NotWorthy, I want to disagree with you here in order to make the point which others don’t seem to be getting.

Let me clarify my point to see if you still disagree with me. I understand what you posted, and I heartily agree with it.

My point was: Any person who attains heaven is greater than the angels. Mary, of course, is one of these saints. That was my point, and nothing more. I was being silent on whether Mary has greater “veneration” because of her status as Mother of God.

Now, if you tack on your post to my point, it does not take away from my point, am I correct?

BTW, thanks for the info!!!

 

[HailMary]

Since I never made such a statement that it was, I don’t see why it matters whether I have the justification to say that it is. But in any case, all you’ve done is said that the notion that she is Israel is as valid as the notion that she is Mary.

Except that doesn’t fit very well because Israel has never been “crowned” in the OT and the following passages clearly reveal it to be Mary.

Rev 12:17-18
And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

And who are the “seed” of the women?

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he said to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he said to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

In the Gospel according to St. John this disciple is unnamed is because that disciple is you!
The fruit of Mary’s suffering, united with Her son, are all of us. She who gave birth to the Head (Jesus), must, consequently, give birth to the Body (all Christians). Therefore, we are all children of Mary, as Christ was.

With this background, the primary meaning (not to say that Israel can’t be compared to this “woman”) is none other than the august, ever-Virgin Lady, Our Mother, Queen of Heaven and Earth, Mary, Mother of God.

 

[PC_Master]

From that simple bit you’ve cited, the woman could quite easily be Eve. But that gets into a whole different round of blind assertions, saying that Mary is the new Eve.

sigh When are you guys going to learn to support your claims with real logic?

 

[HailMary]

From that simple bit you’ve cited, the woman could quite easily be Eve. But that gets into a whole different round of blind assertions, saying that Mary is the new Eve.

sigh When are you guys going to learn to support your claims with real logic?

Christ is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve.

If you can’t see the striking different between Adam and Christ and Eve and Mary, perhaps you need to try roll-up your sleeves and try harder.

 

[PC_Master]

Christ is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve.

If you can’t see the striking different between Adam and Christ and Eve and Mary, perhaps you need to try roll-up your sleeves and try harder.

Stating that something is so does not make it so. Claiming an analogy doesn’t make the analogy an actual and real one. Don’t simply say “this is how it is – if you can’t see that, you’re stupid”. Instead, support your argument with real logic.

 

[HailMary]

Stating that something is so does not make it so. Claiming an analogy doesn’t make the analogy an actual and real one. Don’t simply say “this is how it is – if you can’t see that, you’re stupid”. Instead, support your argument with real logic.

If you can’t see the logic, maybe you should go pray more.