Hail Mary

[joseph_virgen]

it is better to keep things simple. Mary, created and protected from sin by God himself is our Mother-------our Mother. we give unto her respect, obedience and love. we know that she, as a created being, has limints to what she can and cannot do.

we remember that at the wedding in cana when the servents went with their problems to her, she told them to do as Jesus tells them. in truth, she did only what she could-----------Jesus did the rest.

this is our Mother, she takes our problems to her Son--------and he does the rest.

 

[Good_Fella]

I reflected a bit on #8 especially ‘Gate of Heaven’ but all I could think about was Jesus…isn’t He ‘the’ door of entrance into heaven ?

John 10:9 “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved…”

how can there be two doors? Remember John 10:1…

A garden bower in flower
Grew waiting for God’s hand:
Where no man ever trod,
This was the Gate of God.
The first bower was red -
Her lips which “welcome” said.
The second bower was blue -
Her eyes that led God through.
The third bower was white -
Her soul in God’s sight.
Three bowers of love
Now Christ from heaven above.
Lawrence Housman

There would be no Jesus (the Word made flesh) without Mary. In his infinite wisdom God ordained that it would be sufficient that his handmaid give her free consent to conceive and bear the Divine Messiah before he would come into the world. What God has willed from all eternity in his omniscience cannot be otherwise. God’s knowledge and will are consonant with each other, both constant and immutable.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it received its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word and the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has he been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

PAX :tanning:

 

[guanophore]

Came across this article where the pope is “commits the world to Mary” at this link zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

In this article it quotes the pope as saying "With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

What do you think? Do you consider yourself “ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection” from Mary?

Do look for Mary to protect you?

Yes! Our mama wears army boots! Her prayers are more spiritually powerful than any created being. This is one of the “great things” that God has done for Mary, and about which she praises Him. Her foot crushes the head of the serpent.

Yes, sometimes we are ungrateful and unworthy. We fail to live the life that produces fruit befitting repentance. I would be ashamed to tell the Mother of my Lord some of the things I have done, and so I should be. She calls us to a life of purity. Her Godly instruction echoes down through the centuries “do whatever He tells you”. when we fail in that, we have made ourselves unworthy and ungrateful of her sacrifice, and His. She stood at the foot of the cross, weeping inconsolibly as her torturned only Son poured out His blood for us, and yet, we sometimes feed heedlessly into sin.

 

[guanophore]

There is so much here that its hard to know where to begin. For starters Do any of these passages in context support these titles? Lets look at the first one you write:
"Mary, Wedded to God, More Holy than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the entire Angelic Hosts (Surpassing the Seraphim)

"And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

How does the HS overshadowing Mary in the conception of Jesus equate to being “Wedded to God”? If you look up the word “overshadow” in a Greek lexicon on this passage you will find nothing in its meaning about a marrige or being wedded.

Think about the context and the culture, ja4. God prepared the Jewish people to bring the Messiah into the world. The Jew believe that getting pregnant out of wedlock is fornication, and deserves death. The only other alternative is that Mary was a fornicator.

I know this is hard to understand for a person such as yourself who has such a deficient view of the Church. It would help if you could understand how God pledged Himself to Israel, and accused her of fornicating when she turned from Him. It would also help to review the passages in the NT where Paul compares marriage as a type of the wedding feast of the Lamb with the Church. This is a spiritual marriage, and Christ has pledged HImself to His Holy Bride, the Church. In the Annunciation, we see a forshadowing of this betrothal. In Pentecost, the Spirit overshadows the Church, and Christ is united with His bride.

Where in the NT do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing? Do they explicitedly confirm this anywhere in the NT?

Right next to the list of books that belong in the Bible, and the word Trinity in the glossary.

 

[Henning]

There would be no Jesus (the Word made flesh) without Mary. In his infinite wisdom God ordained that it would be sufficient that his handmaid give her free consent to conceive and bear the Divine Messiah before he would come into the world. What God has willed from all eternity in his omniscience cannot be otherwise. God’s knowledge and will are consonant with each other, both constant and immutable.

