Haiti Earthquake: Did God send it?

[Bookcat]

Allow me to highlight the opperative words and phrases:

Painful
Mysterious
No quick [satisfying] answer
Terrible mystery

There’s a lot of mumbojumbo that doesn’t answer our question of evil so much as it does point us to the fluffier, more romantic aspects of Christianity. The other part of it suggests that it is something terrible, unknown, and decidedly unknown until we meet (if we meet) God (if there’s God) face-to-face. It’s an evasion of an answer, not an answer itself.

So God is decidedly responsible, because he willed it. He specifically willed the destruction of much of Haiti by this earthquake because he willed the world to be in a state of journeying. Since God’s perfect world was willed to have components of construction and destruction for a state of journeying, shall we praise God for this horror?

Okay, so God is the established culprit for the disaster. Thankyou for making this clear. Now you’ve attested that it is unknown to us why this is the case. Allow me to interject: the reason we know that good things happen (and certainly they are not called mysteries) is because God wants good things for his children. We wonder why bad things happen because it doesn’t seem consistent with our claim for God, that he is either provident in the ways we would imagine, or omni-benevolent. I agree; it is a great difficulty that raises a lot of questions about God.

One would think, for the good of his children’s faiths, God would have made the problem of evil a point of revelation. Indeed He did! The bible says that God acts to his own whims according to his desire for grace or thirst for wrath.

---

So from here, let’s decide a couple things:

1. Why does God desire the world to be in a state of journeying (which includes destruction)?
2. Why should we suppose that God wants the world in a state of journeying (where is the source for this belief)?

Sir, I am afraid you are not reading the passage correctly …nor theology etc

but thankfully others can read it for themselves…

 

[OraLabora]

It depends on whose perception you’re drawing on. You might be tempted to say that we can’t know Good without knowing Evil. Then I’d say, “Why must we know Goodness, in order that we might know evil. If God had created only the former, then it would not matter if we could conceptualize evil; the world would be free of pain.” And then you might say “How can we establish our goodness if there aren’t any evil alternatives?” And of course my argument is that we shouldn’t have to establish our goodness; God should have made us well, rather than ill - too ill for most to merit the salvation God is dangling in front of us, just out of reach.

Whatever you’re getting at (it really could be a number of things), you’re assuming that Good and Evil are important distinctions. I would agree, only because they exist, but I don’t necessarily think they should exist under an omni-benevolent dictatorship. But I digress; what is it you’d like to say about the disaster in Haiti regarding good and evil?

ISTM that to be able to do good, we have to be able to discern good from evil. Therefore for any kind of free will to exist, good and evil must coexist. And to love God, we need to choose God which is in essence what we do when we choose good over evil. All this, of course, being a consequence of the Fall, the first moment we were presented by that choice, and we made the wrong one.

If God chose a more “in your face” presence, made our world perfect, and free from evil, we could no longer freely chose to love God. Our relationship to God would be that of master/slave, or that of a dog to its master, because He would have proved His existence. You are no longer loving Him by choice, which is at the heart of the concept we know as faith. We don’t love Him because we know for certain He is God. We love Him because we have faith that He is God, and that He is worthy of our love.

The presence of God must necessarily remain veiled in order to choose Him freely. It isn’t a shotgun wedding, it’s a wedding of desire, a desire to enter into communion with Him. A communion freely chosen, out of love, not out of pure fear.

You wouldn’t want your spouse to love you just because you provide her with financial security that she has become dependent on. You want her to love you freely because she chose you on the strength of your character and her desire to be your partner. God wants that same choice, He doesn’t want an imperfect love of dependency, He wants a freely chosen love of desire.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It depends on whose perception you’re drawing on. You might be tempted to say that we can’t know Good without knowing Evil. Then I’d say, “Why must we know Goodness, in order that we might know evil. If God had created only the former, then it would not matter if we could conceptualize evil; the world would be free of pain.” And then you might say “How can we establish our goodness if there aren’t any evil alternatives?” And of course my argument is that we shouldn’t have to establish our goodness; God should have made us well, rather than ill - too ill for most to merit the salvation God is dangling in front of us, just out of reach.

