F
Fox
Guest
Couldn’t of said it better myself.
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I
itinerant1
Guest
There is no contradiction between the CCC and 1 John 5:19 since they are using the term “world” in different senses. You have failed to distinguish what each means by “world”.This is blantantly contradictory to Sacred Scripture: “the whole world is under the power of the Evil One”. (1 John 5:19)
I think Voice of Reason has the more 'reasonable’position- you simply cannot reconcile a benevolent God with the sufferings of innocents. You can either have an omnipotent God (a pagan God), or a loving God (the Christian God), but you cannot have both.
The Christian God is involved in struggle against the sin and misery which is this world, and since there is a struggle at all, we must exclude omnipotence from His divine attributes. And indeed, Christ did not come with omnipotence, but with compassion.
Your concept of God is neither Biblical nor Catholic. Your concept of God and Christ, to put it bluntly, is heretical.
If God is not both infinitely good and infinitely powerful, then He is not God. God does not literally “struggle” against evil any more than He had to make an effort to create the universe. God merely spoke and it was done.
God creates effortlessly through his spoken Word. And only a being of infinite power can bring something into existence from non-existence or non-being; it requires an infinite power. God did not “literally” rest on the seventh day, as if he had to work and was tired. The description is figurative.
When the Psalmist says, The Lord said to my Lord, “Come, sit at my right hand…” this does not imply that God is a physical being with hands. This is poetic and figurative speech.
Perhaps you are reading scripture too literally and not using reason to think about what you read.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Actually, the idea is from St. Paul “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness. For it is written, ‘He taketh the wise in thier craftiness.’ And again, the Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, and that they are vain.” (1 Cor 3:19)..
God created the human mind with its ability to reason and to know. Reason is that which distinguishes man from the lower animals. The rules of logic are the rules of sound reasoning.
The idea that reason is blind folly, as you asserted, first came into Christian thinking via the Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther. Luther disparaged human reason and Aristotelian logic. Luther had no confidence in the human being, wrongly believing that man was totally corrupted by Original Sin, and essentially evil. In sum, your disparaging ideas about reason and logic are quite old school Lutheran, and definitely not very Catholic.
It is also from Solomon, “For the greater the wisdom, the greater the grief. He that addeth to knowledge, addeth to sorrow”. (Eccl 1:18)
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Whichever way you look at it, “world” means “world”. Indeed, even more so, if you are conversant with the Greek, it could be translated at Universe (with a particular emphasis on the Order that exists in it.) This makes my position even stronger.The difference between Matthew’s theology and John’s theology is not properly characterized by “logical discontinuity”. Instead, their theologies emphasize different points, and view divine realities from different perspectives. These perspectives are complimentary and contribute to a fuller picture. The apparent contradictions in reference to the “world” are apparent only and not real discrepancies. The New Testament writers will use the term “world” in different senses. One has to know what a particular writer means by “the world”, and even more, what his particular emphasis is on. The Greek word in the NT that gets translated as “world” is “kosmos”. Kosmos is used both as a cosmological term and as a theological term.
Or,perhaps you can enlighten me as to what John means by Kosmos, if not precisely what I have said?
I
itinerant1
Guest
Actually not. St. Paul is speaking only of what he calls a worldly wisdom. It is merely a cleverness and craftiness. It is not true wisdom that he criticizes.Actually, the idea is from St. Paul “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness. For it is written, ‘He taketh the wise in thier craftiness.’ And again, the Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, and that they are vain.” (1 Cor 3:19).
It is also from Solomon, “For the greater the wisdom, the greater the grief. He that addeth to knowledge, addeth to sorrow”. (Eccl 1:18)
The reflections of Qoheleth are in the context of the vanity associated with the transitory nature of life – the vanity of it all – or so it seemed. Israel had not yet received the full revelation of the afterlife, which brought meaning and purpose to a transitory existence.
