V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
u juste keep sayin teh same thing ovar and ovr. it dusn’t make a vry gud case for ur argyoomint
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Q
Qoeleth
Guest
This is blantantly contradictory to Sacred Scripture: “the whole world is under the power of the Evil One”. (1 John 5:19)From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
…
314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us.
From: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324
I think Voice of Reason has the more 'reasonable’position- you simply cannot reconcile a benevolent God with the sufferings of innocents. You can either have an omnipotent God (a pagan God), or a loving God (the Christian God), but you cannot have both.
The Christian God is involved in struggle against the sin and misery which is this world, and since there is a struggle at all, we must exclude omnipotence from His divine attributes. And indeed, Christ did not come with omnipotence, but with compassion.
S
Schn
Guest
Why would you worship a god that is impotent?This is blantantly contradictory to Sacred Scripture: “the whole world is under the power of the Evil One”. (1 John 5:19)
I think Voice of Reason has the more 'reasonable’position- you simply cannot reconcile a benevolent God with the sufferings of innocents. You can either have an omnipotent God (a pagan God), or a loving God (the Christian God), but you cannot have both.
The Christian God is involved in struggle against the sin and misery which is this world, and since there is a struggle at all, we must exclude omnipotence from His divine attributes. And indeed, Christ did not come with omnipotence, but with compassion.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
I follow the moral teachings of Christ and the prophets, because of their inherent wisdom. What do you mean by ‘worship’?Why would you worship a god that is impotent?
S
Schn
Guest
Worship, follow, believe in. Whatever. They do not have inherent wisdom, any more than I do when I say I have inherent wisdom. I don’t think wisdom can be inherent. What is wisdom? Why do they have inherent wisdom?I follow the moral teachings of Christ and the prophets, because of their inherent wisdom. What do you mean by ‘worship’?
L
Lauds
Guest
Aren
t all these things that are happening, Natural disasters, floods, earthquakes, etc, signs of the end times according to Revelations. God does permit evil for the greater good that comes out of it, we dont understand it, But God does. There are things we will never know, we can argue till the cows come home
B
Bookcat
Guest
does your school yard tactics…do anything for yours?u juste keep sayin teh same thing ovar and ovr. it dusn’t make a vry gud case for ur argyoomint
tis always good to restate our understanding and our Faith.
especially in light of the various goings on in various directions in this thread.
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
Ahh! Interesting! A segway into a stance I wouldn’t have imagined from a Catholic.Why call him God then if He has limited potency? How can a perfect being lack power? Doesn’t this contradict yet other biblical teachings?This is blantantly contradictory to Sacred Scripture: “the whole world is under the power of the Evil One”. (1 John 5:19)
I think Voice of Reason has the more 'reasonable’position- you simply cannot reconcile a benevolent God with the sufferings of innocents. You can either have an omnipotent God (a pagan God), or a loving God (the Christian God), but you cannot have both.
The Christian God is involved in struggle against the sin and misery which is this world, and since there is a struggle at all, we must exclude omnipotence from His divine attributes. And indeed, Christ did not come with omnipotence, but with compassion.
Matthew 19:26 says “with God all things are possible”
The Lord is the Lord Almighty (var. verses)
And doesn’t this condradict your assertion that jesus brings wisdom, not opnipotence?:
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Certainly logic would tell us that a God who can create a world and insist his providence upon it can, indeed, act upon it in any way without limitation.
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
No, it’s good to give arguments and reasons instead of thoughtlessly repeating yourself. Now, you have the credentials that are necessary (and essential, so you say) for answering the question of natural evil: so let’s hear it. Don’t be shy; don’t let hiding goodness be your besetting sin. What a shame that would be.does your school yard tactics…do anything for yours?
tis always good to restate our understanding and our Faith.
especially in light of the various goings on in various directions in this thread.
B
Bookcat
Guest
so I do not have to repeat myself …for you do not seem to like this…No, it’s good to give arguments and reasons instead of thoughtlessly repeating yourself. Now, you have the credentials that are necessary (and essential, so you say) for answering the question of natural evil: so let’s hear it. Don’t be shy; don’t let hiding goodness be your besetting sin. What a shame that would be.
I refer you back to my other post where I addressed this same question from you…
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Because, the greater your experience of life and knowledge of humanity, the more their truth will resonate. A true statement has a particular inherent wisdom, because it resonates with the experience of humanity.Worship, follow, believe in. Whatever. They do not have inherent wisdom, any more than I do when I say I have inherent wisdom. I don’t think wisdom can be inherent. What is wisdom? Why do they have inherent wisdom?
