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CherryBomb
Guest
Exactly.
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AnIrishCatholic
Guest
In all honesty i don’t know of anyone who slaughters animals to a sun god, or murders virgins for the new moon or what ever. I do find much of the opposition to those pagan folks is usually by people who have a problem with faith themselves and their own sense of religion or faith is lacking and thus the lashing out is an express of desperation on people who deserve respect.
I know people who condem all around them, but it’s not out of a sense of piety but out of the lack of faith they maintain.
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CherryBomb
Guest
I’m so tired of seeing that excuse in religious discussions. Someone can dissent without being weak in their own faith. It’s nothing but a convenient way to shut down a conversation that’s not going your way.
People are free to do what they want. They’re also free to disagree, even strongly, with others.
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Apherius
Guest
To this I stongly agree.
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Ahimsa
Guest
I see your point. But if a Pagan equates Mary to, say, Persephone, then why should that cause consternation among Christians? Following this logic, Jews should be continually and openly outraged that Christians equated a fellow Jew with the God of Abraham. I’m sure some Jews are indeed outraged, but what would be the benefit? St. Paul equated the Athenians’ “Unknown God” to the God of the Bible. Should the Athenians have strung him up? When Africans slaves from Nigeria were taken to Cuba, one way to get them inside the Church was to allow them to equate various Catholic saints to various African Orishas, or deities.
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AnIrishCatholic
Guest
I know people who are very powerfully spiritual both in regard to being Catholic and non Catholic, I would never tell them that their faith is wrong or claptrap, faith is experience and every experience is a personal one for each person, and nobody has the right to condem the faith of others. To dissent a religion is another kettle of fish, as religions are man made and what is man made can be man unmade
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AnIrishCatholic
Guest
Well said! I find people get too hung up on technicalities.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
This reminds me of when I first read wiccan Margot Adler’s Drawing Down the Moon- some 14 years ago-I had returned to the faith of Christianity but hadnt yet return back to the Catholic Church. Anyway, Adler gave the account a real ecclectic “solitary” wiccan (“Sharon Devlin” was the psuedonym Adler gave her) who was into drugs and/or sex magick–and occasionaly going to a Catholic Mass and taking the Eucharist for “the power”
Not yet being reconcilled to the Church, but realizing a bit what the church taught, you couldnt believe how angry I was with the blatant blasphemous disrespect–or maybe you can.
The “make it up as you go along” nature of way too many neo-pagans leads to this, IMO
Not yet being reconcilled to the Church, but realizing a bit what the church taught, you couldnt believe how angry I was with the blatant blasphemous disrespect–or maybe you can.
The “make it up as you go along” nature of way too many neo-pagans leads to this, IMO
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
Very true. And the assumption of other religion’s deities (chose that word to encompass more than Christianity) is disrespectful to those religions.
I am still friends with some of the pagans/witches I was friends with when I was a Witch. They honor the general God and Goddess so as not to appropriate deities from other religions.
When I told them I was returning to Catholicism- they pointed out the importance of holding to and believing all the tenets of my chosen religion, and not to “steal” from others.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
There is a difference between equating Persephone with Mary and equating the Jewish God with Jesus. Persephone is a pagan goddess, and paganism by nature is opposed to Christianity, because the former does not recognize the foundation of Christianity, which is belief in One True God, as opposed to many. Christianity is completely monotheistic and is therefore by nature irreconcilable with polytheism. So any attempt to equate Mary witha pagan goddess is opposed to Christianity, because Christianity has no goddess or god apart from God.
As far as Jesus is concerned, He proclaimed Himself to be the Messiah that the Jews already believed in, and the Gospels show that He fit the bill - He fulfilled all the prophecies that were expected by the Jews of the Messiah. He also did not challenge the monotheism of Judaism, but rather said that He is the one God the Jews believe in. So here we’re equating God (Jesus) with God (Jewish God), not a goddess (Persephone) with a Saint (Mary). Thus Jesus was not directly trampling on any Jewish beliefs about God.
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Publisher
Guest
As I understand, it’s not “make it up as you go along” but a very detailed understanding…all religious type of “worship” is “magic” and therefore indued with “power”…faith is power…ritual raises “power”…so, the very act of ritual and the “intent” of those involved is a source of the power.
Example, meditating Catholic nuns and monks show similar brain patterns as do Buddhist monks and nuns as they meditate…
I don’t necessarily agree with using other religious images to “invoke power” for my own…tradition…but it’s not “make it up” it does have a reasoning behind it…one I don’t agree with…but I’m not pagan.
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Publisher
Guest
One of the problems in trying to understand other’s religious views is we tend to “talk past” one another…we seek to impose our definitions and ideas on totally foreign concepts. I can understand how a pagan could equate the many aspects of the One Eternal Source to “Gods and Goddesses”…I don’t have to agree with it…but I can seek to understand where they are coming from to better dialog and gain mutual understanding…who knows perhaps the deficiencies they saw in Christianity in the first place may be answered…and because of a more loving witness to the Grace and Mercy of the One True God, they may see their way to return…
Sometimes I think we are more like Jonah…we don’t want them to return…we don’t want them to come back…they deserve wrath…plus it makes us feel better to know we’re right.