True wisdom, on the other hand is a gift from God. “And so I prayed, and understanding was given me; I entreated, and the spirit of Wisdom came to me. I esteemed her more than scepters and thrones; compared with her, all gold is a pinch of sand…(Wis. 7:7-8)”
“…for God loves only the man who lives with Wisdom (Wis. 7:27)”
“The pursuit of wisdom, especially joins man to God in friendship.” (St. Thomas Aquinas
I
itinerant1
Guest
The statement above is tautological and non-informative.Whichever way you look at it, “world” means “world”.
Sorry to say, but a position that had not legs to stand on cannot be made stronger. You failed to address what I said about the two uses of “kosmos” in the NT. One use is cosmological and the other is theological. And sometimes the two meanings are merged.Indeed, even more so, if you are conversant with the Greek, it could be translated at Universe (with a particular emphasis on the Order that exists in it.) This makes my position even stronger.
It’s actually very easy to research the uses of kosmos yourself, provided you have access to a reliable dictionary of the Bible. The term appears in the OT in the late Greek books, and in multiple places in the NT. In the NT kosmos is most commonly used in a theological sense.Or,perhaps you can enlighten me as to what John means by Kosmos, if not precisely what I have said?
In its cosmological sense, (AA 17:24) God is the creator of the kosmos; and it was made through the Word (Jn 1:10). Hence, from Genesis 1, we know that the kosmos is good, because all that God created is good.
Furthermore, St. Paul makes it clear that the kosmos belongs to Christians (1Co 3:22).
This one verse, by itself, completely undermines your entire claim.
In the Synoptic Gospels, the kosmos is generally spoken of as the dwelling place of man: it is the scene of kingdoms and nations. It is the world into which the apostles are sent. The kosmos is also mankind itself, the world of which the disciples are the light (Mt. 5:14).
In the theological sense, kosmos is the world where the drama of salvation is played out, with the world, which is mankind as fallen, alienated, and hostile toward God, as as such is a protagonist in the scene. This sinful world stands in opposition to God. There is a spirit of the world and a spirit of God (1 Co 2:12). It is the wisdom of this world that is folly.
The kosmos in John is generally this theological notion, but intensified by John’s immanent eschatology. Judgment is now on those who reject Christ and are hostile toward God. This kosmos of sinful mankind cannot receive the spirit nor recognize Him (Jn 14:17). The kosmos is not mankind in general – but mankind as the personified power hostile toward God, for the disciples are not to love the world, but to love one’s fellowmen. By faith, the disciples will overcome the *kosmos *since Jesus has broken its power.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
The differing definitions you are providing are extrinsic only- selected because they suit a particular view. There is nothing in the original Greek to indicate different meanings at all.The statement above is tautological and non-informative.
Sorry to say, but a position that had not legs to stand on cannot be made stronger. You failed to address what I said about the two uses of “kosmos” in the NT. One use is cosmological and the other is theological. And sometimes the two meanings are merged.
It’s actually very easy to research the uses of kosmos yourself, provided you have access to a reliable dictionary of the Bible. The term appears in the OT in the late Greek books, and in multiple places in the NT. In the NT kosmos is most commonly used in a theological sense.
In its cosmological sense, (AA 17:24) God is the creator of the kosmos; and it was made through the Word (Jn 1:10). Hence, from Genesis 1, we know that the kosmos is good, because all that God created is good.
Furthermore, St. Paul makes it clear that the kosmos belongs to Christians (1Co 3:22).
This one verse, by itself, completely undermines your entire claim.
In the Synoptic Gospels, the kosmos is generally spoken of as the dwelling place of man: it is the scene of kingdoms and nations. It is the world into which the apostles are sent. The kosmos is also mankind itself, the world of which the disciples are the light (Mt. 5:14).
In the theological sense, kosmos is the world where the drama of salvation is played out, with the world, which is mankind as fallen, alienated, and hostile toward God, as as such is a protagonist in the scene. This sinful world stands in opposition to God. There is a spirit of the world and a spirit of God (1 Co 2:12). It is the wisdom of this world that is folly.
