Hail Mary during Mass?

[jediliz]

St JPII asked that the St Michael prayer end the Mass and I don’t know why it hasn’t taken off more seriously. I wish it would.

My pastor doesn’t want it at the end of mass, but he wrote in the bulletin it can be said after the rosary before mass (which some don’t get to mass in time to recite). I even had my mom tell him that the pope that Saint Therese begged for permission to enter the convent early was the one that wrote it… He’s very orthodox …even has us sing four hymns when no organist is available for mass…

I’d love a hail Mary with prayers of the faithful…even if it’s just on Marian feasts…

 

[exnihilo]

so there have been a number of posts stating personal preferences in favor of the practice… What about the Apostolic Exhortation indicating that devotions should not be merged in to the liturgy? That should be ignored than? Seems like cafeteria style…

We have a priest that adds a Hail Mary at the end of the intercessory prayers. Based on evidence I’ve seen my unathoratative opinion is it should not be said during the Mass. But the priest who says it is a very orthodox and holy priest. He is a priest who speaks in his homilies against abortion and same sex marriage. Others do not. I try to praise him for the good he does and see no point to criticize him for this. So many other things go on that shouldn’t. I consider this a minor issue. If other issues were resolved then you could worry about this. I’d personally choose to wait for something more serious to work to correct. I’d save my political capital.

I remember reading a post by Monsignor Charles Pope about how someone complained that in celebrating the EF he didn’t do some minor gesture quite right. The complaintant was right. But he was being slightly irritating to a priest who is trying to do something good. I’m not saying this is the same thing. I am saying from a personal and practical point of view I’d be very careful what I chose to complain about. Imagine how much complaining a priest has to deal with? A good priest needs all the support they can get.

 

[ProVobis]

Will you accept the Bishops word that the Hail Mary is ok or will you take it higher if he doesn’t give you the answer you seek?

Fair question, but as long as he’s complaining to his bishop, why not ask just if a decade of the rosary is ok as well. Seems like there should be a line drawn there somewhere. Just sayin…

 

[Memaw]

Fair question, but as long as he’s complaining to his bishop, why not ask just if a decade of the rosary is ok as well. Seems like there should be a line drawn there somewhere. Just sayin…

Funny how so many Catholics simply ignore the Church’s teaching on Birth Control and being in the State of Grace before receiving Holy Communion but make a mountain out of a molehill over something as sweet as a Hail Mary. God Bless, Memaw

 

[godisgood77]

All,

I want to clarify something… my parish is a very prayerful parish… we enter each Mass saying the Memorae, we exit each Mass with the St Miichael prayer. Our kids attend daily Mass during the school year, say the Angelus daily after lunch and say a decade of the Rosary daily at the end of the day. We have perpetual adoration and on a weekly basis, we have parish wide adoration all together in the Church on Friday afternoon before dismissal.
We’ve agreed to all of these things via a school contract. These things draw people, like my family, to the Parish.

About a year ago, a new pastor was assigned…He promply fired our principal with no explanation. He added additional devotional practices outside of the parish contract without any communication or collaboration with the parents of the community. He began inserting his personal devotional practices into the Mass, the most obvious being the adding the Hail Mary to the Mass. Other notables have promoting medjugorie apparitions favorably…

I was asked by a good number of the parish community to open a conversation with him about a growing issue that community has with the direction. He promptly shut it down… that is why we were considering going to the Bishop… so there is more than just this innovation in the Mass… but that issue is one where there is a pretty clear papal teaching to not do it and a recent move by the Bishops conference in England to discontinue the practice…maybe that will help some understand that this is not a petty grievance; maybe not.

Ultimately, we trying to create the collaboration between the parents and the Church leadership… because the parents are the primary teachers of the children… even in Church matters…

So definitely more than original post suggested, but given how the thread devolved, I felt compelled to add background…

 

[godisgood77]

Funny how so many Catholics simply ignore the Church’s teaching on Birth Control and being in the State of Grace before receiving Holy Communion but make a mountain out of a molehill over something as sweet as a Hail Mary. God Bless, Memaw

That’s a pretty cheap generalization.

