Hail Mary

[adstrinity]

i agree, lets treat ourselves to the fullness of the truth in Catholic church on this. Let’s go outside of Scripture since we know it never claims Mary is the spouse of the Spirit. When and by whom does this idea of spouse of the Spirit first appear in church history?

If you’d really care, you’d look it up and see where this is based. IF you really cared.

 

[guanophore]

Do any of the NT writers refer to themselves as catholics? What were the 1st followers of Jesus called?

It is the Church that the Apostles and NT writers referred to as Catholic. In the book of Acts it is called The Way. This is how Jesus is lived out in His people by faith, the spirit working through the Church. It is a way of life, a perspective, a world view. This way of life was universal across everywhere the gospel was taken. That is why it was called Catholic.

My point is that since you reject the authority of Scriptures you must embrace the authority of the leaders of your church who can and have erred.

There are several logical errors here. One is that Catholics don’t consider the Scripture authoritative. Of course we do! The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, and that is why nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching.

Another is that one “must embrace the authority of…” which is not true either. One does not have to embrace any authority. One can, as you do, become an authority unto themselves.

Third, yes, people in the church err, but the Church herself cannot err. This is because she is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. Her Head is Christ, and He is divine, and cannot err.

The idea that Mary is referred to the spouse of the HS is not derived from the Scriptures nor the HS but from men.

Well, we read it differently.

I think your understanding of the scriptures about Mary does not come from the HS, but from men. Where does that get us?

 

[happilycatholic]

Are you trying to tell me that the Apostles that wrote the Gospels were not catholic? Did they not receive Holy Communion with our Lord? Did he not tell them to do this? Did they not accept their service to our Lord and commit themselves only unto Him and leave their earthly properties and familes to reside among the people? Did they not confess their sins to one another and tell others to do so. Did they not anoint the sick as our Priests do today?

And yes I know Mark and Luke were not one of the twelve. I meant that inclusively, not exclusiveley.

 

[happilycatholic]

JustAsking:

You asked me who the first Christians were. They were the catholics who believed in Jesus, not because His name was written in the early Jewish scripture but because they had faith. They were the ones who followed Christ not because what He was teaching was written in scripture but because they had faith.

Christ was put on trial because His name was not written in the Pharisees’ scripture.

What is happening on this forum to the Church is a lot like what happened to Christ. Just because the Bible doesn’t say “catholic” the Church isn’t catholic. Just because the Bible doesn’t say, “Seat of Wisdom” Mary isn’t the Mother of Christ.

Just because the Jewish scripture didn’t say “Jesus” didn’t mean He wasn’t the Messiah.

 

[guanophore]

JustAsking:

You asked me who the first Christians were. They were the catholics who believed in Jesus, not because His name was written in the early Jewish scripture but because they had faith. They were the ones who followed Christ not because what He was teaching was written in scripture but because they had faith.

Christ was put on trial because His name was not written in the Pharisees’ scripture.

What is happening on this forum to the Church is a lot like what happened to Christ. Just because the Bible doesn’t say “catholic” the Church isn’t catholic. Just because the Bible doesn’t say, “Seat of Wisdom” Mary isn’t the Mother of Christ.

Just because the Jewish scripture didn’t say “Jesus” didn’t mean He wasn’t the Messiah.

I agaree with you, but I just want to add that the Bible does refer to our faith as Catholic:

"Meanwhile **the church throughout **Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers. " Acts 9:31

This is a rendering from the Greek Ecclesia Kath holos = Church Catholic

Catholic comes from Kath holos meaning “throughout”, or universal. The church throughout the known world was all the same. This description of the Church stuck, and was used by the Early fathers from the writing of the book of Acts to the present day.

 

[happilycatholic]

I agaree with you, but I just want to add that the Bible does refer to our faith as Catholic:

"Meanwhile **the church throughout **Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers. " Acts 9:31

This is a rendering from the Greek Ecclesia Kath holos = Church Catholic

Catholic comes from Kath holos meaning “throughout”, or universal. The church throughout the known world was all the same. This description of the Church stuck, and was used by the Early fathers from the writing of the book of Acts to the present day.

Thanks guanophore! I can always use the help! You and I know that but unfortunatly non-catholics read with non denominational eyes. They must to prove their point. So no matter how many quotations we give them to read, they’ll read their point into it.

I wonder what they’d say if I said they became catholic (part of the Church Universal) when they were baptized and by not practicing the faith, have fallen out of grace. By the simple separation from the Church (claiming Protestantism) they fell out of grace. I don’t say those things because it only turns them away.

We don’t want to shine so bright a light so as to not let their eyes be opened.

There were only two convenants given to us by God. One was in the OT and one in the NT. The way I see it there are only two choices, Judaism or Catholicism. That is the only line in the sand. Right? Jesus didn’t give his Apostles a choice to follow him or some faith they made up themselves. It was follow the old ways or follow Him.