The kosmos in John is generally this theological notion, but intensified by John’s immanent eschatology. Judgment is now on those who reject Christ and are hostile toward God. This kosmos of sinful mankind cannot receive the spirit nor recognize Him (Jn 14:17). The kosmos is not mankind in general – but mankind as the personified power hostile toward God, for the disciples are not to love the world, but to love one’s fellowmen. By faith, the disciples will overcome the *kosmos *since Jesus has broken its power.
I
itinerant1
Guest
Anyone who knows NT and classical Greek knows you are talking nonsense, and that you probably just made that all up, so you might want to reconsider for the sake of your own credibility.The differing definitions you are providing are extrinsic only- selected because they suit a particular view. There is nothing in the original Greek to indicate different meanings at all.
I
itinerant1
Guest
Since the poster “Qoeleth” insists on misrepresenting the meaning of the term “world” as used by various New Testament writers, I decided to present additional lexical facts so no one will be misled by “Qoeleth’s” remarks, which are based solely on critically flawed private interpretations of the Bible.
Accordingly, there are three different Greek words, which typically get translated into English as “world.” These words transliterated are kosmos, aion, and oikoumene. Each of these words is used with specific and intended variations in meanings, depending on the NT writer and the context, as is shown below in some detail.
1. World
kosmos primarily “order, arrangement, ornament, adornment” 1_Pet_3:3, is used to denote,
(a) the “earth,” e.g., Matt. 13;35; John_21:25; Acts_17:24; Rom_1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1_Tim_6:7; Heb_4:3; Heb_9:26;
(b) the “earth” in contrast with Heaven, 1_John_3:17 (perhaps also Rom_4:13);
(c) by metonymy, the “human race, mankind,” e.g., Matt_5:14; John_1:9 [he “that cometh (RV, ‘coming’) into the world” is said of Christ, not of “every man;” by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1_John_3:10; 1_John_3:16,17 (thrice), 1_John_3:19; 1_John_4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John;
(d) “Gentiles” as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom_11:12,15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2_Cor_5:19);
(e) the “present condition of human affairs,” in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., John_7:7; John_8:23; John_14:30; 1_Cor_2:12; Gal_4:3; Gal_6:14; Col_2:8; James_1:27; 1_John_4:5 (thrice); 1_John_5:19;
(f) the “sum of temporal possessions,” Matt_16:26; 1_Cor_7:31 (1st part);
(g) metaphorically, of the “tongue” as “a world (of iniquity),” James_3:6; expressive of magnitude and variety.
**
2. World**
aion “an age, a period of time,” marked in the NT usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated “world;”. always has “age.” The following are details concerning the world in this respect; its cares, Matt_13:22; its sons, Luke_16:8; Luke_20:34; its rulers, 1_Cor_2:6,8; its wisdom, 1_Cor_1:20; 1_Cor_2:6; 1_Cor_3:18, its fashion, Rom_12:2; its character, Gal_1:4; its god, 2_Cor_4:4. The phrase “the end of the world” should be rendered “the end of the age,” in most places; in 1_Cor_10:11, AV, “the ends (tele) of the world,” “the ends of the ages,” probably signifies the fulfillment of the Divine purposes concerning the ages in regard to the church. In Heb_11:3 [lit., “the ages (have been prepared)”] the word indicates all that the successive periods contain; cp. Heb_1:2. Aion is always to be distinguished from kosmos, even where the two seem to express the same idea, e.g., 1_Cor_3:18, aion, 1_Cor_3:19, kosmos; the two are used together in Eph_2:2, lit., “the age of this world.”
3. World
oikoumene “the inhabited earth”, is used
(a) of the whole inhabited world, Matt_24:14; Luke_4:5; Luke_21:26; Rom_10:18; Heb_1:6; Rev_3:10; Rev_16:14; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:31; Rev_12:9;
(b) of the Roman Empire, the world as viewed by the writer or speaker, Luke_2:1; Acts_11:28; Acts_24:5; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:6; Acts_19:27;
(c) the inhabited world in a coming age, Heb_2:5.