 

[chimo]

Our new Pastor began saying a Hail Mary during the bidding/intercessory prayers. I had never experienced this befor, so I looked in to it further…

Here is what I found…

From the Apostolic Exhortation Marias Cultus of Paul VI, 2/2/1974

1. We have already spoken of the veneration which the Church gives to the Mother of God in the celebration of the sacred liturgy. However, speaking of the other forms of devotion and of the criteria on which they should be based we wish to recall the norm laid down in the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium. This document, while wholeheartedly approving of the practices of piety of the Christian people, goes on to say: “…it is necessary however that such devotions with consideration for the liturgical seasons should be so arranged as to be in harmony with the sacred liturgy. They should somehow derive their inspiration from it, and because of its pre-eminence they should orient the Christian people towards it.”[93] Although this is a wise and clear rule, its application is not an easy matter, especially in regard to Marian devotions, which are so varied in their formal expressions. What is needed on the part of the leaders of the local communities is effort, pastoral sensitivity and perseverance, while the faithful on their part must show a willingness to accept guidelines and ideas drawn from the true nature of Christian worship; this sometimes makes it necessary to change long-standing customs wherein the real nature of this Christian worship has become somewhat obscured.

In this context we wish to mention two attitudes which in pastoral practice could nullify the norm of the Second Vatican Council. In the first place there are certain persons concerned with the care of souls who scorn, a priori, devotions of piety which, in their correct forms, have been recommended by the magisterium, who leave them aside and in this way create a vacuum which they do not fill. They forget that the Council has said that devotions of piety should harmonize with the liturgy, not be suppressed. Secondly there are those who, without wholesome liturgical and pastoral criteria, mix practices of piety and liturgical acts in hybrid celebrations. It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy, not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy.

Second… it appears that in England, the Hail Mary had been inserted in to the Mass during medieval times and became regional customer… However, Holy See sent a letter the Bishops of England indicating that the practice should be gently removed over time.

Based on these two pieces facts, it would appear that my good pastor should not be adding the Hail Mary to the Mass… In light of this, how would you recommend addressing with him.

Many thanks.

I don’t see any problem inserting the Hail Mary at the Mass. In the Eastern Orthodox Churches they continuously invoke Mary throughout the Divine Liturgy and at some intervals of the Liturgy you will hear the congregation and the priest together saying “save us”. This does not mean that we are calling Mary to save us but asking for her prayers so that the Lord will grant us His life saving graces. This is not a problem invoking Mary at the Divine Liturgy so why would it be a problem if it is done at a Catholic Mass? The Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Churches is the same service as is the Mass of the Catholic Church.

 

[ProVobis]

All,

I want to clarify something… my parish is a very prayerful parish… we enter each Mass saying the Memorae, we exit each Mass with the St Miichael prayer.

Ever consider having a Low Mass said in the EF? The Leonine prayers (Hail Mary, Hail Holy Queen, St Michael, etc.) are supposed to be said after the Mass. Universally. Sometimes the LItany of Saints and other prayers the priest may choose. Just sayin…

 

[trinnnnity]

From what I understand it’s not really the Hail Mary, it’s his overall controlling personality?

It’s a very difficult situation. Perhaps the concerned parents could befriend him and try to work through those avenues. Invite him out to eat or to dinner at your home a few times and get to know him before you even bring up your concerns, ask him to explain his plans for the parish.
A close family member is a priest, they are people just like everyone else, and feel their responsibilities so heavily. It could make them resistant to criticism.
Heck, criticism the wrong way can make anyone resistant and people (I’m not saying this writer is) can be very free with their criticisms. The stories I hear are quite devastating for parishes and for priests.
So many write to the bishop without talking to the priest and don’t realize how very damaging and painful this is, especially to a younger priest.
Priests have rights and responsibilities and yet so do the people have rights and responsibilities.

 

[biffoqueen]

We always have the Hail Mary at mass but usually it’s our intentions through the intercession of our lady but it’s pretty normal here. I live in Ireland

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

All,

I want to clarify somethingAgain?.. my parish is a very prayerful parish… we enter each Mass saying the Memorae, we exit each Mass with the St Miichael prayer.Why is that ok? Our kids attend daily Mass during the school year, say the Angelus daily after lunch and say a decade of the Rosary daily at the end of the day. We have perpetual adoration and on a weekly basis, we have parish wide adoration all together in the Church on Friday afternoon before dismissal. all those things sound good
We’ve agreed to all of these things via a school contract. ? Don’t understand that part These things draw people, like my family, to the Parish.