All others are created by man, lead by man and claimed only by man.

 

[justasking4]

Yes, each one is for a blessing. Your problem with that?

First we look to the Scriptures for any hint of candles providing some kind of “blessing”. I’m not aware of any.
How do candles provide or whatever for a blessing?

 

[justasking4]

Because humans in Heaven are higher than angels once they are alive with Christ.

Originally Posted by justasking4
i agree, lets treat ourselves to the fullness of the truth in Catholic church on this. Let’s go outside of Scripture since we know it never claims Mary is the spouse of the Spirit. When and by whom does this idea of spouse of the Spirit first appear in church history?

adstrinity
If you’d really care, you’d look it up and see where this is based. IF you really cared.

Its not about caring per se but what is the basis for saying that Mary is the spouse of the HS since the Scriptures never mention it. If its not found there then we need to see if we can find who first mentions this kind of thing and when. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

 

[happilycatholic]

First we look to the Scriptures for any hint of candles providing some kind of “blessing”. I’m not aware of any.
How do candles provide or whatever for a blessing?

Good Morning JustAsking!

I’m glad to see you today

You may look for scriptures if you want to, that’s your deal. I will go to the chapel and light candles and I’ll light one for you No offense intended, I just think everyone can use a blessing.

It’s so beautiful when you are sitting there in the quiet with the only the light of the candle. Each one represents a person being prayed for.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4326202]JustAsking:

You asked me who the first Christians were. They were the catholics who believed in Jesus, not because His name was written in the early Jewish scripture but because they had faith. They were the ones who followed Christ not because what He was teaching was written in scripture but because they had faith.

What was the name given to the first Christians? Was it catholic or Christian?

Christ was put on trial because His name was not written in the Pharisees’ scripture.

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

What is happening on this forum to the Church is a lot like what happened to Christ. Just because the Bible doesn’t say “catholic” the Church isn’t catholic. Just because the Bible doesn’t say, “Seat of Wisdom” Mary isn’t the Mother of Christ.

I never doubted that Mary was the mother of Christ.

Just because the Jewish scripture didn’t say “Jesus” didn’t mean He wasn’t the Messiah.

True

 

[happilycatholic]

Just because someone says something does not make it true.

Curious you should say that…

 

[Lampo]

First we look to the Scriptures for any hint of candles providing some kind of “blessing”. I’m not aware of any.
How do candles provide or whatever for a blessing?

Light, as the New Catholic Encyclopedia notes, signifies “joy, optimism, goodness, purity, beauty, festiveness, dignity and life. It is opposed to darkness, which signifies sadness, gloom, desolation, death, ignorance, error, and evil in general.” Christians also find in light the symbol of “truth, faith, wisdom, virtue, grace, divine life, charity, ardor of prayer, sacred presence and the beatific vision.”

Light is created by God. “Then God said ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light. God saw how good the light was” (Gen. 1:3-4). God manifests himself in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2). He dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16). He is light and in him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5). The Holy of Holies is lighted with the seven-branched candle stand (Lev. 24:2-4).

The early Church saw light in use in pagan rites. Lamps, candles, and fires were used to venerate the gods, the dead, and the emperor. The use was so pervasive that the Church was inhibited in using candles in its own rites. Christians attempted to avoid confusion and syncretism by confining candles to the practical matter of household illumination.

You can read more about this here.

A critic of candles in the Church reveals in himself a simplistic or puritanical mindset. The widespread use of light in worship reflects a truly human appreciation for the appropriateness of the symbol. The inability of someone to perceive this reveals a kind of blindness.

 

[happilycatholic]

Light, as the New Catholic Encyclopedia notes, signifies “joy, optimism, goodness, purity, beauty, festiveness, dignity and life. It is opposed to darkness, which signifies sadness, gloom, desolation, death, ignorance, error, and evil in general.” Christians also find in light the symbol of “truth, faith, wisdom, virtue, grace, divine life, charity, ardor of prayer, sacred presence and the beatific vision.”

Light is created by God. “Then God said ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light. God saw how good the light was” (Gen. 1:3-4). God manifests himself in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2). He dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16). He is light and in him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5). The Holy of Holies is lighted with the seven-branched candle stand (Lev. 24:2-4).

The early Church saw light in use in pagan rites. Lamps, candles, and fires were used to venerate the gods, the dead, and the emperor. The use was so pervasive that the Church was inhibited in using candles in its own rites. Christians attempted to avoid confusion and syncretism by confining candles to the practical matter of household illumination.

You can read more about this here.

A critic of candles in the Church reveals in himself a simplistic or puritanical mindset. The widespread use of light in worship reflects a truly human appreciation for the appropriateness of the symbol. The inability of someone to perceive this reveals a kind of blindness.