Whatever you’re getting at (it really could be a number of things), you’re assuming that Good and Evil are important distinctions. I would agree, only because they exist, but I don’t necessarily think they should exist under an omni-benevolent dictatorship. But I digress; what is it you’d like to say about the disaster in Haiti regarding good and evil?

Actually I’m going on the perception that all evil ultimately derives from the ‘spoiling’ of good. That nothing ‘evil’ is independent. Love is good. . .but hate is a ‘spoiling’ of love. There had to be the good ‘first’. . .hate cannot come about on its own’, but love CAN.

I don’t believe that God created this world and exists as an omnibenevolent dictator. I believe that He is Lord and Creator, but that He gave us free will. He is King and Lord, but not ‘dictator’.

The original world was good. . .but with sin, the possibility of good being ‘spoiled’ exists in all spheres. . .from our sun eventually going nova (not a good thing if we happened to be alive on Earth just then). . .IOW, everything from natural disasters that exist because there are things like gravity, tectonic plates, earth, water, soil, plants, people, etc.

We’re in the ‘middle’ of the story, so to speak. We know some of the beginning, we know our ‘middle’ part, but we don’t know the end of the story. There are a lot of ‘possibilities’ for ending, some of them happy, some not.

If one is a believer and has faith, then one knows the ending will be ‘good’, and that all that happened will ultimately have been for good. . .but then again, we’ll know ‘perfect’ good at that point.

Suppose I’m a little girl and I’ve been waiting all week for Saturday to go to the beach for a picnic. . .but that day it rains. I am very, very unhappy. So are a lot of other children (and parents). Some might be very unhappy. There might even exist a person who is so unhappy that it rains that he commits suicide. These are all evils. . . BUT. . .the rain causes a lot of plant growth, replenishes the shrinking water tables, ensures a bumper crop of, say, blueberries, which will in the coming months enable a lot of people to pay their bills, feed their families, etc from the sale, plus improve the health of people eating those antioxidant blueberries. SO. . .the same ‘evil’ the little girl cries over is a positive GOOD for many others.

It is hard to see anything good about an earthquake. I can think of a few things that are, not exactly ‘good’, but not ‘bad’. For example, while there has been much death and suffering, many people have also (both in Haiti and in other places) done much much good that they would not, perhaps, have done otherwise.

There may be a regime change in Haiti as a result (in time) of people seeing the corruption and being angry enough over its effect on the poor and suffering that they will make the change for good that they might not have made had things gone on as they had before.

The Black Death in Europe had some very negative consequences for the millions who died in it. . .but there were huge changes that came about, for good, which were direct and indirect results of it.

Again, we need to know that God cares as much for the individual at this time as He does for the ‘whole story’.

Perhaps the people who died in this quake, had they not died at this time, might indeed have either caused themselves, or others, great suffering. Perhaps their death which seems so sudden and hurtful to us who remain was actually, for them, a blessing, in that in their temporal suffering they were thus able to repent, to cry to God, and thus that now they are safe and happy in heaven, where they might not otherwise have been. God alone knows, but I trust Him.

 

[Bookcat]

And our Hope is in the resurrection of Christ – he is our hope!

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20090412_urbi-easter_en.html

(Christ is our hope in daily life… in our great sufferings and our little ones…in evil which is the result of free will being misused …in natural disasters when nature moves and winds blow…even in death: and in the end after all have made their free choice…after the hazards and adventures…after all the good and beauty of this life …after the sorrows and the joys…we will know the New Heavens and New earth…we will know the fullness of life…where all tears will be wiped away…in the Resurrection…this is our Faith!)

