Hail Mary

[AlegreFe]

Back in my quasi-Protestant days (was raised Presbyterian, although by “raised” I mean we went there only on Sundays, left as soon as we had chance to, never read the Bible, never prayed as a family, and never ever talked about God, etc. This is, of course, not in any way a general portrait of Presbies, only of my particular family ) I always wondered why we trotted out poor Mary just for Christmas, then ignored her for the rest of the year. It seemed odd to me, even as a kid, that she would be so important for one day, then, job done, packed away.

When I got older, and my morally relative existance hit teenage rebellion, I viewed the Protestant teachings I’d been exposed to (and again, please read the above disclaimer of Protestant teachings I had been exposed to- i.e.: almost none) as something ominously sexist. Mary was important only until her job as incubator for the Incarnation was done. That’s one of the first things that led me to examine Catholic teachings. Everyone I knew talked about Catholicism as being so horrible to women, yet it was the only form of Christianity that I knew of that honored Mary as
a) independent thinker (the Fiat was all about Free Will, after all)
b) brave enough to resist peer pressure and cultural norms (unwed mother in a time of stoning? Yikes!)
c) devoted to the family, and embracing the traditional roles of women, while still:
d) showing a bit of, dare I say, spunk? Check out the wedding at Cana- here’s a woman who, to some degree, knows the Divine nature of her Son, and still, kinda sorta (no disrespect here intended), bullies him in the way only moms can- “Do whatever He tells you to”. Talk about putting someone on the spot!

Not to mention the utter strength she shows in the face of unspeakable tragedy.

Anyway, it was meditation on Mary and her role in the life of Jesus that not only brought me back to Him (after chucking Him immediately upon entering college), but ultimately, to His Church itself.

So I guess it was my honoring Mary (or at least analysing her role in a strictly Biblical sense) that brought me into communion with her Son. Which is, really, her raison d’etre.

Cheers,
Cari

p.s.
Not, of course, saying that Protestants who honor her will “cross the Tiber”, as it were. 'Cause I can see my above testimony scaring some off. Which isn’t what I intend to do. I just mean that reading the Biblical accounts of Our Lady should give everyone, Protestant or Catholic, reason to honor her.

Wow, I love your story! Welcome Home!

I love your “analysis” of the Bible accounts of Mary.
Mary loves her Son Jesus that much! If anyone thinks of Mary as she is presented in Scripture and starts reflecting on her life as she was so close to Jesus Christ, she will indeed help in bringing that person Home to her Son’s Church. :yup:
I say “help” because we all know that it is the Holy Spirit that will do that. But we Catholics know who the Holy Spirit is in terms of Mary! Whenever we pray to Mary (ask for her intercession), the Holy Spirit is right there with her!! Where ever the Holy Spirit is, there is Jesus Christ and also there is God the Father. Jesus and Mary will never be separated just as the one Triune God can never be separated.

 

[gcnuss]

guanophore,

Can you explain this to me? I do not understand why Protestants have this attitude about Mary…Why would Lutherans run you out of town if you prayed these verses, but not other verses? We often take verses for prayers from all parts of the Bible. Why are these so objectionable? Don’t they know that Luther was devoted to Mary? Thanks for your forthright sharing…

There is, sadly, a deep-seated belief among some Lutherans that anything they deem to be “too Catholic” must be rejected. This certainly did not begin with Luther for, as you note, he maintained a life-long devotion to Mary, even as he rejected what he viewed as excesses in Marian devotion.

I would say that there is a difference between respect for Mary and devotion to Mary. Most people I know respect Mary as the mother of Jesus – I’ve never heard anyone complain because she is part of the Nativity nor does anyone object to the account of her at the foot of the cross. They respect here as a mother and as one who faced the most horrible of events, the crucifixion of her son. Their difficulty comes with what they perceive as worship of Mary, even though that is a misperception according to my understanding of Catholic teaching…

 

[Cardinalsong]

**Hi Guanophore

Hm…my question is what makes you think i don’t believe Catholics are Christians?? Is there any part in my post mentioned that Catholic are not Christian?? Then with all your respect, please point that out to me. **

I think this is why one might think you don’t believe Catholics are Christian:

Non CC does have a little misunderstanding, is becoz Catholic spend 10% intercede to Mary and the rest to God. But Christian rather spend 100% praying to God solely. So i understand where Mary stands in term of the Catholic

This may be misconstrued as you thinking Catholics are not Christians. It looks as though only Christians and not Catholics pray 100% to God so Catholics can’t possibly be Christian if only doing a 90/10 prayer (90% to God 10% to Mary and/or saints).