About a year ago, a new pastor was assigned…He promply fired our principal with no explanation. nor are you or anyone else due one He added additional devotional practices outside of the parish contract without any communication or collaboration with the parents of the community.As is his right as the pastor. He began inserting his personal devotional practices into the Mass, the most obvious being the adding the Hail Mary to the Mass. Other notables have promoting medjugorie apparitions favorably… I think this is a bigger issue than your initial concern

I was asked by a good number of the parish community to open a conversation with him about a growing issue that community has with the direction.um, that is a bad idea. I wonder why you are indeed the spokesman for all these armies of people that don’t like this? Why can’t they speak with him directly? He promptly shut it down…Because he does not agree with you. that is why we were considering going to the Bishop…Why, because a pastor is praying at mass!? so there is more than just this innovation in the Mass… but that issue is one where there is a pretty clear papal teaching to not do it and a recent move by the Bishops conference in England to discontinue the practice…maybe that will help some understand that this is not a petty grievance; maybe not.No, its petty because it is not the real problem you have with him.

Ultimately, we trying to create the collaboration between the parents and the Church leadership…Why?. because the parents are the primary teachers of the children…Yes. even in Church matters… No

So definitely more than original post suggested, but given how the thread devolved, I felt compelled to add background…

This thread has not devolved. You just have not gotten the answers you wished for. There are a couple of red flags on this thread.

1. You start off with the original problem and then when others point out that they do not see it your way you add to the issue. This started out as a simple question about putting the hail Mary in Mass and you through layman and amateur eyes asked if the proof that it could not be done was in a document to some bishops in another country.
   When, told that this is not a hill to die on you then try to make the hill bigger by adding all sorts of things.
2. You have a posting history where it is obvious that Marian Devotion is something you might be biased about because of personal beliefs or experiences. You should recognize that this may be making you gunshy about this particular issue.
3. You are bringing others into this saying that you are speaking for many in the parish who have asked you to. Your response instead of joining a made up coup should have been “I see and agree with your position+. Perhaps you should talk to father about it yourself.”
4. There is a parental aspect you keep hinting at but have not elaborated on. Perhaps you could explain the relevance of parents in this whole thing, vs any other parishioner?
   I would caution you about going to the bishop now. You cannot even persuade one poster on here of your perceived injustice. Getting a Bishop to correct a priest based on your personal viewpoint is going to be darn near impossible.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ever consider having a Low Mass said in the EF? The Leonine prayers (Hail Mary, Hail Holy Queen, St Michael, etc.) are supposed to be said after the Mass. Universally. Sometimes the LItany of Saints and other prayers the priest may choose. Just sayin…

What!? What kind of innovation is that? What kind of stepping on people’s toes and undermining parents authority is this you speak of?!
Oh, wait, it’s in latin so no one knows that this is happening…

yeah, its a little snarky but I couldn’t resist!

I also think this is a classic case of “we got a new priest and he does not understand how WE do things around here.” Which is an extension of the erosion of the office of the priesthood, the concept of “Father” and the growth of “parish leadership groups”

 

[godisgood77]

Hoosier Daddy, I guess I’ll go point by point…

I want to clarify something Again?.. . - yes, do you have an issue with clarification? I obviously didn’t capture the entire context of the issue in the first post… so, I’m adding to it… pretty typical for conversation, no?

my parish is a very prayerful parish… we enter each Mass saying the Memorae, we exit each Mass with the St Michael prayer. Why is that ok? -** The reason I’m focusing on parents is because the Church is attached to a school. In order to attend, all of the parents signed a contract agreeing to a number of items… this being on of them. **

Our kids attend daily Mass during the school year, say the Angelus daily after lunch and say a decade of the Rosary daily at the end of the day. We have perpetual adoration and on a weekly basis, we have parish wide adoration all together in the Church on Friday afternoon before dismissal. all those things sound good - Agreed, the entire school community agreed to them. As I stated, it was a reason for joining the parish years ago and a reason why people are attracted.

We’ve agreed to all of these things via a school contract. ? Don’t understand that part -** see above, we signed an agreement agreeing to these parameters so there was no confusion and transparency on the vision and plan. **

About a year ago, a new pastor was assigned…He promply fired our principal with no explanation. nor are you or anyone else due one - totally disagree as do the parents of the school. Trust, but verify sure. Blind trust… no way. The trust me concept hasn’t really worked out well for the Church has it?