I would also suggest to readers the book 'Crossing the Threshold of Hope by Pope John Paul II – particularly the chapter on evil and on suffering on the cross…

 

[tdgesq]

So God is decidedly responsible, because he willed it. He specifically willed the destruction of much of Haiti by this earthquake because he willed the world to be in a state of journeying. Since God’s perfect world was willed to have components of construction and destruction for a state of journeying, shall we praise God for this horror?

God willed that humanity have free will. We know that death entered the world as a consequence of the Fall - the willful sinfulness of Adam and Eve. We also know that as a result God allowed Lucifer and the fallen angels to exert power over this world. Unfortunately, the sinful choices of our ancestors are ultimately responsible for both moral evil and natural evil.

Allow me to highlight the opperative words and phrases:

Painful
Mysterious
No quick [satisfying] answer
Terrible mystery

There’s a lot of mumbojumbo that doesn’t answer our question of evil so much as it does point us to the fluffier, more romantic aspects of Christianity. The other part of it suggests that it is something terrible, unknown, and decidedly unknown until we meet (if we meet) God (if there’s God) face-to-face. It’s an evasion of an answer, not an answer itself.

Well, it is true that we don’t know why God allowed any specific natural disaster to occur - that is - why there is as much natural evil in the world as there is. Neither do we know the exact mechanism for the introduction of natural evil into the world. What we do know is that (absent supernatural intervention) some way and some how we are all going to die. The bigger question I suppose is this: why is there death at all? Catholics know the answer to that question from Scripture and the teachings of the Church.

 

[Lauds]

It was explained to me that when these catastrophic things happen & thousands of people die, just think of all the conversions people might have knowing this was their last moment,& their souls would be saved because of it, I don`t know if I believe this tho

 

[Lauds]

God permits evil for the geater good that comes out of it they say

 

[Lauds]

God created the natural order of things, so it is an act of God

 

[Nan_S]

In allowing a natural disaster to fall upon downtrodden, hopeless people who were not able to escape or avoid it, God has brought good out of apparent evil.

First, many who had no other means of escape or hope of change have been relieved of the burdens of this life and admitted into God’s divine presence. Death is not an ending; it is a new beginning.

Second, the outside world which had been ignoring the desperate plight of a hopeless people has been shocked into taking action. And the corrupt government which was suppressing a hopeless people and blocking outside “interference” has been shoved aside by an impossible situation which they can no longer control.

Haiti will suffer in the short run, but it has been desperately suffering for a long time already. An earthquake is a traumatic event, but this was the level of events necessary in order for God to steer Haiti in a new direction.

 

[Qoeleth]

The answer is NO. Let us turn to Scripture:
“Nothing this world has to offer could ever come from the Father.” (1 John 2:16)
“The whole world lies in the power of the Evil One.” (1 John 5:19)

To attributes the things of this world, whether ‘good’ or bad, to God, is paganism, pure and simple. For it is Satan who is “Lord of this World” (John 12:31).

And an evil world it is, which crucified the most noble man who ever lived, and now randomly slaughters thousands of innocents.

 

[Bookcat]

The answer is NO. Let us turn to Scripture:
“Nothing this world has to offer could ever come from the Father.” (1 John 2:16)
“The whole world lies in the power of the Evil One.” (1 John 5:19)

To attributes the things of this world, whether ‘good’ or bad, to God, is paganism, pure and simple. For it is Satan who is “Lord of this World” (John 12:31).

And an evil world it is, which crucified the most noble man who ever lived, and now randomly slaughters thousands of innocents.

This is not a correct understanding of scripture or the world or God.

 

[Bookcat]

And our Hope is in the resurrection of Christ – he is our hope!

vatican.va/holy_father/be…easter_en.html

(Christ is our hope in daily life… in our great sufferings and our little ones…in evil which is the result of free will being misused …in natural disasters when nature moves and winds blow…even in death: and in the end after all have made their free choice…after the hazards and adventures…after all the good and beauty of this life …after the sorrows and the joys…we will know the New Heavens and New earth…we will know the fullness of life…where all tears will be wiped away…in the Resurrection…this is our Faith!)

