Hail Holy Queen

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Have you ever engaged a Mormon? They to tell me something similar to what you say here when they make claims about Joe Smith and being the only one who saw the plates.
Yes
What you say if they told you that their infallible authority told them them this is true even though it lacks any eyewitness accounts to support it?
It would just be beyond belief for me. However, I have 2000 years of Apostolic witness, all the way to the present day. I have the testimony of just men made Holy.

Tomorrow is Rosary Sunday. Catholics from all around the world will gather to celebrate Our Lady. 60,000 will gather tomorrow at the football stadium near here and pray this special prayer. To me, this is a witness to the power of the prayer. To me, this is eyewitness testimony. For you, on the other hand, these poor souls have been duped into false teaching, and probably pagan practices, and have fallen prey to the “speculations of men”. See? It is all a matter of perspective.😉
 
Yes

It would just be beyond belief for me. However, I have 2000 years of Apostolic witness, all the way to the present day. I have the testimony of just men made Holy.

Tomorrow is Rosary Sunday. Catholics from all around the world will gather to celebrate Our Lady. 60,000 will gather tomorrow at the football stadium near here and pray this special prayer. To me, this is a witness to the power of the prayer. To me, this is eyewitness testimony. For you, on the other hand, these poor souls have been duped into false teaching, and probably pagan practices, and have fallen prey to the “speculations of men”. See? It is all a matter of perspective.😉
Not so. Its not a matter of perspective but what do the scriptures teach? To think that the catholic church was totally unaware of the rosary for over 1000 years. To think that the vast majority of the prayers of the rosary are to Mary.
 
Not so. Its not a matter of perspective but what do the scriptures teach?
Not for those of us in the Apostolic Churches, ja4. We received the Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching, in addition to the Sacred word. Since we are not limited to that portion of the Divine Revelation that you have, we have a broader perspective of our faith.
To think that the catholic church was totally unaware of the rosary for over 1000 years.
This does not disturb us, since for one, it is a devotional practice, and many such practices have emerged over the centuries. So long as they are approved by the Church, we have no concerns. Fasting is the same way. Jesus said that the friends of the bridegroom would not fast while He was with them, but afterward. Many devotional practices of fasting have emerged since. We do not see this as inconsistent with the teachings of our Lord.
To think that the vast majority of the prayers of the rosary are to Mary.
A protestant dichotomy that does not exist in Catholic practice. When we pray, we pray together. “Our Father…”. It is not that we take something away from God when we ask our brothers and sisters for prayer. Mary’s prayers are powerful, as we can see at the wedding in Cana. Scripture enjoins us that the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous avail much, and we consider Mary to be such a person, with much avail!
 
Just, do you say the writers of the following are mistaken?

“Such is the nature of the human mind and intellect that, although by means of diligent and laborious inquiry it has of itself investigated and discovered many other things pertaining to a knowledge of divine truths; yet guided by its natural lights it never could have known or perceived most of those things by which is attained eternal salvation, the principal end of man’s creation and formation to the image and likeness of God. It is true that the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are, as the Apostle teaches, clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made: his eternal power also, and divinity. But the mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations so far transcends the reach of man’s understanding, that were it not made manifest by God to His Saints, to whom He willed to make known by the gift of faith, the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, man could by no effort attain to such wisdom.”
 
guanophore;2817350]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not so. Its not a matter of perspective but what do the scriptures teach?
guanophore
Not for those of us in the Apostolic Churches, ja4. We received the Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching, in addition to the Sacred word. Since we are not limited to that portion of the Divine Revelation that you have, we have a broader perspective of our faith.
You claim this Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching. What was this Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic? How do you know what it was?
 
How about this from the first part of the prayer-hymn:
Hail Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail Queen of Heaven and of Love, O Maria!

Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and Earth resound the Hymn

If you read all that the New Testament says about Mary, you will never find this kind of thing being said about her. Keep in mind that it is only in the NT that we know of her. These are the only facts we have about her and none of those facts ever make or say such a thing about her like this prayer-hymn claims.
So does the “Seat of Moses” ever mentioned in the Old Testament. But it was quoted by Jesus… which means there were passed on traditions that are not written.
 
nilofc;2818529]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How about this from the first part of the prayer-hymn:
Hail Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail Queen of Heaven and of Love, O Maria!
Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and Earth resound the Hymn
If you read all that the New Testament says about Mary, you will never find this kind of thing being said about her. Keep in mind that it is only in the NT that we know of her. These are the only facts we have about her and none of those facts ever make or say such a thing about her like this prayer-hymn claims.
nilofc
So does the “Seat of Moses” ever mentioned in the Old Testament. But it was quoted by Jesus… which means there were passed on traditions that are not written.
Not sure i understand you. What does tradition have to do with the marian hymn above?
 
Just, do you say the writers of the following are mistaken?

“Such is the nature of the human mind and intellect that, although by means of diligent and laborious inquiry it has of itself investigated and discovered many other things pertaining to a knowledge of divine truths; yet guided by its natural lights it never could have known or perceived most of those things by which is attained eternal salvation, the principal end of man’s creation and formation to the image and likeness of God. It is true that the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are, as the Apostle teaches, clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made: his eternal power also, and divinity. But the mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations so far transcends the reach of man’s understanding, that were it not made manifest by God to His Saints, to whom He willed to make known by the gift of faith, the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, man could by no effort attain to such wisdom.”
I think i do. What do you think this is saying?
 
But scornful men have coldly said
Thy love was leading me from God;
And yet in this I did but tread
The very path my Saviour Trod.

They know but little of thy worth
Who speak these heartless words to me;
For what did Jesus love on earth
One half so tenderly as thee?

Get me the grace to love thee more;
Jesus will give, if thou wilt plead;
And, Mother, when life’s cares are o’er,
Oh, I shall love thee then indeed.

Jesus, when His three hours were run
Bequeathed thee from the Cross to me;
And oh! how can I love thy Son,
Sweet Mother, if I love not thee?

St. John Henry Newman, “A Letter to the Rev. E.B. Pusey, D.D., On His Recent Eirencon”, pp101-102.
 
Not so. Its not a matter of perspective but what do the scriptures teach? To think that the catholic church was totally unaware of the rosary for over 1000 years. To think that the vast majority of the prayers of the rosary are to Mary.
To think that Christendom was totally unaware of “Amazing Grace” for 1800 years. How many times have you sung it?

Sheesh.
 
You claim this Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching. What was this Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic? How do you know what it was?
The Early Church Fathers viewed Tradition primarily as a mode of transmission of the gospel delivered once for all to the apostles. Later, theologians began to view Tradition primarily in terms of content that was developed through the unpacking of that deposit.

However, the former were not unaware of Tradition as content while the latter were not ignorant of Tradition as a mode of transmission.

Different emphases at different times in the life of the Church.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Not sure i understand you. What does tradition have to do with the marian hymn above?
Well,you always say that everything has to be in the Bible. I am just showing you a sample that some truths are not in it. Even the bible says so.

John 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

One more thing, Mother Mary is all over the Bible and not only in the New Testament.
 
Here are a few quotes that i find extremely troubling:
19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]
  1. She is called by St. John Damascene: “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]
  2. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]
  3. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all.
What is troubling is that the Scriptures never speak of her like this.
Mary is simply the most exalted creature God has ever made. Mother of the King of kings, she is the Queen Mother. It makes her above all earthly kings. Singularly graced IN SCRIPTURE Matt 1:28
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
No one else is so filled with grace as she is. Nobody believes that she filled herself or earned it, she was GIVEN it.

God exalted HER. If that is so, who am I to tell God that she’s just another person like me or you?

She is not ruler of God, but ruler by the Grace of God in the Will of God. Never otherwise.

