Halloween, Monsters, Light and Dark, Witches and Sorcers: The Problem of The Argument

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Retro_Ace

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Im probably bringing up a long dead thread but here’s how I see it, I feel like this is the best way to explain the whole thing:

orig07.deviantart.net/c9fe/f/2014/340/8/3/wicked_wardrobe__fiona_frightening_by_mtc_studios-d88vex5.png

This is Fiona Frightening, the main playable character in a upcoming indie game called Fiona Frightening and The Wicked Wardrobe

Now, she is a little girl fascinated with all kinds of fairy tales, notably spooky cute ones, she is a brave, shy, kind little girl who has magic dresses to fight evil demonic monsters with her monster friends

Now the monsters in this game are no more in-contex demon than Casper The Friendly Ghost, and the bad guy the Boogieman is a devil-like figure which she confronts, basically the silly Witch here is the knight and the nasty devil-like Boogieman is the villain here, also this is just an assumption, but she and the other heroes are portrayed in the moonlight while the Boogieman is in the darkness

So is this in context any way satanic? Any sane parent would say, no of course not.

So its the context of how should we look at things like halloween, monster movies, horror and what have you.

Are there any people who take Halloween with a far too serious Satanic attitude? Yes. But are not fundies the same case for when it comes to the faith? Yes.

Also there are some who take it and make it more positive in other ways besides the “Dress Up as Saints” schtick

Its our attitude, not the creatures or characters in of themselves. Like those who designed a game called “Undertale” couldn’t say ‘Oh Darn we can’t use silly skeletons because Satantists use them’ thats as silly as saying WB can’t have Daffy Duck because Disney has Donald Duck

Its Attitude and Context so if you’re worried about your kids when it comes to this kind of stuff, don’t jump ahead and think of the ‘thing’ think of how he/she looks at it, understands it, and their attitude towards it
 
Retro_Ace said:
… if you’re worried about your kids when it comes to this kind of stuff, don’t jump ahead and think of the ‘thing’ think of how he/she looks at it, understands it, and their attitude towards it
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A lot of this sort of stuff can be a sort of seed-planting that only fully manifests itself when children are older. I present myself as a case-in-point. It was a very short segue for me to go from appreciating spooky things to being interested in a rather dark musician to becoming obsessed with determining the validity of the occult and things like ceremonial high magic. I could trace out the line of transition for you very clearly. I was an avowed satanist for several years of my life—and not only of the atheistic, LaVeyan variety—and that is something that took years to sort itself out, by God’s grace.

Now, I don’t say that every child will necessarily follow that path. But I do think it’s naive to look at certain manifestations of darkness and find them to be utterly harmless. Darkness is fascinating, and it’s a fascination that can be a sort of drug, leaving one always wanting a new and thrilling form. In fact, if you have no personal experience of this, I would urge you to suspend judgment. Looking at it from a theoretical perspective is well and fine, but the experiential perspective is, IMO, even more valuable. I would especially urge you to look into the testimony of exorcists on this matter.

But above all, children are to be formed. Their attitudes and understanding of a great deal of life is absolutely in need of being molded, not of being paid attention to as a sort of guideline for parenting. No? 🙂
 
Polyphony said:
A lot of this sort of stuff can be a sort of seed-planting that only fully manifests itself when children are older. I present myself as a case-in-point. It was a very short segue for me to go from appreciating spooky things to being interested in a rather dark musician to becoming obsessed with determining the validity of the occult and things like ceremonial high magic. I could trace out the line of transition for you very clearly. I was an avowed satanist for several years of my life—and not only of the atheistic, LaVeyan variety—and that is something that took years to sort itself out, by God’s grace.

Now, I don’t say that every child will necessarily follow that path. But I do think it’s naive to look at certain manifestations of darkness and find them to be utterly harmless. Darkness is fascinating, and it’s a fascination that can be a sort of drug, leaving one always wanting a new and thrilling form. In fact, if you have no personal experience of this, I would urge you to suspend judgment./QUOTE]

I have never been a satanist, never will be, but at the same time we can’t just not use stuff because other people use it.

My judgement is based on the fact there is a major difference between the two

first of all Witches in the genuine occult sense are not ‘boil boil toil and trouble’ or ‘harry potter’ or disney cartoons, werewolves, vampires, mummies, or frankensteins

my point is things like Fiona Frightening or oh say Corpse Bride does not equal The Church of Satan or any other well known satanic official whatever. We cannot judge on emotional reasoning.

In fact Fiona Frightening And The Wicked Wardrobe is a result from the designer and his wife getting tired and sick of the gritty shooters, horror, and those cynical Grand Theft Auto games. So they decided to design are more cute and lively approach, something that we need

youtube.com/watch?v=ubVQPmsMZt4

So before we see this as ‘infiltration’ why not check the background of the designer, writer, their intentions, ideas, beliefs, and what have you before you come to judge what their work is meant for
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I see your point, Retro, but my point is just that something needs only to contain an element of darkness to it, and this element might be sufficient to plant seeds.