Notes:
(1) In Rev_13:3, AV, ge, “the earth”, is translated “world.”
(2) For phrases containing aionios, e.g., Rom_16:25; 2_Tim_1:9; Titus_1:2,
Accordingly, there are three different Greek words, which typically get translated into English as “world.” These words transliterated are kosmos, aion, and oikoumene. Each of these words is used with specific and intended variations in meanings, depending on the NT writer and the context, as is shown below in some detail.
1. World
kosmos primarily “order, arrangement, ornament, adornment” 1_Pet_3:3, is used to denote,
(a) the “earth,” e.g., Matt. 13;35; John_21:25; Acts_17:24; Rom_1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1_Tim_6:7; Heb_4:3; Heb_9:26;
(b) the “earth” in contrast with Heaven, 1_John_3:17 (perhaps also Rom_4:13);
(c) by metonymy, the “human race, mankind,” e.g., Matt_5:14; John_1:9 [he “that cometh (RV, ‘coming’) into the world” is said of Christ, not of “every man;” by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1_John_3:10; 1_John_3:16,17 (thrice), 1_John_3:19; 1_John_4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John;
(d) “Gentiles” as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom_11:12,15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2_Cor_5:19);
(e) the “present condition of human affairs,” in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., John_7:7; John_8:23; John_14:30; 1_Cor_2:12; Gal_4:3; Gal_6:14; Col_2:8; James_1:27; 1_John_4:5 (thrice); 1_John_5:19;
(f) the “sum of temporal possessions,” Matt_16:26; 1_Cor_7:31 (1st part);
(g) metaphorically, of the “tongue” as “a world (of iniquity),” James_3:6; expressive of magnitude and variety.
**
2. World**
aion “an age, a period of time,” marked in the NT usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated “world;”. always has “age.” The following are details concerning the world in this respect; its cares, Matt_13:22; its sons, Luke_16:8; Luke_20:34; its rulers, 1_Cor_2:6,8; its wisdom, 1_Cor_1:20; 1_Cor_2:6; 1_Cor_3:18, its fashion, Rom_12:2; its character, Gal_1:4; its god, 2_Cor_4:4. The phrase “the end of the world” should be rendered “the end of the age,” in most places; in 1_Cor_10:11, AV, “the ends (tele) of the world,” “the ends of the ages,” probably signifies the fulfillment of the Divine purposes concerning the ages in regard to the church. In Heb_11:3 [lit., “the ages (have been prepared)”] the word indicates all that the successive periods contain; cp. Heb_1:2. Aion is always to be distinguished from kosmos, even where the two seem to express the same idea, e.g., 1_Cor_3:18, aion, 1_Cor_3:19, kosmos; the two are used together in Eph_2:2, lit., “the age of this world.”
3. World
oikoumene “the inhabited earth”, is used
(a) of the whole inhabited world, Matt_24:14; Luke_4:5; Luke_21:26; Rom_10:18; Heb_1:6; Rev_3:10; Rev_16:14; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:31; Rev_12:9;
(b) of the Roman Empire, the world as viewed by the writer or speaker, Luke_2:1; Acts_11:28; Acts_24:5; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:6; Acts_19:27;
(c) the inhabited world in a coming age, Heb_2:5.
Notes:
(1) In Rev_13:3, AV, ge, “the earth”, is translated “world.”
(2) For phrases containing aionios, e.g., Rom_16:25; 2_Tim_1:9; Titus_1:2,
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Your definitions simply confirm my position, that the suffering people experience in this world is not "the fault’’ of God, but rather of evil (original sin, Satan, etc.).Since the poster “Qoeleth” insists on misrepresenting the meaning of the term “world” as used by various New Testament writers, I decided to present additional lexical facts so no one will be misled by “Qoeleth’s” remarks, which are based solely on critically flawed private interpretations of the Bible.
Accordingly, there are three different Greek words, which typically get translated into English as “world.” These words transliterated are kosmos, aion, and oikoumene. Each of these words is used with specific and intended variations in meanings, depending on the NT writer and the context, as is shown below in some detail.