He added additional devotional practices outside of the parish contract without any communication or collaboration with the parents of the community. As is his right as the pastor. ** - No one has a right to force personal devotional practices on others…by nature they are optional…
**

He began inserting his personal devotional practices into the Mass, the most obvious being the adding the Hail Mary to the Mass. Other notables have promoting medjugorie apparitions favorably… I think this is a bigger issue than your initial concern - Agreed. The community is looking at this as a body of work

I was asked by a good number of the parish community to open a conversation with him about a growing issue that community has with the direction. - um, that is a bad idea. I wonder why you are indeed the spokesman for all these armies of people that don’t like this? Why can’t they speak with him directly? -** no one said armies, as I mentioned, a good number of families. I couldn’t say why they asked me, but they did. Many have talked with him directly… **

He promptly shut it down…Because he does not agree with you. that is why we were considering going to the Bishop…Why, because a pastor is praying at mass!? - No, not because he is praying at Mass, don’t be ridiculous.

No, its petty because it is not the real problem you have with him **Like I said, it won’t satisfy some… like you my friend. **

Ultimately, we trying to create the collaboration between the parents and the Church leadership…Why?. - seriously? ** because the parents are the primary teachers of the children…Yes. - Thanks **even in Church matters… No - When it comes to personal devotions… yes

This thread has not devolved. You just have not gotten the answers you wished for. There are a couple of red flags on this thread.

1. You start off with the original problem and then when others point out that they do not see it your way you add to the issue. This started out as a simple question about putting the hail Mary in Mass and you through layman and amateur eyes asked if the proof that it could not be done was in a document to some bishops in another country.
   When, told that this is not a hill to die on you then try to make the hill bigger by adding all sorts of things. -** just being honest… by the way, my amateur argument was based on papal teaching reinforced by a document from a Bishops conference… so I guess citing Church documents is a harbinger for amateur hour? Name calling? and the thread hasn’t devolved, huh?**
2. You have a posting history where it is obvious that Marian Devotion is something you might be biased about because of personal beliefs or experiences. You should recognize that this may be making you gunshy about this particular issue. - I’m self aware about my personal beliefs… remember, other came to me with these issues. If you don’t want to see it… so be it.
3. You are bringing others into this saying that you are speaking for many in the parish who have asked you to. Your response instead of joining a made up coup should have been “I see and agree with your position+. Perhaps you should talk to father about it yourself.” - Made up coup? I’m a liar then? pretty bold. Many have talked to father directly
4. There is a parental aspect you keep hinting at but have not elaborated on. Perhaps you could explain the relevance of parents in this whole thing, vs any other parishioner?
   I would caution you about going to the bishop now. You cannot even persuade one poster on here of your perceived injustice. Getting a Bishop to correct a priest based on your personal viewpoint is going to be darn near impossible.**- i’m not trying to persuade… just being honest. I answered the parents/parishioner question earlier… there were a few in the thread that agree on the add to the Mass part. **

Thanks Hoosier…I’ll let you know how it goes…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoosier Daddy, I guess I’ll go point by point…

I want to clarify something Again?.. . - yes, do you have an issue with clarification? I obviously didn’t capture the entire context of the issue in the first post… so, I’m adding to it… pretty typical for conversation, no?

my parish is a very prayerful parish… we enter each Mass saying the Memorae, we exit each Mass with the St Michael prayer. Why is that ok? -** The reason I’m focusing on parents is because the Church is attached to a school. In order to attend, all of the parents signed a contract agreeing to a number of items… this being on of them. **

Our kids attend daily Mass during the school year, say the Angelus daily after lunch and say a decade of the Rosary daily at the end of the day. We have perpetual adoration and on a weekly basis, we have parish wide adoration all together in the Church on Friday afternoon before dismissal. all those things sound good - Agreed, the entire school community agreed to them. As I stated, it was a reason for joining the parish years ago and a reason why people are attracted.

We’ve agreed to all of these things via a school contract. ? Don’t understand that part -** see above, we signed an agreement agreeing to these parameters so there was no confusion and transparency on the vision and plan. **

About a year ago, a new pastor was assigned…He promply fired our principal with no explanation. nor are you or anyone else due one - totally disagree as do the parents of the school. Trust, but verify sure. Blind trust… no way. The trust me concept hasn’t really worked out well for the Church has it?