I don’t know if you actually meant to say that or not. Electronic communication isn’t the greatest way to convey one’s thoughts

 

[Allweather]

I would say that there is a difference between respect for Mary and devotion to Mary. Most people I know respect Mary as the mother of Jesus – I’ve never heard anyone complain because she is part of the Nativity nor does anyone object to the account of her at the foot of the cross. They respect here as a mother and as one who faced the most horrible of events, the crucifixion of her son. Their difficulty comes with what they perceive as worship of Mary, even though that is a misperception according to my understanding of Catholic teaching…

It seems to me that the major dividing line between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics see Mary as having a continuing, active function as the Christ-bearer. Protestants don’t see her as active. For most of them, she is someone who once was, but is no more: A great figure in salvation history, the mother of Jesus, a fine person, but not on-scene for us today.

Catholics have her in their lives. Far from worshipping her, we acknowledge her active work in drawing us to Jesus. She shows us the incarnate God, because after all, without Mary there is no incarnation. She knows all the details, and when we go to Jesus through Mary, as we must, because that is how God designed it, then we get the whole enchilada, so to speak. Mary is often described as a “short-cut” to Jesus, and I must say that, as my devotion to her has grown, so has my closeness to Our Lord. Mary never points to herself, but is always directing our attention to her son.

 

[Cardinalsong]

It seems to me that the major dividing line between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics see Mary as having a continuing, active function as the Christ-bearer. Protestants don’t see her as active. For most of them, she is someone who once was, but is no more: A great figure in salvation history, the mother of Jesus, a fine person, but not on-scene for us today.

Catholics have her in their lives. Far from worshipping her, we acknowledge her active work in drawing us to Jesus. She shows us the incarnate God, because after all, without Mary there is no incarnation. She knows all the details, and when we go to Jesus through Mary, as we must, because that is how God designed it, then we get the whole enchilada, so to speak. Mary is often described as a “short-cut” to Jesus, and I must say that, as my devotion to her has grown, so has my closeness to Our Lord. Mary never points to herself, but is always directing our attention to her son.

(Especially the sentence in bold)

 

[cubalibre]

Remember Jesus’ words on the cross:
John 19:26 -
***When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” *** and
John 19:27 **Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. **
Mary is our spiritual mother.
This is futher illustrated in Revelations 12:17
**Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
**

We are the rest of her offspring who continue to keep God’s commandment and continue to call her blessed.

 

[lak611]

Happy Gal,

I’m not Roman Catholic, I’m Lutheran, and I say the full-fledged council of Trent Hail Mary when praying the rosary. This is a tricky issue for protestants because they don’t recognize a difference between “praying to” and “asking to pray for.” Even the vast majority of Lutherans agree with you about the Hail Mary, but some of us have found the truth in the Eastern Orthodox understanding of the communion of saints.

How about this train of purely biblical reasoning using the Theotokos to start with…just for fun. .

1. She is called blessed in the Magnificat in St. Luke’s Gospel.
2. St. Paul constantly mentions praying for in the Spirit at all times (Ephesians 6).
3. There is an Old Testament prohibition against praying to the dead, but those who are alive in Christ are not dead!
4. No where in Scripture are we told that you stop praying when you die on earth. In fact, Revelation 5:8 is a pretty clear indication that the saints in heaven pray for us on earth (the 24 elders are symbolic of the Old Testament patriarchs and New Testament Apostles - i.e. those who are in Heaven from before and after Christ)!

I hope this helps somewhat with a purely biblical reasoning that leads to asking the saints to “intercede” for us. We don’t pray TO them, because that is a form of worship that God alone deserves, but we ask them through that same Holy Spirit that we all sahre to pray for us just as I would ask my friend on Sunday to pray for me.