1. World
kosmos primarily “order, arrangement, ornament, adornment” 1_Pet_3:3, is used to denote,
(a) the “earth,” e.g., Matt. 13;35; John_21:25; Acts_17:24; Rom_1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1_Tim_6:7; Heb_4:3; Heb_9:26;
(b) the “earth” in contrast with Heaven, 1_John_3:17 (perhaps also Rom_4:13);
(c) by metonymy, the “human race, mankind,” e.g., Matt_5:14; John_1:9 [he “that cometh (RV, ‘coming’) into the world” is said of Christ, not of “every man;” by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1_John_3:10; 1_John_3:16,17 (thrice), 1_John_3:19; 1_John_4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John;
(d) “Gentiles” as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom_11:12,15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2_Cor_5:19);
(e) the “present condition of human affairs,” in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., John_7:7; John_8:23; John_14:30; 1_Cor_2:12; Gal_4:3; Gal_6:14; Col_2:8; James_1:27; 1_John_4:5 (thrice); 1_John_5:19;
(f) the “sum of temporal possessions,” Matt_16:26; 1_Cor_7:31 (1st part);
(g) metaphorically, of the “tongue” as “a world (of iniquity),” James_3:6; expressive of magnitude and variety.
**
2. World**
aion “an age, a period of time,” marked in the NT usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated “world;”. always has “age.” The following are details concerning the world in this respect; its cares, Matt_13:22; its sons, Luke_16:8; Luke_20:34; its rulers, 1_Cor_2:6,8; its wisdom, 1_Cor_1:20; 1_Cor_2:6; 1_Cor_3:18, its fashion, Rom_12:2; its character, Gal_1:4; its god, 2_Cor_4:4. The phrase “the end of the world” should be rendered “the end of the age,” in most places; in 1_Cor_10:11, AV, “the ends (tele) of the world,” “the ends of the ages,” probably signifies the fulfillment of the Divine purposes concerning the ages in regard to the church. In Heb_11:3 [lit., “the ages (have been prepared)”] the word indicates all that the successive periods contain; cp. Heb_1:2. Aion is always to be distinguished from kosmos, even where the two seem to express the same idea, e.g., 1_Cor_3:18, aion, 1_Cor_3:19, kosmos; the two are used together in Eph_2:2, lit., “the age of this world.”
3. World
oikoumene “the inhabited earth”, is used
(a) of the whole inhabited world, Matt_24:14; Luke_4:5; Luke_21:26; Rom_10:18; Heb_1:6; Rev_3:10; Rev_16:14; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:31; Rev_12:9;
(b) of the Roman Empire, the world as viewed by the writer or speaker, Luke_2:1; Acts_11:28; Acts_24:5; by metonymy, of its inhabitants, Acts_17:6; Acts_19:27;
(c) the inhabited world in a coming age, Heb_2:5.
Notes:
(1) In Rev_13:3, AV, ge, “the earth”, is translated “world.”
(2) For phrases containing aionios, e.g., Rom_16:25; 2_Tim_1:9; Titus_1:2,
Even if we substitue your definition into 1 John 15:19
“The whole PRESENT CONDITION OF HUMANITY is under the power of the Evil One,” it still makes the point.
Now, I recommend you start at the very beginning of you Bible again. God created the world- it was good. Then Adam and Eve sinned, and and henceforth:
“Cursed is the ground for thy sake;
In sorrow shall thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth for thee;
and thou shal eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread.”
However, Christ came, and told the Good News, that the present (evil, worldly) order would be reversed in the World to Come, hence:
“Blessed are you who mourn now, for you shall be comforted,
(…) But alas for you who laugh now, for you shall weep and mourn.”
And, in this context, I prayer for that the souls of those who lost their lives in Haiti, knowing that, having completed this their exile in hac lacrimarum valle, they may now enjoy the True Life to come, in which “they that sow in tears shall reap in joy.” (Ps 126)
Amen.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Qoeleth & Itinerant,
You seem to be both right, in a sense, from where I’m sitting. Consider Romans 8:
The disasters we see may be caused by demons or their like. They are allowed by God, and why they are allowed is a great mystery. Passages like Romans 8, however, help us to begin to fathom the mystery.