One may ask, if she is so in tune with God, doesn’t that make her “rule” unnecessary, her commands redundant? Can’t God do it all without her? OF COURSE! Nobody BUT God is necessary.

What makes the Gospel GOOD news is that God isn’t a minimalist, he doesn’t do only what’s necessary, he pours out who he is and what he has in profligate, prodigal generosity!!! She is exalted because he wants to give mankind all he is and be a father to us. He wants us to share in his very LIFE.

If those are his motives, then why do we find it so hard to understand a) when he wants to GIVE it all to us and b) why he wants to punish us when we throw it back in his face?
 
Here are a few quotes that i find extremely troubling:
19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]
  1. She is called by St. John Damascene: “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]
  2. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]
  3. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all.
What is troubling is that the Scriptures never speak of her like this.
Why oh why is this so troubling? If you don’t believe it, then fine. But why troubling? We are not worshipping her, not at all! God made her what she is, no one else. To God be the glory. We respect Mary in a high regard because of what God made her.

Also, the New Testament deals mostly with Jesus and how we are to live our lives. That doesn’t mean no other truth is out there. I believe many truths, like those of Mary were passed about and pondered upon by the Apostles and early Christians and Church Fathers. They were there, not us.
 
You know, I begin to wonder if much of the root of Protestant difficulty with Mary is found in the origins of Protestantism itself. After all, many of the earliest Protestants were very anti-authority. . . anticlericial, anti monarchical. . .and some were positively MILITANT about bringing EVERYBODY to a totally ‘equal’ status (think of the Puritan ROUNDHEADS, or even the Quakers, who would ‘bow to NOBODY’ as being in any WAY superior and insisted that no one dress, or speak, or do anything to be THOUGHT ‘above’ anyone else).

In the U.S. in the East the first ‘wave’ of settlers had a LARGE number of very, very ‘anti-authority’, anti-clerical, and ‘egalitarian’ people. Even when the ‘majority’ (mainly Episcopal) came. . .they themselves were the product of Protestant rebellion against the Pope and clergy as well, plus they had had their own civil war and REGICIDE in the 17th century.

So with these attitudes, they would find it nearly COMPULSORY to ‘bring Mary down’ into ‘just another person’. And they would over time if they remained ‘fervent’ try to use any means they could to bring down ANYTHING in Scripture or practice that hinted of anybody being ‘more’ than they were. Saints? Can’t have them be ‘special’ so we’ll have them be DEAD and OBLIVIOUS. The apostles? We’ll lip service a ‘regard’ for them but if people actually start to praise them we’ll go to great lengths to point out how SINFUL St. Peter was, or to cast doubts on St. Paul’s ‘diversity’ and carp at how he ‘dissed women’ , etc. etc.

Because quite frankly, if they ever stopped their MAN MADE forcing of people into some mold of ‘equality’ simply because we’ve been inculcated into thinking that ‘equality’ means that no person should have ‘more’ than any other person, and that acknowledging a person as being a good follower of Christ is somehow 'falsely elevating them to the status of Christ" (it isn’t) and, worse yet, hurting their self esteem because somebody ELSE is being ‘honored’ instead of THEM. . .and recognized that Christ HIMSELF was trying to teach them to LOVE EACH OTHER, which means recognizing OTHER PEOPLE’S GOOD instead of falsely trying to turn EVERYBODY into SPIRITUAL NOTHINGS. . .they’d have to start acknowledging that Catholics are RIGHT.
 
You know, I begin to wonder if much of the root of Protestant difficulty with Mary is found in the origins of Protestantism itself. After all, many of the earliest Protestants were very anti-authority. . . anticlericial, anti monarchical. . .and some were positively MILITANT about bringing EVERYBODY to a totally ‘equal’ status (think of the Puritan ROUNDHEADS, or even the Quakers, who would ‘bow to NOBODY’ as being in any WAY superior and insisted that no one dress, or speak, or do anything to be THOUGHT ‘above’ anyone else).