He added additional devotional practices outside of the parish contract without any communication or collaboration with the parents of the community. As is his right as the pastor. ** - No one has a right to force personal devotional practices on others…by nature they are optional…
**

He began inserting his personal devotional practices into the Mass, the most obvious being the adding the Hail Mary to the Mass. Other notables have promoting medjugorie apparitions favorably… I think this is a bigger issue than your initial concern - Agreed. The community is looking at this as a body of work

I was asked by a good number of the parish community to open a conversation with him about a growing issue that community has with the direction. - um, that is a bad idea. I wonder why you are indeed the spokesman for all these armies of people that don’t like this? Why can’t they speak with him directly? -** no one said armies, as I mentioned, a good number of families. I couldn’t say why they asked me, but they did. Many have talked with him directly… **

He promptly shut it down…Because he does not agree with you. that is why we were considering going to the Bishop…Why, because a pastor is praying at mass!? - No, not because he is praying at Mass, don’t be ridiculous.

No, its petty because it is not the real problem you have with him **Like I said, it won’t satisfy some… like you my friend. **

Ultimately, we trying to create the collaboration between the parents and the Church leadership…Why?. - seriously? ** because the parents are the primary teachers of the children…Yes. - Thanks **even in Church matters… No - When it comes to personal devotions… yes

Thanks Hoosier…I’ll let you know how it goes…

Im not sure what you hope to gain here on CAF. You will not find support in your crusade in this matter. I highly doubt some things like signing a contract to say the St Michael prayer… etc. As you try to defend your position you keep getting more and more outlandish.

Here is my advice for what it is worth.

You need to absolutely change the way you are addressing this. You need to educate yourself on the roles of the Church and if the above posts are any indication you need to be introspective in how you wish to present this to either the priest or the Bishop. You need to be a little more honest with yourself in that you may just not like certain things and you may have to learn the virtue of patience and humility. None of which I have seen expressed in your posts.

Perhaps you can use this thread as a learning tool that indicates that if your point is valid and correct that you are doing a poor job of communicating it.

Good luck to you.

PS

Some of us would be darn happy to have the parish you have…

 

[godisgood77]

Im not sure what you hope to gain here on CAF. You will not find support in your crusade in this matter. I highly doubt some things like signing a contract to say the St Michael prayer… etc. As you try to defend your position you keep getting more and more outlandish.

Here is my advice for what it is worth.

You need to absolutely change the way you are addressing this. You need to educate yourself on the roles of the Church and if the above posts are any indication you need to be introspective in how you wish to present this to either the priest or the Bishop. You need to be a little more honest with yourself in that you may just not like certain things and you may have to learn the virtue of patience and humility. None of which I have seen expressed in your posts.

Perhaps you can use this thread as a learning tool that indicates that if your point is valid and correct that you are doing a poor job of communicating it.

Good luck to you.

PS

Some of us would be darn happy to have the parish you have…

Okay thanks Hoosier… I’ll take your advice and try to learn from the conversation, that is after all why I come here…

I’d recommend you do the same and try to learn from the conversation…
RE patience and humility issue…

ps - I don’t think I’ve ever been called a liar on the forum…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If indeed there is a contract one must sign to say the St Michael prayer after Mass or the Hail Mary etc then this would need to be addressed to the Bishop.

I googled Diocese of Rockford contract Hail Mary and also St Michael etc and found no such form that I could locate…

perhaps one could be provided?

 

[ProVobis]

If indeed there is a contract one must sign to say the St Michael prayer after Mass or the Hail Mary etc then this would need to be addressed to the Bishop.

I googled Diocese of Rockford contract Hail Mary and also St Michael etc and found no such form that I could locate…

perhaps one could be provided?

Have you tried Legal Zoom?

They can probably draw one up in five minutes.

This is beginning to sound like a skit on Monty Python where someone couldn’t find a license for his goldfish so he took a Dog License form and crossed the word “Dog” out and replaced it with “Fish.”

 

[johnnyc176]

If indeed there is a contract one must sign to say the St Michael prayer after Mass or the Hail Mary etc then this would need to be addressed to the Bishop.

I googled Diocese of Rockford contract Hail Mary and also St Michael etc and found no such form that I could locate…

perhaps one could be provided?

Very strange situation. A contract on how the Liturgy was to be celebrated? The new priest probably was like…‘huh?’

 

[Memaw]

That’s a pretty cheap generalization.

You think!!!
Very TRUE tho !! God Bless, Memaw