You seem to be both right, in a sense, from where I’m sitting. Consider Romans 8:
Creation has been made subject to powers and principalities which are opposed to God. And yet, it was subjected by God. So, in one sense, God is not the cause, and in another sense God is (indirectly) the cause.*For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, *in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that *the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth *together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
The disasters we see may be caused by demons or their like. They are allowed by God, and why they are allowed is a great mystery. Passages like Romans 8, however, help us to begin to fathom the mystery.
A
archistrage
Guest
One of the things that we have to remember, is that Nature is just as much alive as we are. What’s more, Nature is far more powerful that we are. We can build the strongest houses, the thickest armor, and in one swipe from a Tornado, Hurricane, Earthquake, Nature can send us back to the Stone Age.
Throughout the Bible are many examples in which Nature in some way or another cries out to God to repair the damage caused by Man. In Genesis, after Cain kills Abel, we hear how the Blood poured out onto the ground cries out for retribution. Nature praises God, and prays to him even more than we do. All of Nature is totally dependent on God for survival. St. Francis of Assisi illustrated this point when he preached to the Birds, his “sisters” as he call them. “You neither reap nor you sow, but God provides for you.”
Now as I said above, Nature itself is completely capable of humbling us before its power, and the power of God. However, seeing as how all human life on Earth is not constantly destroyed every time we sin, we see that there is something holding it back. That something is God. God loves us so much, and gives us so much freedom, that he places his hand of protection into our lives, to give us a chance to learn from our mistakes, without being completely overwhelmed by them.
There is however, a point in our life where we immerse our self in so much evil, and corruption, that there is no, “polite” way to tell us how we have wronged ourselves and others. It is at this point, that God will remove his hand of protection from us. When he does this, it lets in all of the evil that we have submersed our self in, as well as whatever acts Nature must take to restore that balance. It is at this point that we are faced with the realization of what it is we have been truly doing to ourselves and each other. At this point we have two choices, we can change our lives and become better people, or we can lay down on the ground, and let the corruption destroy us. For the latter, I think at that point that there is usually someone to step in and save them from themselves, whether it be God or man.
Just remember, that our sins not only affect ourselves and our fellow man, but all life that man has interactions with.
If you look at Haiti, you will see that it has become immersed in corruption. It’s political leaders are nearly all completely corrupt. It has become a center for the illegal slave trade down there. It was too far gone, so God removed his hand of protection from it, and Nature stepped in and took its course. I hope you guys recognize though, that it was not God that physically stepped in and punished them, but it was letting them be affected by the totality of its own evil and corruption.
That is not to say, however, that Haiti is not in need of aid. We nevertheless must be willing to open our hearts and our homes to all who are in need. How else are people to learn from their own mistakes. By acting in such a helpful manner, you are providing an example of what it means to be a Christian. To be a part of the family of God, with Christ as our brother, and his Father our Father.
It also provides that exact moment to be nice. Often times people want to be good, but feel they need a reason to be so. Many trying to find the right situation to start being nice. Most are simply ignorant of the hundreds of situations that surround us everyday, and so by providing such an example, it gives people that chance to be a Christian, and to experience that joy that comes in helping others.
Archistrage
Throughout the Bible are many examples in which Nature in some way or another cries out to God to repair the damage caused by Man. In Genesis, after Cain kills Abel, we hear how the Blood poured out onto the ground cries out for retribution. Nature praises God, and prays to him even more than we do. All of Nature is totally dependent on God for survival. St. Francis of Assisi illustrated this point when he preached to the Birds, his “sisters” as he call them. “You neither reap nor you sow, but God provides for you.”