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cheddarsox
Guest
I’m a pantheist, and I hang with pagans a lot. This exact subject came up on one of the pagan forums I belong to a few months back. A crafter there was creating pagan rosaries with pagan godesses on them. I told her that I thought it was disrespectful, since the rosary was obviously based on the Catholic rosary, same layout etc. And that it seemed to be purposely taking something created and dedicated by another faith and using it in a way contray to their beliefs.
I think it is fine to make prayer beads, statues, etc to fit one;s own faith, but not to take from another faith and use an item for one’s own ends…that does feel disrespectful to me.
Goddess prayer beads are cool, but why model them on the rosary and call them a rosary? That just feels like disrespect to me.
I think it is good for each faith to work to create it’s own articles and practices. It is honest, respectful and a worthy investment of energy.
Building a religion takes time, practice, and people living the faith. People need to be patient and allow their faith to grow organically, not just borrow willy nilly from older faiths in order to have everything instantly and conveniently. Holy days, and practices arise as people need them and recognize them. That is part of the process.
I think religions do go through akward stages though, when they are a mish mosh of what one knows, what one thinks is cool from another faith, and what one imagines will work for one’s own faith. And…I guess this sort of borrowing is probably one of the growing pains. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and most of the time this is done with sincerety, and not aiming to disrespect.
Still, when we can see that such a use is considered disrespectful by the faith we are borrowing from…we might want to back off.
Anyway, that’s how I feel.
I’d never make a good eclectic. I think it is good to commit to something, to find a path and grow in it.
I can understand both sides of the situation, but I tend to err on the side of “leave other faith’s practices alone, and do the footwork yourself.”
cheddar
I think it is fine to make prayer beads, statues, etc to fit one;s own faith, but not to take from another faith and use an item for one’s own ends…that does feel disrespectful to me.
Goddess prayer beads are cool, but why model them on the rosary and call them a rosary? That just feels like disrespect to me.
I think it is good for each faith to work to create it’s own articles and practices. It is honest, respectful and a worthy investment of energy.
Building a religion takes time, practice, and people living the faith. People need to be patient and allow their faith to grow organically, not just borrow willy nilly from older faiths in order to have everything instantly and conveniently. Holy days, and practices arise as people need them and recognize them. That is part of the process.
I think religions do go through akward stages though, when they are a mish mosh of what one knows, what one thinks is cool from another faith, and what one imagines will work for one’s own faith. And…I guess this sort of borrowing is probably one of the growing pains. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and most of the time this is done with sincerety, and not aiming to disrespect.
Still, when we can see that such a use is considered disrespectful by the faith we are borrowing from…we might want to back off.
Anyway, that’s how I feel.
I’d never make a good eclectic. I think it is good to commit to something, to find a path and grow in it.
I can understand both sides of the situation, but I tend to err on the side of “leave other faith’s practices alone, and do the footwork yourself.”
cheddar
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KarenNC
Guest
Stare away
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KarenNC
Guest
That would seem to imply that you believe “current Pagan practice” would want to “mirror its antecedents in both scope and brutality.” Societal mores change, and religious practices change along with them, else modern Christians would be holding slaves, having multiple wives, and many other things that are no longer considered acceptable by modern society.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
If I may ask, when exactly did Christians have multiple wives?
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Catholic_Hammer
Guest
Let it also be known that the Church has ALWAYS opposed chattel slavery.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Please re-read my post.Pagan deity? Do you mean Pagan God? Isn’t that against a something in the Bible?
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
And that is what I meant by the post you rolled your eyes at. If it was unclear I’m sorry.
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faelpsanfeel
Guest
Upon reflection, I think I have a slightly new perspective of this.
Assume that a hypothetical someone is really stupid. He was once a Pagan and he possesses a ritual blade (I forget what you call it,) a wand and an alter with all kinds of incense and whatever else your typical neo-pagan keeps around. What if, one day, this person just happens to hear some quote from the Bible, or he meets a Catholic who really inspires him. Would it be wrong if he inserted Jesus’ name into his (to our ears) outlandish prayers, or decided to replace “the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram” with “the lesser banishing ritual of the cross?” What if he truly felt inspired by Christ, but sincerely knew of no other way to express these newfound sentiments? Remember that this person is really stupid, and simply does not know any better. Could you really blame him?
Assume that a hypothetical someone is really stupid. He was once a Pagan and he possesses a ritual blade (I forget what you call it,) a wand and an alter with all kinds of incense and whatever else your typical neo-pagan keeps around. What if, one day, this person just happens to hear some quote from the Bible, or he meets a Catholic who really inspires him. Would it be wrong if he inserted Jesus’ name into his (to our ears) outlandish prayers, or decided to replace “the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram” with “the lesser banishing ritual of the cross?” What if he truly felt inspired by Christ, but sincerely knew of no other way to express these newfound sentiments? Remember that this person is really stupid, and simply does not know any better. Could you really blame him?
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