BRAVO! BRAVO!

 

[happilycatholic]

What was the name given to the first Christians? Was it catholic or Christian?

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

You seemed to understand in the last reply so I won’t bother.

I never doubted that Mary was the mother of Christ.

You certainly did when it was explained to you that “The Seat of Wisdom” is a metaphor for “Mother of Christ”.

True

 

[guanophore]

First we look to the Scriptures for any hint of candles providing some kind of “blessing”. I’m not aware of any.
How do candles provide or whatever for a blessing?

Blessings are not germaine to candles, or any other inanimate object. Blessing requires people. People can bless an object, and then the object itself can transmit God’s grace, if He so wishes. The grace comes from God, not the candle.

 

[guanophore]

Its not about caring per se but what is the basis for saying that Mary is the spouse of the HS since the Scriptures never mention it.

Well, we read them differently, don’t we?

When a person “overshadows” a woman and makes her pregnant He is her spouse. If not, then she is a fornicator, or an adulterer.

If its not found there then we need to see if we can find who first mentions this kind of thing and when. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

And the fact that you cannot “see” what we do in scripture does not mean it isn’t there!

 

[adstrinity]

Its not about caring per se but what is the basis for saying that Mary is the spouse of the HS since the Scriptures never mention it. If its not found there then we need to see if we can find who first mentions this kind of thing and when. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

Like “Sola Scriptura,” in the 1500s and Solo Scriptura in the 1800s.

Martin Luther recognized the BVM as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit…which, by the way, I can tell that you learning about Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit has really gotten to you. Not being antagonistic or vendictive when I say that, but, you and other Protestants keep mentioning that, meaning that it’s really sinking into your being. I hope you dwell on that so that Mary and Her Husband can touch your heart.

 

[guanophore]

Like “Sola Scriptura,” in the 1500s and Solo Scriptura in the 1800s.

Martin Luther recognized the BVM as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit…which, by the way, I can tell that you learning about Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit has really gotten to you. Not being antagonistic or vendictive when I say that, but, you and other Protestants keep mentioning that, meaning that it’s really sinking into your being. I hope you dwell on that so that Mary and Her Husband can touch your heart.

Most Protestants that find out the Reformers venerated Mary say it was because they were “contaminated with Romanism”.

 

[adstrinity]

Most Protestants that find out the Reformers venerated Mary say it was because they were “contaminated with Romanism”.

Because the Reformers had so much love for the Papist Macaral Snappers! Oh yes, of all the things to adhere to, the BVM is the most logical. Throw out Tradition, throw out the Sacraments, throw out the ability to lose salvation, but, KEEP MARY AS IS; this is absolutely true!!!

At least some today claim that while they don’t feel it plays a part in their salvation, they don’t care if people believe it one way or another.

Actually, all the early Reformers were men…I wonder if there was some psychological reason for them loving Mary so much…or at least if it could be spun that way.

 

[Good_Fella]

Lets see if its your problem to. Here are some titles from Titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
These are just a few titles given to her that supposedly reflect the truth about her:
Hope of Christians
Lady of Grace
Lady of Victory
Mary, Queen of Angels
Mary, Queen of Peace
Mary, Star of the Sea
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Our Lady, Gate of Heaven
Paradise Fenced Against the Serpent
Star That Bore the Sea
Suppliant for Sinners
Surpassing the Seraphim
Wedded to God

The Scriptures is the only place that tells anything about Mary. If you know the Scriptures you will know that not one of these titles is ever applied to her not even hinted at.

1. Mary, Hope of Christians

*Mary said, * “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 35
“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

1. Mary, Our Lady of Grace

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

1. Mary, Our Lady of Victory

“She will crush your head while you lie in wait at her heel.”
Genesis 3, 15
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Revelation 12, 1
I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.
2 Timothy 4, 7-8
“Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”
Luke 11, 28

1. Mary, Queen of Angels

Then he (King Solomon) sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right hand.
1 Kings 2,19
“Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will have no end.”
Luke 1, 31-33
They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11

1. Mary, Queen of Peace

“Please, please, God of my forefather, God of the heritage of Israel, Lord of heaven and earth, Creator of the waters, King of all you have created, hear my prayer!” During the life of Judith and for a long time after her death, no one again disturbed the Israelites.
Judith 9, 12,25
“From the day I was brought here till now, your handmaid has had no joy except in you, O Lord, God of Abraham. O God, more powerful than all, hear the voice of those in despair. Save us from the power of the wicked, and deliver me from my fear.”
Esther C, 29-30
“And you yourself a sword will pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

1. Mary, Star of the Sea

And the seventh time the youth reported, “There is a cloud as small as a man’s hand rising from the sea.”
*1 Kings 18, 44
*“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment ‘the sound of your greeting’ touched my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 43-44

To be continued