Now as I said above, Nature itself is completely capable of humbling us before its power, and the power of God. However, seeing as how all human life on Earth is not constantly destroyed every time we sin, we see that there is something holding it back. That something is God. God loves us so much, and gives us so much freedom, that he places his hand of protection into our lives, to give us a chance to learn from our mistakes, without being completely overwhelmed by them.
There is however, a point in our life where we immerse our self in so much evil, and corruption, that there is no, “polite” way to tell us how we have wronged ourselves and others. It is at this point, that God will remove his hand of protection from us. When he does this, it lets in all of the evil that we have submersed our self in, as well as whatever acts Nature must take to restore that balance. It is at this point that we are faced with the realization of what it is we have been truly doing to ourselves and each other. At this point we have two choices, we can change our lives and become better people, or we can lay down on the ground, and let the corruption destroy us. For the latter, I think at that point that there is usually someone to step in and save them from themselves, whether it be God or man.
Just remember, that our sins not only affect ourselves and our fellow man, but all life that man has interactions with.
If you look at Haiti, you will see that it has become immersed in corruption. It’s political leaders are nearly all completely corrupt. It has become a center for the illegal slave trade down there. It was too far gone, so God removed his hand of protection from it, and Nature stepped in and took its course. I hope you guys recognize though, that it was not God that physically stepped in and punished them, but it was letting them be affected by the totality of its own evil and corruption.
That is not to say, however, that Haiti is not in need of aid. We nevertheless must be willing to open our hearts and our homes to all who are in need. How else are people to learn from their own mistakes. By acting in such a helpful manner, you are providing an example of what it means to be a Christian. To be a part of the family of God, with Christ as our brother, and his Father our Father.
It also provides that exact moment to be nice. Often times people want to be good, but feel they need a reason to be so. Many trying to find the right situation to start being nice. Most are simply ignorant of the hundreds of situations that surround us everyday, and so by providing such an example, it gives people that chance to be a Christian, and to experience that joy that comes in helping others.
Archistrage
B
Bookcat
Guest
I would not be saying…God sent it.
nor that things were corrupt in the past there…and so he withdrew his protection…
if that were the case - we would be toast with all the abortions done in the US!
I do not think such thoughts are going in a good direction.
God loves and is with those in Haiti…
Earthquakes are part of the way the Earth works…they happen due to various reasons …and have to due with plate techonics…
without the plates being able to move we would not even have life on earth…
this one seems to have been built up over a 200 year period.
the response we need to have is one of love and compassion…
helping those in need. who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
this is the Christian response. as it has been from the earliest days.
nor that things were corrupt in the past there…and so he withdrew his protection…
if that were the case - we would be toast with all the abortions done in the US!
I do not think such thoughts are going in a good direction.
God loves and is with those in Haiti…
Earthquakes are part of the way the Earth works…they happen due to various reasons …and have to due with plate techonics…
without the plates being able to move we would not even have life on earth…
this one seems to have been built up over a 200 year period.
the response we need to have is one of love and compassion…
helping those in need. who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
this is the Christian response. as it has been from the earliest days.
A
archistrage
Guest
You make a good point Bookcat. I will go ahead and say that I am not asserting that what I believe in regard to that is the absolute truth, nor that your idea does not hold merit.
However, to ignore the possibility is foolish. What’s more, we must also remember that God is God. He is not subject to our rules and restrictions. If God wants something done, then it will be done.
I will say that the idea of God withdrawing his protection is not a new one. It has been used by theologians to explain everything from the destruction of the Egyptians, up to modern day disasters. And I guess in a few years we’ll see what the Church has to say on Haiti.
However, to ignore the possibility is foolish. What’s more, we must also remember that God is God. He is not subject to our rules and restrictions. If God wants something done, then it will be done.
I will say that the idea of God withdrawing his protection is not a new one. It has been used by theologians to explain everything from the destruction of the Egyptians, up to modern day disasters. And I guess in a few years we’ll see what the Church has to say on Haiti.
B
Bookcat
Guest
you will not find the Church saying such about Haiti…in even 500 years. anymore than She has said other modern natural disasters were such…You make a good point Bookcat. I will go ahead and say that I am not asserting that what I believe in regard to that is the absolute truth, nor that your idea does not hold merit.