In the U.S. in the East the first ‘wave’ of settlers had a LARGE number of very, very ‘anti-authority’, anti-clerical, and ‘egalitarian’ people. Even when the ‘majority’ (mainly Episcopal) came. . .they themselves were the product of Protestant rebellion against the Pope and clergy as well, plus they had had their own civil war and REGICIDE in the 17th century.

So with these attitudes, they would find it nearly COMPULSORY to ‘bring Mary down’ into ‘just another person’. And they would over time if they remained ‘fervent’ try to use any means they could to bring down ANYTHING in Scripture or practice that hinted of anybody being ‘more’ than they were. Saints? Can’t have them be ‘special’ so we’ll have them be DEAD and OBLIVIOUS. The apostles? We’ll lip service a ‘regard’ for them but if people actually start to praise them we’ll go to great lengths to point out how SINFUL St. Peter was, or to cast doubts on St. Paul’s ‘diversity’ and carp at how he ‘dissed women’ , etc. etc.

Because quite frankly, if they ever stopped their MAN MADE forcing of people into some mold of ‘equality’ simply because we’ve been inculcated into thinking that ‘equality’ means that no person should have ‘more’ than any other person, and that acknowledging a person as being a good follower of Christ is somehow 'falsely elevating them to the status of Christ" (it isn’t) and, worse yet, hurting their self esteem because somebody ELSE is being ‘honored’ instead of THEM. . .and recognized that Christ HIMSELF was trying to teach them to LOVE EACH OTHER, which means recognizing OTHER PEOPLE’S GOOD instead of falsely trying to turn EVERYBODY into SPIRITUAL NOTHINGS. . .they’d have to start acknowledging that Catholics are RIGHT.
Yep. God honors whom he will. God sees not as man sees, God sees the heart.
 
You claim this Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching. What was this Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic? How do you know what it was?
We find the Sacred Traditions preserved in the present day church. We know what they are because they are in the Catechism, and other Church Teachings.
Not sure i understand you. What does tradition have to do with the marian hymn above?
The Teachings of Jesus are found in the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church. They are not based on the bible. You are looking for something in the Bible that you may not find in there. The Bible emerged FROM the Sacred Traditions. It represents them, not the other way around.
Why oh why is this so troubling? If you don’t believe it, then fine. But why troubling? We are not worshipping her, not at all! God made her what she is, no one else. To God be the glory. We respect Mary in a high regard because of what God made her.

Also, the New Testament deals mostly with Jesus and how we are to live our lives. That doesn’t mean no other truth is out there. I believe many truths, like those of Mary were passed about and pondered upon by the Apostles and early Christians and Church Fathers. They were there, not us.
He explained in another post that he is troubled because, from his point of view, errors have crept into the church, and false teachers have emerged, and that Catholics have fallen into these wrong beliefs and practices. He wants for all of us to “see” this, so that we will turn instead to scripture as our Sole source of rule in faith and morals.
 
To think that Christendom was totally unaware of “Amazing Grace” for 1800 years. How many times have you sung it?

Sheesh.
It is one thing to sing a great hymn to God and another to pray to the highest saint in the church. Big difference.
 
guanophore
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You claim this Sacred Oral Tradition as part of the Apostle’s teaching. What was this Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic? How do you know what it was?
guanophore
We find the Sacred Traditions preserved in the present day church. We know what they are because they are in the Catechism, and other Church Teachings.
You didn’t answer the question. What was the Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic?
 
You didn’t answer the question. What was the Sacred Oral Tradition in the second century on this topic?
It has been present since before recorded history, ja4. God ordained these things before the beginning of time,and as long as there has been recorded history, we can look back and see it. The earliest reference we have to Mary we find in Genesis, where we find the Protoevangelium. From that day until this, we can see the role of Mary in God’s plan of salvation. There is no need for you to concern yourself about this, though. You have Jesus, and He is all you need. And you know all you need to know from the Bible. So, don’t stress! 👍
 
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