Hail Mary: 'Our Lord' or 'The Lord'?

[paperwight66]

Don’t know if someone already mentioned this, but up until the 19th century, “Our Lord”, and not “the Lord”, was said in the English version of the Hail Mary.

That’s interesting. Source?

 

[HelenRose]

Ave Maria, gratia plena
***Dominus ***tecum…

In the Latin from which we get our English version, the word for Lord is “Dominus,” the singular, nominative form. If it was meant to be translated as “Our Lord” it would say “Dominum nostrum.”

In short, “*the *Lord” is the better translation.

Works for me.

 

[ProVobis]

In the Latin from which we get our English version, the word for Lord is “Dominus,” the singular, nominative form. If it was meant to be translated as “Our Lord” it would say “Dominum nostrum.”

Actually “Dominus Noster” would be the nominative form.

 

[Dolezal]

That’s interesting. Source?

The Douay-Rheims translates “Dominus” to “Our Lord” in the Angelic Salutation and, I think, all other places. Challoner, in his revision of the Douay-Rheims, changed “Our Lord” to “the Lord”. Supposedly to make it more like the King James Version. Challoner’s revision of the Douay-Rheims is the reason why English-speaking Catholics began saying “the Lord”, instead of the “Our Lord”, in the Hail Mary. Some (many?) Catholics did not like the change of “Our Lord” to “the Lord”, because “the Lord” was a typical Protestant expression.

Cardinal Wiseman, who was very much opposed to the change, observes:

There is another alteration of more importance, especially
when it is considered in reference to the present times, and the
influence it has had upon established forms of Catholic speech.
**In the first edition, in conformity to Catholic usage in England,
the word Dominus is almost always translated by Our Lord. **
The amended text changed the pronoun into an article, and
says The Lord. In the Ave Maria Catholics have always, till
lately, been accustomed to say, Our Lord is with thee; as it
is in that version, and as it was always used in England, even
before that translation was made. But, in conformity with the
change of the text, we have observed of late a tendency to
introduce into the prayer a similar variation, and to say, The
Lord is with thee : a change which we strongly deprecate as
stiff, cantish, destructive of the unction which the prayer
breathes, and of that union which the pronoun inspires between
the reciter and her who is addressed. We have no hesitation
in saying that this difference, trifling as many will consider it,
expresses strongly the different spirits of our and other religions.
It has never been the custom of the Catholic Church to say,
The Redeemer, the Saviour, the Lord, the Virgin ; Redemptor
nosier, Dominus nosterj and so * our Saviour, our Lord, our
Lady, are the terms sanctioned, and, therefore, consecrated by
Catholic usage since the time of the Fathers. We own it grates
our ears and jars upon our feelings to hear the former essentially
un-Catholic forms used by preachers and writers ; they want
affection ; they are insipid, formal ; they remind us of Geneva
caps, and smack of predestination. **The Rheims translators
have explained their reason for their translation in a note
(P- 585), as follows : We Catholics must not say The Lord, but
Our Lord ; as we say Our Lady for His Mother, not The Lady. **
Let us keep our forefathers words, and we shall easily keep
our old and true faith, which we had of the first Christians.
Nor is such a modification of the word Dominus peculiar to
the English Catholics ; the Syriac version, and after it the
Syriac Church, calls Christ not simply moryo, the Lord," but
moran, our Lord, even where the Greek has 6 Kvpiog. If, there
fore, it be considered too great a departure from accuracy in
translation to restore the pronoun in the text of our version,
let us at least preserve it in our instructions, and still more
in our formularies of prayer.

Source: Pietas Mariana Britannica : a history of English devotion to the Most Blessed Virgin Marye Mother of God

 

[Dolezal]

As an aside, in my language, Dutch, it has always been “the Lord”, and a 160 year old Dutch translation of the Clementine Vulgate also renders it “the Lord”. “The Lord” is more correct, but English Catholics always said “Our Lord” until the 19th century.

 

[Rich_C]

Actually “Dominus Noster” would be the nominative form.

I didn’t mean “Dominum nostrum” is nominative, but rather that it is how the Church says “Our Lord” in Her prayers. It’s part of the end of every collect in my missal and breviary: “per Dominum nostum, Iesu Christum, filii tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnum, etc.”

 

[paperwight66]

As an aside, in my language, Dutch, it has always been “the Lord”, and a 160 year old Dutch translation of the Clementine Vulgate also renders it “the Lord”. “The Lord” is more correct, but English Catholics always said “Our Lord” until the 19th century.

That’s really interesting. It suddenly struck me that I have always thought of ‘The Lord’ as meaning God. as in ‘Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God’, whereas ‘Our Lord’, to me, means Jesus.

I see a difference bewteen saying ‘the Lord (God) is with you’, and ‘Our Lord is with you’, implying that Jesus was already conceived, in a way.

 

[Elizium23]

paperwight, you may be under this impression because of the uniform use of the formula of uppercase “The LORD” in Bible translations when representing the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) for the Holy Name of God, and the similar practice of using “Through Christ, our Lord” in official liturgical prayers.

But I think it is a false dichotomy. God the Father is just as personal to us as God the Son, and we can think of both of them as Our Lord, just as the Holy Spirit is Our Lord, and the Lord as well.

 

[ProVobis]

So how did Dominus become “Lord” anyway? It seems unclear.

Lord

mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from O.E. hlaford “master of a household, ruler, superior,” also “God” (translating L. Dominus, though O.E. drihten was used more often), earlier hlafweard, lit. “one who guards the loaves,” from hlaf “bread, loaf” (see loaf (n.)) + weard “keeper, guardian” (see ward (n.)). Cf. lady, and O.E. hlafæta “household servant,” lit. “loaf-eater.” Modern monosyllabic form emerged 14c. As an interjection from late 14c. Lord’s Prayer is from 1540s. Lord of the Flies translates Beelzebub (q.v.) and was name of 1954 book by William Golding. To drink like a lord is from 1620s.

It may put things into better perspective by listing some of the English cognates of Dominus: domain, dominion, dominate, Dom.

So not to be confused with the “My Sweet Lord” Krishnas, we may want to stick with the Latin. Just sayin’