PAX :tanning:

But without Jesus, Mary would never have been…right?

Col 1:16-18
“For by Him (Jesus) were all things (including Mary) created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…all things (including Mary) were created by Him, and for Him…that in all things (including Mary) He might have the preeminence.”

no Jesus, no Mary (or anyone else for that matter). :compcoff:

 

[happilycatholic]

I just have a very basic observation I’d like to place out there.

If the definition of intercede is: to act between parties with a view to reconciling differences.

And if God sent His Only Begotten Son to reconcile us with God’s Will so that we could be with Him in Heaven, then doesn’t it make sense that God chose Mary to act between Him and us to bring our Savior to us with a view to Jesus being our reconciliation?

And if that is true, then why am I to believe that Mary was only to intercede for us once and then it would be idolatry and/or worship to ask her to intercede for us now?

I’m not trying to start a riot. I just really want to know how some folks can love the Lord and have such disdain for His Mother.

I would like those who have said that Mary is equal to an unwed Mother and an Idol and that she is “just a vessel and only human” to get on your knees and call on your Lord and say exactly what you’ve written in your posts here directly to Him in prayer. Can you do that?

 

[adstrinity]

But without Jesus, Mary would never have been…right?

Col 1:16-18
“For by Him (Jesus) were all things (including Mary) created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…all things (including Mary) were created by Him, and for Him…that in all things (including Mary) He might have the preeminence.”

no Jesus, no Mary (or anyone else for that matter). :compcoff:

Not so much…as stated. Without the Trinity there would be no Mary. Jesus didn’t yet have a name…unless you mean, would Mary have been created if the Second Person of the Trinity was going to become man…

Now I’ve just argued myself in a circle.

it is better to keep things simple. Mary, created and protected from sin by God himself is our Mother-------our Mother. we give unto her respect, obedience and love. we know that she, as a created being, has limints to what she can and cannot do.

we remember that at the wedding in cana when the servents went with their problems to her, she told them to do as Jesus tells them. in truth, she did only what she could-----------Jesus did the rest.

this is our Mother, she takes our problems to her Son--------and he does the rest.

The servents didn’t go to Her with their problems (or it is at least not written that they did), She merely observed the situation and took control of it.

 

[Good_Fella]

But without Jesus, Mary would never have been…right?

Col 1:16-18
“For by Him (Jesus) were all things (including Mary) created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…all things (including Mary) were created by Him, and for Him…that in all things (including Mary) He might have the preeminence.”

no Jesus, no Mary (or anyone else for that matter). :compcoff:

Are you a fatalist by any chance? You may as well argue " Without Jesus, the fall of man would never have been, right?" Please reconsider what you’re saying, for it borders on atheism. If you aren’t suggesting that God is the author of evil and disobedience, then you’re at least suggesting that man was never freely responsible for what we believe to be his fall from God’s grace (biological determinism). And if that’s the case, that God is the author of evil and sin, then man is merely a spectator in God’s plan of salvation with no moral responsibilty to freely cooperate with God’s grace in order to be saved. You’re actually twisting God’s plan of salvation by suggesting “If it weren’t for Jesus, then nobody would be eternally damned in Hell.” That’s espousing the pagan belief in fatalism and subscribing to the unbiblical Calvinistic doctrine of Double-Predestination

Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say, " We have fellowship with him," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 5-7

God is not the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14, 33

God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good.
Genesis 1, 31

God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1, 13

Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten of God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
1 John 3, 8-9

“You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”
Genesis 2, 16-17

A man’s own folly ruins his life, yet his heart rages against the Lord.
Proverbs 19, 3

Without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Hebrews 11, 6

“Remain faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life.”
Revelation 2, 10

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 35

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

*His mother said to the servers, * “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180)

No Jesus, no Satan, or anyone else for that matter?