Pax Christi,

Chris Heren

I agree. I am a Catholic, and I do not pray to the saints (Mary included because she is a saint). I pray asking for Mary’s intercession (or St. Joseph, St. Paul, St. John, etc.). The saints in heaven are more alive than we are because they have been perfected and no longer have any sins/temptations burdening them. So they can help us by their prayers even more than our family members and friends who are still working out their salvation on this earth. I need all the help I can get, so I definitely turn to all my resources to help pray for me (I’ll pray directly to God, I’ll ask my family/friends alive right now to pray for me, and I’ll ask my friends in heaven [the saints] to pray for me also. The more people I have to pray for me, the better!

 

[AlegreFe]

I agree. I am a Catholic, and I do not pray to the saints (Mary included because she is a saint). I pray asking for Mary’s intercession (or St. Joseph, St. Paul, St. John, etc.). The saints in heaven are more alive than we are because they have been perfected and no longer have any sins/temptations burdening them. So they can help us by their prayers even more than our family members and friends who are still working out their salvation on this earth. I need all the help I can get, so I definitely turn to all my resources to help pray for me (I’ll pray directly to God, I’ll ask my family/friends alive right now to pray for me, and I’ll ask my friends in heaven [the saints] to pray for me also. The more people I have to pray for me, the better!

(emphasis added)

We do pray to Saints as Catholics. Just not in the way that Protestants think we do. That phrase “pray to” does not mean “to Worship” as many Protestants think that it means. It just means that we are asking for a Saint’s intercession. The way that Catholics see “pray to” does not mean “to worship.”

The word “pray” as it is described in the dictionary is to address earnest request to somebody We are “earnestly requesting” that they pray for us to God.

Praying to the Saints

 

[Will_Pick]

I don’t honor, since i’m not a Catholic, but i respect her for she is the mother our God.

Non catholics just do not understand any thing about Mary ,For all non-catholics please remember that Catholis do not Worship Mary

 

[guanophore]

Non catholics just do not understand any thing about Mary ,For all non-catholics please remember that Catholis do not Worship Mary

Well, there is a post just above written by someone who says they are catholic, who states she does not pray to Mary or the Saints, then describes how she prays to Mary and the Saints, so I think the difficulty is not just among Protestants!

 

[Fuerza]

Well, there is a post just above written by someone who says they are catholic, who states she does not pray to Mary or the Saints, then describes how she prays to Mary and the Saints, so I think the difficulty is not just among Protestants!

If you are referring to lak611’s post, she’s simply making a point that she does not pray “to” the saints in the manner that protestants tend to think we do (ie worshipping them). Praying is simply asking for intercession as well as showing respect. Lak should feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Abira]

hi,

there’s some big generalisations being thrown about lol…but good thread mostly

I’m a protestant, and struggled majorly with the whole Mary part of the Catholic church. I felt…and still feel wrong with it in myself as a reaction against the Catholic church as I was brought up to see it.

right now I am reading… Mary: a Catholic-Evangelical dialogue

and both arguments are well argued and in a friendly way. back to the OP:

I pray the rosary somtimes. Sometimes as it stands although to start with I felt so strongly that I couldn’t bare to say the words that I used the adaptation…

Son of Mary, Son of the living God. Have mercy on us sinners now and at the hour of our death…

and I still would never pray the massive Mary prayer at the end… it feels very wrong to me, although the more I listen and read etc the less awkward it feels… I think there has to be a happy medium.

The ‘rejection’ (just to pick a word badly I know) of Mary by the protestant church is an overeaction against what they see as a Catholic overemphasis on Mary.

 

[guanophore]

If you are referring to lak611’s post, she’s simply making a point that she does not pray “to” the saints in the manner that protestants tend to think we do (ie worshipping them). Praying is simply asking for intercession as well as showing respect. Lak should feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I understand that, and I agree. I took it that way too. But, if those of us that understand that petition does not mean worship don’t educate people differently, it will only continue the misunderstandings. I think all of us know SOMEONE who has a pious life, is a prayer warrior, and knows the Lord. All of us tend to call upon that person and “pray” or petition them to intercede for us. It is just a matter of semantics when it comes to asking the intercession of the Saints.

 

[guanophore]

For all Christians, we believe that Mary is blessed and we should honor Her for that. Have you ever said something to honor her. For instance, saying the partial Hail Mary prayer that Catholic prays:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among woman, blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.

This is a GREAT idea! It is totally scriptural, and does not contain a petition, which seems to be where a lot of folks get hung up.