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Why do you have such great, and indeed, religious, faith in logic? After all, human reason in nothing more than blind folly.Ahh! Interesting! A segway into a stance I wouldn’t have imagined from a Catholic.Why call him God then if He has limited potency? How can a perfect being lack power? Doesn’t this contradict yet other biblical teachings?
Matthew 19:26 says “with God all things are possible”
The Lord is the Lord Almighty (var. verses)
And doesn’t this condradict your assertion that jesus brings wisdom, not opnipotence?:
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Certainly logic would tell us that a God who can create a world and insist his providence upon it can, indeed, act upon it in any way without limitation.
You can use logic to prove or disprove anything. Indeed, the Nazis used ‘logic’ very well to justify killing many. After all, they would say, the destruction of one race by another was accord with the logical principles of ‘natural selection’. Would you then have to agree with this? OR, do you still subscribe to non-logical, Christian moral principles?
Faith in reason and logic is childish and naive.
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
Not sure what you’re talking about.so I do not have to repeat myself …for you do not seem to like this…
I refer you back to my other post where I addressed this same question from you…
You said that it would take credentials to answer the question of evil (credentials which you have). Now, I’ll ask: would you be willing to present the thread with a logical demonstration?
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
Uh huh. Well humor me then, please, and pretend that you do believe in logic and reason; this is a new stance for me and I wouldn’t mind if you explained it a little:Why do you have such great, and indeed, religious, faith in logic? After all, human reason in nothing more than blind folly.
You can use logic to prove or disprove anything. Indeed, the Nazis used ‘logic’ very well to justify killing many. After all, they would say, the destruction of one race by another was accord with the logical principles of ‘natural selection’. Would you then have to agree with this? OR, do you still subscribe to non-logical, Christian moral principles?
Faith in reason and logic is childish and naive.
Why call him God then if He has limited potency? How can a perfect being lack power? Doesn’t this contradict yet other biblical teachings?
Matthew 19:26 says “with God all things are possible”
The Lord is the Lord Almighty (var. verses)
And doesn’t this condradict your assertion that jesus brings wisdom, not opnipotence?:
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
A God who can create a world and insist his providence upon it can, indeed, act upon it in any way without limitation.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Well, there is a logical discontinuity between parts of Scripture. It was written by many different people. Matthew’s theology is different to John’s. Some parts say that God rules the world (as you quote), some parts say that the world is evil, and ruled by Satan (as a metaphor for the things of the world). Even within the works of a single writer, there are often apparent contradictions.Uh huh. Well humor me then, please, and pretend that you do believe in logic and reason; this is a new stance for me and I wouldn’t mind if you explained it a little:
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
I agree. But if you don’t mind me asking, why do such looming inconsistencies not completely rock your faith in Catholicism or God?Well, there is a logical discontinuity between parts of Scripture. It was written by many different people. Matthew’s theology is different to John’s. Some parts say that God rules the world (as you quote), some parts say that the world is evil, and ruled by Satan (as a metaphor for the things of the world). Even within the works of a single writer, there are often apparent contradictions.
I
itinerant1
Guest
It is a good and sane theology that explains natural phenomena by natural causes unless there is a good reason to suspect a supra-natural cause. Lacking any good reason to think God caused the earthquake by some direct intervention into nature, the right thing to do is accept the normal processes of nature as God created it to be a sufficient explanation.It would be impossible for us to ever know that unless He decided to tell us. I am astounded that there are people out there who presume to know the mind of God in an instance like this.
I
itinerant1
Guest
The difference between Matthew’s theology and John’s theology is not properly characterized by “logical discontinuity”. Instead, their theologies emphasize different points, and view divine realities from different perspectives. These perspectives are complimentary and contribute to a fuller picture. The apparent contradictions in reference to the “world” are apparent only and not real discrepancies. The New Testament writers will use the term “world” in different senses. One has to know what a particular writer means by “the world”, and even more, what his particular emphasis is on. The Greek word in the NT that gets translated as “world” is “kosmos”. Kosmos is used both as a cosmological term and as a theological term.Well, there is a logical discontinuity between parts of Scripture. It was written by many different people. Matthew’s theology is different to John’s. Some parts say that God rules the world (as you quote), some parts say that the world is evil, and ruled by Satan (as a metaphor for the things of the world). Even within the works of a single writer, there are often apparent contradictions.
I
itinerant1
Guest
The idea that God caused the 7.0 earthquake in Haiti is characteristic of extreme fundamentalist thinking. For instance, Pat Robertson claimed it was because the Haitians made a pact with the devil (sometime in the early 1800’s). LOL
Robertson had to do some quick damage control after his reckless comment. The situation provided good material for some comedians. For instance,
**
Pat Robertson: Haiti?! I Thought They Said “Hades”
Televangelist Explains Misunderstanding**
VIRGINIA BEACH (The Borowitz Report) - Just hours after saying that God was punishing Haiti for making a “pact with the Devil,” televangelist Pat Robertson retracted the statement, telling TV viewers, “Haiti? I thought they said ‘Hades.’”