PAX

 

[adstrinity]

Not so much…as stated. Without the Trinity there would be no Mary. Jesus didn’t yet have a name…unless you mean, would Mary have been created if the Second Person of the Trinity was not going to become man…

This is what I MEANT to say.

 

[Henning]

Are you a fatalist by any chance? You may as well argue " Without Jesus, the fall of man would never have been, right?" Please reconsider what you’re saying, for it borders on atheism. If you aren’t suggesting that God is the author of evil and disobedience, then you’re at least suggesting that man was never freely responsible for what we believe to be his fall from God’s grace (biological determinism). And if that’s the case, that God is the author of evil and sin, then man is merely a spectator in God’s plan of salvation with no moral responsibilty to freely cooperate with God’s grace in order to be saved. You’re actually twisting God’s plan of salvation by suggesting "If it weren’t for Jesus, then nobody would be eternally damned in Hell." That’s espousing the pagan belief in fatalism and subscribing to the unbiblical Calvinistic doctrine of Double-Predestination

uhh…what?

hmm…let me try to get this out another way…I guess what I meant was if you change the Col 1 verses to **without-Jesus **in the following way:
“**For without Him nothing would be created **that is in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible…nothing was created without Him…”
sort of like the John 1:3
“All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made”

What I wanted to emphasize was the second person of the Trinity’s creator functionings. Mary is a created thing (blessed, yet created) and therefore under His creator-ship.

H

 

[justasking4]

it is better to keep things simple. Mary, created and protected from sin by God himself is our Mother-------our Mother. we give unto her respect, obedience and love. we know that she, as a created being, has limints to what she can and cannot do.

we remember that at the wedding in cana when the servents went with their problems to her, she told them to do as Jesus tells them. in truth, she did only what she could-----------Jesus did the rest.

this is our Mother, she takes our problems to her Son--------and he does the rest.

Where do the Scriptures say Mary is your mother?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Where do the Scriptures say Mary is your mother?

Firstly, it’s logical. God is our Father and Jesus’ Father, Jesus is our Brother when God adopts us into His Family, Mary is Jesus’ Mother and our Mother. I knew that as a Protestant, ja4.

But if logic is too complicated for you:

Revelation 12:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[justasking4]

Pixie Dust;4335330]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the Scriptures say Mary is your mother?

Pixie Dust
Firstly, it’s logical. God is our Father and Jesus’ Father, Jesus is our Brother when God adopts us into His Family, Mary is Jesus’ Mother and our Mother. I knew that as a Protestant, ja4.

It may sound logical but its not true. There is no Scripture to support that Mary is your mother. Jesus never taught that His mother was to be your mother.

But if logic is too complicated for you:

Revelation 12:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where in the gospels do we find these kinds of details on the life of Mary? Take verse 16 above. Where is this incident mentioned in her life that is recorded in the gospels?

 

[adstrinity]

It may sound logical but its not true. There is no Scripture to support that Mary is your mother. Jesus never taught that His mother was to be your mother.

Mary said to both Juan Diego and St. Therese (I think) that she was their Mother.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The scripture that supports taking Mary as our mother is in the gospel of John 19:27.

I suppose you believe the fact that the disciple whom Jesus loved took his mother to his home in obedience to Jesus at the foot of the cross was purely a housekeeping detail that was randomly inserted into the gospel.

Mary is very present in scripture. The focus is not on her life because she does not wish the focus to be on her. She wishes the focus to be on her Savior, and the Savior of all mankind, her Son.

She begins the gospel narrative as she is hailed by the angel for being in a perpetual state of grace prior to the Incarnation. She is present at the Lord’s humble birth as the caregiver of God. She is present in the temple as the prophecy is spoken that a sword will pierce her heart to reveal the thoughts of many. She intercedes for the bride and bridegroom as Jesus performs his first miracle. She searches for him when he is lost as a 12-year old, teaching us to have faith in Jesus’ place in history even when we are in the midst of panic. She is at the foot of the cross at his death. She is in the upper room with the Apostles at the coming of the Hoy Spirit.