 

[deb216]

When my Protestant friend discovered that she had cancer, she immediately called her loved ones. She asked them to pray for her. She could have taken her petition to God. He would have heard her, but she asked for extra prayers anyways. It didn’t diminish her love of God or her faith in Him.

When I am in trouble or need extra help, I ask for prayers. I know that I can take my petition to God. Even though I know that He will hear me, I still ask for extra prayers. It does not diminish my love for God or my faith in Him.

It is neither the size of our difficulties nor the size of our faith that separates my friend and I. It is the size of our prayer circles. She calls upon her family and friends for help. I call upon my family, my friends and the saints.

If asking for prayers is a form of worship, my friend owes me tithes. She asked for prayers and I interceded on her behalf.

Really, can there ever be a better prayer warrior than the Blessed Mother? NO! Knowing that she will pray for me is comforting. All I have to do is ask.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I don’t honor, since i’m not a Catholic, but i respect her for she is the mother our God.

So, happygal, do you honor your father and your mother?

Here in California, I always have to address judicial officers of the court as “Your Honor.”

Should I say something else, like “Your Respectfulness”?

 

[water]

hi,

there’s some big generalisations being thrown about lol…but good thread mostly

I’m a protestant, and struggled majorly with the whole Mary part of the Catholic church. I felt…and still feel wrong with it in myself as a reaction against the Catholic church as I was brought up to see it.
…

I pray the rosary somtimes. Sometimes as it stands although to start with I felt so strongly that I couldn’t bare to say the words that I used the adaptation…
…

Abira, thank you for replying and I am very happy to know that you pray the rosary sometimes although you have some changes in the word. It is not a matter at this point. The main point is that you believe in the intercession of Saints, and that is a very huge step you have made.

Keep praying the rosary! :angel1:

 

[JonathanKinsman]

If you think that’s bad most of the people here don’t even include the Orthodox.

Ah, shucks Montalban, we like you guys!

It’s just that you guys won’t admit that you’re really Catholics like us and that a little schism every now and then is not worth the mutal anathemas.

filioque, shmilioque.

“You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to,
let’s call the whole thing off!”

Pax Christi

 

[JonathanKinsman]

. I think all of us know SOMEONE who has a pious life, is a prayer warrior, and knows the Lord.

AH AH AH AH!!!

“Prayer Warrior”! guanaphore, please! If words are such a big deal to you vis-a-vis the Catholic Church, then please avoid using such trite “feel-goodisms” as “prayer warrior.”

And HOW do you determine someone has lead a “pious life”?

Is that in the Bible, too?

I tend to think of the cliche of someone who “knows the Lord” in the same vein as “Jesus is my personal Savior:” “Darn, He is? I was hoping to get on His list!”

These are weasel words, with all meaning sucked out of them (like a weasel sucks an egg). And with the ease and alacrity with which they are tossed around, they have all the appeal of sports’ cliches (“Ya gotta give 110%” “If we keep our heads in the game then momentum is with us”)

We are to spread the Good News of salvation and life after death, not to brag to our peers that we are “saved.” :dancing:

Unless of course, it is to goad Catholics into “an altar experience.”

Sounds so 80ish. Come to jazzercize with Jesus! Let the Lord be your personal Trainer!

Maybe true ecumenicalism [is this a word?] will only come about when non-Catholics have to give up some of THEIR preferred words and phrases!

As for us Catholics, Mother of God is biblical. So is “Holy Mary” and “pray for us sinners.”

Besides, what were those bowls of petitions doing in Revelation, anyway??

 

[Abira]

Abira, thank you for replying and I am very happy to know that you pray the rosary sometimes although you have some changes in the word. It is not a matter at this point. The main point is that you believe in the intercession of Saints, and that is a very huge step you have made.

Keep praying the rosary! :angel1:

HI Water

Yeah, that was a really really hard step for me. I almost felt like I’d be doing something equivilant to…I don’t know…praying to an idol or something. I use quite an emotive example as I felt kinda strongly about it.

The whole Hail Mary Rosary came about when I lost my faith and didn’t really have anything to say when I prayed, so I stopped praying. I find that by praying the Rosary I can still pray even though I sometimes have nothing to say. It’s a secret thing though lol, I’d never let my parents know I prayed it for example!

I think it could really help a few people but they’re put off it by the petition to Mary… I would never have prayed it unless I’d searched out some kind of Anglican ammendment.

Take care, S