It’s not really an emotional fascination, it’s being exposed to something spiritual that makes one curious. Some might ignore it, others might go around subliminally looking for it in other forms.

The intentions of an artist aren’t really relevant, because they could accidentally include a touch of darkness, and this might be enough to trigger things.

The key for me is simply this: the fact that something appears to be innocent is just not sufficient reason to forego spiritual discernment, and spiritual discernment is not something most children are capable of.

… but then, if counter-arguments really turn into “oh, but this is fun and my kid loves it,” well, I’m not so sure I can buy into that. We shouldn’t analyze the merit of something based on whether it gives us pleasure. Lots of bad stuff gives us pleasure. 🙂
 
As someone heavily involved in character design, children cannot tell what they’re looking at unless they have many points of reference. They don’t, since they’re not adults. This is a seed planter. Even if the character is good, kids are very observant. If they notice similar design elements elsewhere (say, in anime and ‘chibi’ characters), they could get confused.

I agree with Polyphony. A lot of bad stuff gives us pleasure, and some of it is visually attractive in some way.

Ed
 
It is not okay when the media promotes the occult. Some movies like Frozen blatantly promote the occult. Other movies like Toy Story have subliminal occult symbolism.
 
anon67074017 said:
It is not okay when the media promotes the occult. Some movies like Frozen blatantly promote the occult. Other movies like Toy Story have subliminal occult symbolism.
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I don’t know about Toy Story.

Ed
 
anon67074017 said:
It is not okay when the media promotes the occult. Some movies like Frozen blatantly promote the occult. Other movies like Toy Story have subliminal occult symbolism.
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Frozen, Toy Story?..right…

Yes bad things are visually pleasing but this game’s only magic are golden pages, magic dresses, ghoul money, and a wardrobe that’s pretty much a TARDIS, like I said we must teach kids the difference, as well enforce rating systems and what have you. Bayonetta is probably what you should be worried about, as much I love it’s design of angels and demons in a rich mythology it’s just a bunch of condescending “the catholic church is evil, bunch of hypocrites, whine whine whine” stuff
 
Retro_Ace said:
Frozen, Toy Story?..right…

Yes bad things are visually pleasing but this game’s only magic are golden pages, magic dresses, ghoul money, and a wardrobe that’s pretty much a TARDIS, like I said we must teach kids the difference, as well enforce rating systems and what have you. Bayonetta is probably what you should be worried about, as much I love it’s design of angels and demons in a rich mythology it’s just a bunch of condescending “the catholic church is evil, bunch of hypocrites, whine whine whine” stuff
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Frozen promotes witchcraft by portraying it in a positive light. There is also subliminal occult symbolism in Frozen:illuminatiwatcher.com/disneys-frozen-conspiracy-theories/ Here is my evidence of the subliminal occult symbolism in Toy Story as well:youtube.com/watch?v=w5AfaZZ6Ybc
 
anon67074017 said:
Did you even watch the video?
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Only until the picture of the devil flashed after Andy’s mom gives him his hat. I shut it off.

That movie is a harmless sweet movie about friendship and loyalty.

Joseph, do you go to movies and LOOK for this stuff on purpose? I suppose you also find pokemon to be occult as well?

As for the game this thread is actually about…I googled it and it seems to still be in production…
 
anon67074017 said:
Did you even watch the video?
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I watched pieces of that video last night, and I have to confess I just don’t get it.

Edit: I’m watching it again even now, and I find a lot of the accusations of intentionally inserting occult symbolism to be extremely over-the-top.

For example, the image of Buzz Lightyear with a “solar/lunar worship” comment is such an incredible stretch that I find this video to be rather calumnious against those who made this film.

How about the pot leaf stuff? Or the images from The Shining? What is the relevance between those things and “occultic symbolism?”

I’m sorry, but the fact that two things are similar is not a valid argument when we’re wanting to demonstrate a relationship between them. 🙂
 
jediliz said:
Only until the picture of the devil flashed after Andy’s mom gives him his hat. I shut it off.

That movie is a harmless sweet movie about friendship and loyalty.

Joseph, do you go to movies and LOOK for this stuff on purpose? I suppose you also find pokemon to be occult as well?

As for the game this thread is actually about…I googled it and it seems to still be in production…
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Yeah it still is, their working on the playable demo now,

as for Joseph, thats typical tin-foil hat stuff, and I do not see any magic in Frozen outside of what I call ‘fairy magic’ this is the kinda ill judgement I’m talking about

‘This looks like this, it feels like this, so I assume thats what it means!’
 
Retro_Ace said:
Yeah it still is, their working on the playable demo now,

as for Joseph, thats typical tin-foil hat stuff, and I do not see any magic in Frozen outside of what I call ‘fairy magic’ this is the kinda ill judgement I’m talking about

‘This looks like this, it feels like this, so I assume thats what it means!’
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As a professional book editor and assistant art director, who has also done a lot of research into mythology (not just the Greek and Roman material), I also have marketing experience. Building worlds, fictional worlds, is what the company I work for does. Sometimes, I’m shown an image of a fictional character and my boss says, “Give me a name.” So, one popped into my head and it reflected the years of experience I’ve had coming up with names for various fictional things. He liked it.