However, to ignore the possibility is foolish. What’s more, we must also remember that God is God. He is not subject to our rules and restrictions. If God wants something done, then it will be done.
I will say that the idea of God withdrawing his protection is not a new one. It has been used by theologians to explain everything from the destruction of the Egyptians, up to modern day disasters. And I guess in a few years we’ll see what the Church has to say on Haiti.
The statements about Haiti in history for the Church are those of the Pope etc who asks for help for Haiti and who provides it…and who sees in Haiti a horrible natural disaster…
of course all of us may say to ourselves… wow…i could die today…or tonight etc…this pilgrimage can have any number of getting off points…and thus make what ever changes one needs to make…
and be there in love for those in Haiti
E
EmeraldWings
Guest
It was the will of God, whether He “sent” it or not,
read this -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275&login_success=1264539544
it won’t necessarily explain why God wills what He does, but it will help you understand that everything God does will, is always for His glory and our good.
read this -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275&login_success=1264539544
it won’t necessarily explain why God wills what He does, but it will help you understand that everything God does will, is always for His glory and our good.
B
Bookcat
Guest
always distinguish.
and there is much to distinguish in such events…
and thus I would NOT say that he sent it.
and there is much to distinguish in such events…
and thus I would NOT say that he sent it.
A
archistrage
Guest
That’s true, there is much to know, which is much more than we will ever know. I’ll admit, that I don’t think anyone can ever truly say. What I put forth in my first post would be my reasoning behind why I think God would allow it. But I admit that I don’t know the mind of God; none of us do for that matter.
I do agree with EmeraldWings though. Whether or not he meant it as a punishment, God did allow it to happen, and thus he had a reasoning behind it. God does not make accidents, he makes things perfect.
Can we at least find middle ground on that Bookcat?
Archistrage
I do agree with EmeraldWings though. Whether or not he meant it as a punishment, God did allow it to happen, and thus he had a reasoning behind it. God does not make accidents, he makes things perfect.
Can we at least find middle ground on that Bookcat?
Archistrage
B
Bookcat
Guest
Earthquakes are part of the way the Earth works…they happen due to various reasons …and have to due with plate techonics…
without the plates being able to move we would not even have life on earth…
this one seems to have been built up over a 200 year period.
so yes one can say …God allowed this movement as it is allowed all the time…to smaller or larger degrees depending on the degree movement and various natural processes involved…
…
the response we need to have is one of love and compassion…
helping those in need. who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
this is the Christian response. as it has been from the earliest days.
zenit.org/article-28143?l=english
without the plates being able to move we would not even have life on earth…
this one seems to have been built up over a 200 year period.
so yes one can say …God allowed this movement as it is allowed all the time…to smaller or larger degrees depending on the degree movement and various natural processes involved…
…
the response we need to have is one of love and compassion…
helping those in need. who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
this is the Christian response. as it has been from the earliest days.
zenit.org/article-28143?l=english
A
archistrage
Guest
I hope you’re not suggesting that I think we should just leave them there to stew in their own sins. I specifically stated above that whether or not this was a result of their sin, we should help them, because it is a chance for them to fix any personal wrongdoings by observing what it means to go out into the world and live a Christian life. I also think that it allows people that chance to be good to their fellow man, and a chance to live that Christian lifestyle.
I do not in anyway, shape, or form suggest that we leave them there. I’ve screwed up enough in my own life to know the value of the helping hand reaching down to life me back up. I’ve also learned the results of acting towards people based on how you judge them, both in the ways that people have acted towards me, and how I’ve treated others as well.
I hope you don’t think so little of me.
Archistrage
I do not in anyway, shape, or form suggest that we leave them there. I’ve screwed up enough in my own life to know the value of the helping hand reaching down to life me back up. I’ve also learned the results of acting towards people based on how you judge them, both in the ways that people have acted towards me, and how I’ve treated others as well.
I hope you don’t think so little of me.
Archistrage
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