 

[justasking4]

Mary said to both Juan Diego and St. Therese (I think) that she was their Mother.

How do you know if this was truly Mary and not something else? Srcipture warns in 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. We should never accept anything without first testing these things.
What was the message to Juan Diego?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I was listening to a Catholic radio station near Portland, OR today. They actually had a segment from Catholic Answers on the station. I also noticed that this particular station is very centered on Mary. They kept asking Mary to intercede for them to Jesus. They also kept playing chants of Hail Mary prayers. I just don’t get it? Why center so much on Mary as compared to Christ Jesus? I can’t find such deep devotions to Mary in the Bible to validate this kind of attention. Would anybody give me a reason to shift my attention and love from our Triune God to Mary?

kbvm.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

It may be easier to understand if one thinks of the BVM as the phenomenological equivalent, in “Catholic” types of Christianity, to the Bible in “Evangelical” types of Christianity. IOW, she is, like the Bible, the supreme created focus, under Christ, of religious interest. The Bible & the BVM have analogous positions.​

It’s difficult to compare Catholicism with Evangelicalism in a helpful way, because their respective ***phenomenological structures ***differ so much. They have many “ingredients” in common: both are Trinitarian forms of Christianity, & their Trinitarian theisms are identical: so these can be usefully & helpfully compared. OTOH, they have different understandings of Revelation - so these are difficult to compare, unless one knows one’s way around both. Unless one does, there is some danger of seeing likeness where there is dissimilarity (& vice versa).

As to Mary in relation to Jesus Christ:

Does one think of her as “contained in” Him - or, as “separate from” Him ? ISTM that St. Paul’s theological vision requires us to see her as entirely “in Christ”: not as abolished by Him, but as made possible, actual, & real only because of Him. IOW - it is because He is the only Real Actor in salvation, that anything is at all: including us, & all other creatures, her included.

If she is “separate from” Him, then we have problems. But she is not, nor can she be, as there are no creatures, nor anything at all, “outside” Christ. His Absoluteness, is what allows anything that is not-God to exist at all. This is where monergism is so helpful.

IOW - how do we visualise her & Him ? Wrong answer: as independent & autonomous. This is why synergism is impossible, & why grace is all.

Any good to you ?

 

[adstrinity]

How do you know if this was truly Mary and not something else? Srcipture warns in 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. We should never accept anything without first testing these things.
What was the message to Juan Diego?

We know this was truly Mary and not something else because the Church confirmed this was legit and not a demon’s impersination of the BVM.

I encourage everybody to look up the messge to Juan Diego.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is this offical Catholic teaching? This sounds a lot like the Mormon concept of God if i’m not mistaken.

Yuk ​

It isn’t (Thank God…)

Why is it so difficult for some people to realise that the Incarnation is not an act of Divine bonking, but a Divine act without the secondary causation otherwise involved in the process of generation ? All sons of women are begotten by men - Jesus is the exception: St. Joseph is bypassed, & the effect of human begetting comes about, as usual, through the Spirit of life. In all other begetting, the Spirit Who gives life works by means of creaturely begetting - not here. That is the Jewish approach: the Virginal Conception of Jesus can’t be understood without it; least of all if it is thought of as a sexual act - that is exactly what it is not.

 

[justasking4]

Yuk ​

It isn’t (Thank God…)

Why is it so difficult for some people to realise that the Incarnation is not an act of Divine bonking, but a Divine act without the secondary causation otherwise involved in the process of generation ? All sons of women are begotten by men - Jesus is the exception: St. Joseph is bypassed, & the effect of human begetting comes about, as usual, through the Spirit of life. In all other begetting, the Spirit Who gives life works by means of creaturely begetting - not here. That is the Jewish approach: the Virginal Conception of Jesus can’t be understood without it; least of all if it is thought of as a sexual act - that is exactly what it is not.

So you believe it was not a sexual act?

If not a sexual act then it would have no marriage ramifications. Correct?