Anyway. I would not want my daughter to be in this situation:

D: “And this Frightening Fiona.”

F: “She doesn’t look frightening. She looks like one of those anime girls.”

D: “That’s her name. She has a Wicked Wardrobe too.”

F: “Why?”

D: “Because she needs it to fight the monsters.”

F: “I don’t like it. How can she be a hero if she uses wicked stuff?”

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
As a professional book editor and assistant art director, who has also done a lot of research into mythology (not just the Greek and Roman material), I also have marketing experience. Building worlds, fictional worlds, is what the company I work for does. Sometimes, I’m shown an image of a fictional character and my boss says, “Give me a name.” So, one popped into my head and it reflected the years of experience I’ve had coming up with names for various fictional things. He liked it.

Anyway. I would not want my daughter to be in this situation:

D: “And this Frightening Fiona.”

F: “She doesn’t look frightening. She looks like one of those anime girls.”

D: “That’s her name. She has a Wicked Wardrobe too.”

F: “Why?”

D: “Because she needs it to fight the monsters.”

F: “I don’t like it. How can she be a hero if she uses wicked stuff?”

Ed
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Well what does she mean by ‘wicked’ the term has been tossed around alot
 
edwest2 said:
As a professional book editor and assistant art director, who has also done a lot of research into mythology (not just the Greek and Roman material), I also have marketing experience. Building worlds, fictional worlds, is what the company I work for does. Sometimes, I’m shown an image of a fictional character and my boss says, “Give me a name.” So, one popped into my head and it reflected the years of experience I’ve had coming up with names for various fictional things. He liked it.

Anyway. I would not want my daughter to be in this situation:

D: “And this Frightening Fiona.”

F: “She doesn’t look frightening. She looks like one of those anime girls.”

D: “That’s her name. She has a Wicked Wardrobe too.”

F: “Why?”

D: “Because she needs it to fight the monsters.”

F: “I don’t like it. How can she be a hero if she uses wicked stuff?”

Ed
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Well first of all, what other name would you give her instead? (seriously), Fiona Frightening is joke name obviously, she clearly is the opposite of frightening, she’s cute

also the term ‘wicked’ can be broad, its not bound by one meaning anymore, not to sound like a hyper relativist, just this is exactly what I am saying you expect designers to say

‘darn I can’t use the word because Wiccans use it’

or

‘oh no I can’t use the word Shaman because Pagan’s use it’

or ‘oh no I can’t use the words Ghoul or Ghost because Pagan’s use it’

like I said this is just saying 'we can’t use ‘stuff’, because other people use ‘stuff’

As Catholics we do not believe symbols or names can be permanently desecrated or not, thats a form of idolatry

We can’t be just ‘triggered’ by a mere words, thats Tumblr SJW logic, Catholics have thicker skin then that

m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-PhQ4RMggw Hopefully this makes my point
 
Retro_Ace said:
As Catholics we do not believe symbols or names can be permanently desecrated or not, thats a form of idolatry
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Let me just check your consistency.

Following your arguments, how comfortable would you be walking around with a swastika t-shirt? Indulge me for a moment, and let’s say you find that symbol incredibly cool looking.

Would you see something wrong with wearing it, or would it just be something you’d choose not to do to avoid getting beat up? Do you think people who would see your swastika and associate it with Nazis would be being ridiculous? Would it just be a matter of saying, “pssh. I don’t care how THEY used this symbol. It’s an ancient symbol, and I use it however I want to?” Do you think folks would buy that line of thinking?
 
Retro_Ace said:
Well what does she mean by ‘wicked’ the term has been tossed around alot
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Mom decides what to buy. I think she’d pick Barbie Dreamhouse Party over anything that has the words frightening or wicked in the title. Or in the game.

Just being honest. Word perception matters a lot. Before deciding whether the product you’re working on has a good chance of being successful, a lot of targeted, pre-production market research needs to be done. You’re only dealing with a very small group of people here.

Best,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Mom decides what to buy. I think she’d pick Barbie Dreamhouse Party over anything that has the words frightening or wicked in the title. Or in the game.

Just being honest. Word perception matters a lot. Before deciding whether the product you’re working on has a good chance of being successful, a lot of targeted, pre-production market research needs to be done. You’re only dealing with a very small group of people here.

Best,
Ed
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Both arguments seem fair, but the intended audience is ones who know better kids and adults (by retro gamers for retro gamers, it’s banjo kazooie type game) me being amongst them, I’m not saying your wife is stupid, I would never, but we can’t just impose our judgements as the best, valid to a degree but not perfect, as for the swastika, I know better than to post a swaistika, everybody knows but we can’t get politically correct either, our own beliefs are silenced by that
 
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