 

[Qoeleth]

This is not a correct understanding of scripture or the world or God.

Indeed, it is correct. If not, wherein is my error?

Whoever interprets the world, and the things thereof, to be just, necessarily holds God to be unjust, “for whosoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Alright, Alright. So this is progress. We have a trivision of “God did it by the work of his provident hands to bring about a greater good,” “The Devil did it because it was bad, and the Devil’s bad,” and “Man did it by sinning first and bringing both moral and natural evil into the world.”

Maybe it’s fair to say that since God is at the top of the hierarchy that he is the culprit, still? Surely an all-knowing, omni-benevolent God could have and would have acted in foresight to stop this disaster (or created a system in which this never would have taken place) unless he specifically had a purpose for it and saw it, as everything within his will, as good. It seems very much that, in a very literal sense, God caused the disaster.

But ideas are generating, so I’m open to more theories; each one more zealous, puerile, fantastic, and imaginative than the last!

 

[Qoeleth]

Alright, Alright. So this is progress. We have a trivision of “God did it by the work of his provident hands to bring about a greater good,” “The Devil did it because it was bad, and the Devil’s bad,” and “Man did it by sinning first and bringing both moral and natural evil into the world.”

Maybe it’s fair to say that since God is at the top of the hierarchy that he is the culprit, still? Surely an all-knowing, omni-benevolent God could have and would have acted in foresight to stop this disaster (or created a system in which this never would have taken place) unless he specifically had a purpose for it and saw it, as everything within his will, as good. It seems very much that, in a very literal sense, God caused the disaster.

But ideas are generating, so I’m open to more theories; each one more zealous, puerile, fantastic, and imaginative than the last!

The only answer to your original question is this: Nobody knows. You do not know, I do not know, nobody really knows, although some may pretend they do. You have asked a question, which you know cannot be answered at all.

I admit that the answer I offered has no greater claim to truth than any others. Some people say God caused it, some people say He didn’t. I say, He didn’t, since God, by definition is good, nothing bad may be attributed to Him.A disaster, by definition, is bad.

Since no answer to your orginial question can be offered, why even ask the question? (Apart from to pass the time, of course). In the end, any asnwer is simply an arrangement of words. And words really do not mean anything.

 

[Schn]

Nothing happens without God’s will, right?

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

You have asked a question, which you know cannot be answered at all…Since no answer to your orginial question can be offered, why even ask the question?.. Any asnwer is simply an arrangement of words. And words really do not mean anything.

Well done! You’ve found me out. It was, I’ll admit, a manipulative tactic. I think a lot can be learned from ourselves about the questions that we can’t answer. The fact that something still remains so raw and terrible no matter how we frame it makes the answers to our questions seem incorrigibly inadequate. But there is something more universal to be taken from this: just because other answers to other questions don’t rock our conception of God (the way a God that permits excessive evil does), doesn’t mean that our answers are any more convincing; it means, if we fancy them to be correct at the onset, we won’t suffer any undue comfort, because they align with God’s benevolence.

In a more global sense, I want people to ask questions about everything, never being satisfied with what merely appeals to our fancy. I’ve been there, and it’s intellectually painful. WIthout simply knowing the following, meditate on it also: just because we conceive of possible answers doesn’t make them right.

 

[Bookcat]

“Voice of reason” and his friends (or perhaps he under a new mask)

it seems you come here…thinking perhaps that others here have not had the problem of evil come knock on their door at odd hours.

this I assure you is not the case.

the difference is in the answer given to the knock.

yes it is problem that can reach down into ones bones…one feels it …

and those in Haiti touch it at this very moment with their hands and we see it with our eyes on the news…

the difference perhaps between you and the others here …is we see the beauty of life too…the joy in a child’s face…the wonder of love…the happiness of a warm summer day…the beauty of a waterfall…the joy of discovery…

we see that there is really reason – logos-- in existence --these things have meaning… and the world and universe has meaning.

yes earthquakes happen …there is a purpose …science will tell you …that the plates in the earth shift. it is needed for planet.

