Hail Mary in Italian changes the meaning of the original?

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Not sure if this is the right forum, but I couldn’t think where else would be appropriate. The Hail Mary in Italian is:

Ave, o Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore è con te. Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù Santa Maria, Madre di Dio, prega per noi peccatoti, adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte.

This phrase, “benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù” appears to translate to “and blessed is the fruit of thy breast, Jesus.”

If I have this translation correct, my question is why exactly do they use the word breast and not womb like in the original Ave Maria?

Thanks for your help! 🙂
 
ac_claire said:
Not sure if this is the right forum, but I couldn’t think where else would be appropriate. The Hail Mary in Italian is:

Ave, o Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore è con te. Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù Santa Maria, Madre di Dio, prega per noi peccatoti, adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte.

This phrase, “benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù” appears to translate to “and blessed is the fruit of thy breast, Jesus.”

If I have this translation correct, my question is why exactly do they use the word breast and not womb like in the original Ave Maria?

Thanks for your help! 🙂
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There is a discussion on this topic in the “Modernizing the Hail Mary” thread.
 
Words do change meanings over the years.

It could be that seno at one time meant “inner parts”–which would include the womb.

Psalm 102 “Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless His holy name” uses the word EVSLPAGXNAS in Greek, which literally means “entrails” today (cf ENTRAÑAS in Spanish).
 
ac_claire said:
The Hail Mary in Italian is:

Ave, o Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore è con te. Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù Santa Maria, Madre di Dio, prega per noi peccatoti, adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte.

This phrase, “benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù” appears to translate to “and blessed is the fruit of thy breast, Jesus.”

If I have this translation correct, my question is why exactly do they use the word breast and not womb like in the original Ave Maria?

Thanks for your help! 🙂
Click to expand...
Firstly, Latin was not the original language. The first part of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, therefore, Greek or Hebrew.
Now, according to my Latin dictionary, ventris means “belly” or “abdomen”. The Latin for “womb” is uterus, so the question is, why is it mistranslated in English?..
 
Cristiano said:
There is a discussion on this topic in the “Modernizing the Hail Mary” thread.
Click to expand...
Thanks, my friend. 🙂

That’s actually why I started this thread, to try and get an answer to the questions raised in that thread lol. So, I see that the meaning of “breast” in the Italian is slightly different than the meaning in English. At least in this context. But if the traditional word was ventre, I’m wondering why it was changed?

Is there any truth to what another poster mentioned on that thread, that ventre isn’t even an accurate translation of womb and that’s why it was changed to seno?

If that’s the case, why didn’t they just use the actual Italian word for womb?
 
Spirithound said:
Firstly, Latin was not the original language. The first part of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, therefore, Greek or Hebrew.
Now, according to my Latin dictionary, ventris means “belly” or “abdomen”. The Latin for “womb” is uterus, so the question is, why is it mistranslated in English?..
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If you look at womb you can find the following:

Etymology: Middle English wamb, womb, from Old English; akin to Old High German wamba belly

ventre comes directly from ventris (belly) and womb comes from the old German wamba (belly). Ewerything is in place.

2000 years ago people, including the BVM, did not know human anatomy. Can you imagine if the Angel would have used the word uterus? Mary would have not understood.
 
Spirithound said:
Firstly, Latin was not the original language. The first part of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, therefore, Greek or Hebrew.
Now, according to my Latin dictionary, ventris means “belly” or “abdomen”. The Latin for “womb” is uterus, so the question is, why is it mistranslated in English?..
Click to expand...
My latin dictionary includes ventris as meaning womb, there is also alvi and volvae which can refer to womb. Uterus does not exclusively mean womb either, it also can just mean belly or abdomen just like ventris.
 
Cristiano said:
…2000 years ago people, including the BVM, did not know human anatomy. Can you imagine if the Angel would have used the word uterus? Mary would have not understood.
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I proved myself wrong one more time. Luke 1,31 in Latin “Ecce concipies in utero, et paries filium, et vocabis nomen ejus Jesum” :banghead: :banghead: 😊 😊
 
ac_claire said:
Thanks, my friend. 🙂

That’s actually why I started this thread, to try and get an answer to the questions raised in that thread lol. So, I see that the meaning of “breast” in the Italian is slightly different than the meaning in English. At least in this context. But if the traditional word was ventre, I’m wondering why it was changed?

Is there any truth to what another poster mentioned on that thread, that ventre isn’t even an accurate translation of womb and that’s why it was changed to seno?

If that’s the case, why didn’t they just use the actual Italian word for womb?
Click to expand...
The actual Italian word is ventre, though it can also be grembo or utero.
 
Leonius said:
The actual Italian word is ventre, though it can also be grembo or utero.
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Grembo is an interesting word because has two meanings

1- The external fold that forms between the belly and the knees of a sitting person

2- The womb of a pregnant woman

I guess that if she is not pregnant #2 does not apply to her. 😃
 
ac_claire said:
Not sure if this is the right forum, but I couldn’t think where else would be appropriate. The Hail Mary in Italian is:

Ave, o Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore è con te. Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesù Santa Maria, Madre di Dio, prega per noi peccatoti, adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte.
Click to expand...
I believe that should be prega per noi peccatori
 
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