Rev. Robertson said that he had heard the report of the earthquake on the radio and had misinterpreted its location: “For the life of me, I thought God was punishing Hades, which does in fact have a pact with the Devil.”
Apologizing for his “goof,” the televangelist told his TV audience, “Golly - people must’ve thought I was being an insensitive *****#%*&.”
And later,
Pat Robertson ‘A Public Relations Nightmare,’ Says God
Almighty Holds Rare Press Conference
NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) - In the wake of his comments about the earthquake in Haiti, televangelist Pat Robertson has become a “public relations nightmare” and a “gynormous embarrassment to me, personally,” God said today.
In a rare press conference at the Grand Hyatt in New York City, the usually reclusive Almighty said that He was taking the unusual step of airing His feelings in public because “enough is enough.”
“I pray that his TV show would just go away, but of course, when you’re me there’s no one to pray to,” God said, to the laughter of the packed room of reporters.
While God held out no hope that Rev. Robertson’s “700 Club” would be canceled any time soon, He did say, somewhat ruefully, “If Pat Robertson were on NBC he’d be replaced by Jay Leno by now.”
Robertson had to do some quick damage control after his reckless comment. The situation provided good material for some comedians. For instance,
**
Pat Robertson: Haiti?! I Thought They Said “Hades”
Televangelist Explains Misunderstanding**
VIRGINIA BEACH (The Borowitz Report) - Just hours after saying that God was punishing Haiti for making a “pact with the Devil,” televangelist Pat Robertson retracted the statement, telling TV viewers, “Haiti? I thought they said ‘Hades.’”
Rev. Robertson said that he had heard the report of the earthquake on the radio and had misinterpreted its location: “For the life of me, I thought God was punishing Hades, which does in fact have a pact with the Devil.”
Apologizing for his “goof,” the televangelist told his TV audience, “Golly - people must’ve thought I was being an insensitive *****#%*&.”
And later,
Pat Robertson ‘A Public Relations Nightmare,’ Says God
Almighty Holds Rare Press Conference
NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) - In the wake of his comments about the earthquake in Haiti, televangelist Pat Robertson has become a “public relations nightmare” and a “gynormous embarrassment to me, personally,” God said today.
In a rare press conference at the Grand Hyatt in New York City, the usually reclusive Almighty said that He was taking the unusual step of airing His feelings in public because “enough is enough.”
“I pray that his TV show would just go away, but of course, when you’re me there’s no one to pray to,” God said, to the laughter of the packed room of reporters.
While God held out no hope that Rev. Robertson’s “700 Club” would be canceled any time soon, He did say, somewhat ruefully, “If Pat Robertson were on NBC he’d be replaced by Jay Leno by now.”
I
itinerant1
Guest
Actually, you have flipped the truth on its head. The Nazis did not use logic well. The Nazis engaged in a perversion of logic and sound thinking, and promoted an ideologically twisted version of natural selection taught to them by the biologist Ernst Haeckel.Why do you have such great, and indeed, religious, faith in logic? After all, human reason in nothing more than blind folly.
You can use logic to prove or disprove anything. Indeed, the Nazis used ‘logic’ very well to justify killing many. After all, they would say, the destruction of one race by another was accord with the logical principles of ‘natural selection’. Would you then have to agree with this? OR, do you still subscribe to non-logical, Christian moral principles?
Faith in reason and logic is childish and naive.
Had the German people been more astute in logic, then the Nazis’ Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, would not have been so successful at manipulating the populace.
God created the human mind with its ability to reason and to know. Reason is that which distinguishes man from the lower animals. The rules of logic are the rules of sound reasoning.
The idea that reason is blind folly, as you asserted, first came into Christian thinking via the Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther. Luther disparaged human reason and Aristotelian logic. Luther had no confidence in the human being, wrongly believing that man was totally corrupted by Original Sin, and essentially evil. In Luther’s view, not even God’ grace could reform man. The grace of Justification was merely a legal fiction, a cloak that covered man without creating a truly new person in Christ.
St. Augustine taught a very different doctrine. St. Augustine taught that faith was only the first step on the soul’s journey to God. Understanding (reason) comes next. Understanding is the reward of faith. We believe in order that we may understand.
In sum, your disparaging ideas about reason and logic are quite old school Lutheran, and definitely not very Catholic.
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