Does God love those who happen to have been under very bad conditions – created by man…bad governments in the past etc…and who now suffer and die–yes.

does God love the family that dies in a house fire because a candle was left burning…and due to the nature of fire (which we use for light and heat and cooking etc) ? Yes he does.

Is God going to reverse the nature of gravity cause my plane ran out of fuel and now is falling…?

(now God can do a miracle …this is true…but by nature such should be rare thing)

The world is made up of many different aspects that work together.

God loves us …and we have good and beauty and joy…as well as he offers us his love and authentic life.

The difference is we believe him. We have faith and hope in Jesus Christ --in his resurrection.

Now the question is why — do you come to a forum like this ask such questions that it would take a nice course or two in theology and philosophy to be able to discuss in a reasonable way?

it is a little like a person who knows he has only 5 minutes left in a debate and throws out 50 questions at the other …knowing he does not have the time to answer.

Such is the stuff of school ground play yards.

it seems you come here…thinking perhaps that others here have not had the problem of evil come knock on their door at odd hours.

this I assure you is not the case.

the difference is in the answer given to the knock.

Our answer is Faith and Hope and Charity…our answer is our Whole Catholic Faith
(go read the Catechism from cover to cover…for a nice start)

Our answer is our Faith and Hope in Jesus Christ who entered into our sufferings…and endured death on the Cross for love …who IS risen from the dead and who gives us a share even now in his resurrection and in whom we will rise on the last day to a new heaven and a new earth where all tears will be wiped away and death will be no more.
Only Life. simply life.

This is our answer.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

I find a lot of amusement in your assertion that I might have various masks – there couldn’t possibly be more than one unbeliever on a forum like this. I’m sure you’ve seen the problem of natural evil before – it’s just that every additional time that people encounter it makes them more acutely aware of their faulty reasoning. Enlightenment, typically, is not an all-or-nothing ratio; it’s cumulative. I’d like to raise people’s consciousness to questions that they have only visited, even if they don’t wish to mull over them in any greater depth then they have prior.

Like you, I see beauty and all of that; it’s not hard to imagine such things coming from an all-benevolent creator God. It’s not as if the presence of such beauty negates the problem of evil or even pacifies it though. The problem is ever-looming before your eyes. The other examples that you give include some natural evil, but are invariably the fault of man’s neglect (leaving a candle burning; not fuelling a plane properly; oppressive governments). Do you not realize that I’m talking exclusively about natural evil?

I agree that it would take a number of theological and philosophical seminars to adequately refute every impressive problem that evil poses, but it wouldn’t be an explanation anymore than a rationale. Qoeleth has determined, quite aptly, that the question has no reasonable answer, or at least not one that extends beyond mere speculation (which is why I made a point of asking it) . Now you accuse me of asking a question that, whatsoever the case about an answer may be, you don’t have adequate resources to reply. I’ve explained above that my reason for doing so is because unanswerable questions, more so then back-and-forth conjectures, teaches us something about our faith that you mightn’t learn somewhere else: that, quite simply, our answers are bad.

You have a lot to say; nothing coherent, so much as a barrage of disconnected thoughts aimed at stupefying me. You end with a piece of romantic Christian theology, courageously standing your guard and saying “this is our answer!,” like the punch-line to a speech before a medieval battle. It is your answer; but you have no regard whether it’s a good one or a bad one. I am of the mind that answers should be satisfying and convincing, not simply defiant for the sake of being contrary.

 

[Bookcat]

“Do you not realize that I’m talking exclusively about natural evil?”

Well then you are NOT talking about what happened in Haiti.

(poor housing etc…effects of past bad governments…)