Halloween

[CesarAugustus]

By less expensive, I was talking about the Nativity decorations.

So? Does the strength of our faith rely on how much it’s being advertised on TV? What do we have EWTN for if that’s such a tragedy?

People do that sort of thing all year. Christmas isn’t some special exception. I’ll take the usual phrase “Look For Any Reason To Party” as my argument. It’s not really Christmas or Halloween at stake here. It’s the fact that society is growing increasingly idiotic and lacking priorities.

Please, for the sake of your intellectual integrity, stop complaining that somehow a preference for secular is going to destroy someone’s faith or destroy his/her religion. Going back to the main point, our religion has never even demanded much in the first place in that it makes enjoying the secular side of things impossible.

I really feel concerned over your sympathy towards traditionalist mindsets because some of them breed very alarmist tendencies. (Not to mention, skews people’s perspective into a false dichotomy.)

You are speaking of liking stuff like videogames, writing, reading… nothing wrong with that unless the content is bad or you put them above God.

While, I’m speaking of tendencies enforced over time with a clear purpose in mind.

Is about, people forgetting about our faith, because secularist (or aggressive secularist, I don’t know what name you have for things like Mexican PRI anticatholic government in the past century, liberal (here liberal, is the name of a right wing party with atheistic and anticatholic tendencies) politics, leftist indoctrination, and such) movements, want to banish religion from the map, and specially, their target is Catholicism, so, the media, some schools, and many places, are enforcing that… and onsidering the poor catechetics of some Parishes, you have more easily influenced people, prone to be less and less religious over time.

Again, is not about a preference for secular things… I don’t know if I’m making my point clear…

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Again, is not about a preference for secular things… I don’t know if I’m making my point clear…

And I keep telling you, over and over, that such a thing does not automatically mean it is wrong to engage in secular activities where it is valid. It’s not enough to make a case AGAINST things like Halloween or the more secular aspects of Christmas which you are doing, encouraging, or at least implying on this thread.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

There’s nothing wrong with surrounding religious holidays with festive elements. We are creatures of body and soul, so material festivity like decorations and food and drink (in moderation) are a good supplement to purely religious elements of the holidays. They also help initiate children into the specialness of the holiday while they are still too young to grasp the real meaning intellectually.

(Similar to my statement about other countries copying American customs, I don’t know why some Southern populations would copy our inevitable Northern associations between Christmas and snow, conifers, holly, etc., Wouldn‘t those things just seem foreign and utterly unrelated to the holiday for you guys? But I guess it’s not my call.)

The problem is that between the Protestant Reformation (Halloween) and modern secularization (Christmas, Halloween again, even Easter), people have isolated the supplement from the substance and made festivity an end in itself.

Holidays ought to celebrate something real. Whether it’s a secular holiday like Independence Day in the United States or similar patriotic holidays in most other countries, or religious holidays, there ought to be a meaning. Without a meaning, without a “reason for the season” as they used to say around Christmas, the holiday becomes vapidly empty, nothing more than consumerism and hedonism, or at best a sentimental time for family to do something together for the sake of doing something, anything, together.

I don’t think we need to get rid of all the elements of a holiday that are not explicitly religious, but I also don’t think we should separate the two elements totally in our minds, attempting to celebrate what are in essence two separate holidays at the same time (or almost the same time). We should try to reintegrate the two, to the degree it is possible, endowing the secular elements with meaning and “incarnating” the spiritual elements.

In countries, especially recently Catholic countries, that have their own unique traditional ways of observing All Saints Day and All Souls Day the simple answer might be to reject imported American customs entirely and go back to old ways, if they have not yet become too distant. For the United States and (with some complications) Great Britain and Ireland this is our culture and it does have Catholic roots, even if you have to go back many centuries and through many cultural permutations to find them. I wonder if Catholic families could find a way to restore the connection between treats and praying for the dead. And then there is the movement for kids to dress up as saints. Gothic and harvest elements don’t need to be and probably shouldn’t be entirely abandoned, but it should all be brought together into the observance of All Saints Day and All Souls Day.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Gothic and harvest elements don’t need to be and probably shouldn’t be entirely abandoned, but it should all be brought together into the observance of All Saints Day and All Souls Day.

I don’t see why a country like my own, even if it is just borrowing from America, should discard the fun stuff that is Halloween. In fact, I once saw a costume contest when I was very young and some of the contestants made very impressive horror costumes based on our own country’s folk monsters (e.g. Tikbalang, Kapre, Batibat, White Lady). If anything, the horror aspects of our country takes us closer to our roots too.

I really don’t understand why it would be wrong to have a certain degree of separation when there are no serious conflicts with the religious side. Is it that wrong to go trick-or-treating or attend a costume party then attend mass the next day? I mean, how is that different from attending Midnight Mass and then having a nice, big Christmas dinner party afterwards?

Furthermore, to the whole trying to ‘spiritualize’ the costume culture of Halloween, my agreement with it is only to a certain extent. In fact, I have a thread in Popular Media discussing this.

Religion should never try to substitute for entertainment value and vice-versa. If you really want to dress up as a saint, then more power to you. On the other hand, religious themes are out of the question when it comes to costumes I would want to wear.

Some people really just like to dress as vampires, werewolves, and zombies. Others prefer their favorite fictional characters. It is not in religion’s place to criticize something that has no bearing on their moral views. A fascination for something not religious does not translate to a malformed conscience or sense of spirituality.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I don’t see why a country like my own, even if it is just borrowing from America, should discard the fun stuff that is Halloween. In fact, I once saw a costume contest when I was very young and some of the contestants made very impressive horror costumes based on our own country’s folk monsters (e.g. Tikbalang, Kapre, Batibat, White Lady). If anything, the horror aspects of our country takes us closer to our roots too.

I really don’t understand why it would be wrong to have a certain degree of separation when there are no serious conflicts with the religious side. Is it that wrong to go trick-or-treating or attend a costume party then attend mass the next day? I mean, how is that different from attending Midnight Mass and then having a nice, big Christmas dinner party afterwards?

Furthermore, to the whole trying to ‘spiritualize’ the costume culture of Halloween, my agreement with it is only to a certain extent. In fact, I have a thread in Popular Media discussing this.

Religion should never try to substitute for entertainment value and vice-versa. If you really want to dress up as a saint, then more power to you. On the other hand, religious themes are out of the question when it comes to costumes I would want to wear.

Some people really just like to dress as vampires, werewolves, and zombies. Others prefer their favorite fictional characters. It is not in religion’s place to criticize something that has no bearing on their moral views. A fascination for something not religious does not translate to a malformed conscience or sense of spirituality.

For one thing, I guess I’m not buying the idea that you can superimpose a secular holiday on a religious holiday, leaving the two entirely disconnected, and not take the wind out of the religious holiday. The purely secular aspect of it at the very least takes up a lot of your time on what should be a holy Christian feast, and it also tends to be more stimulating to our senses, easily overshadowing the religious holiday. That’s certainly what has happened on a cultural level, and it often happens on a personal level. Or even if you settle down enough from the Halloween festivities to pray seriously to and for those who have gone before us, you have reduced the time devoted to this with pointless and empty frivolities.

Notice I’m not arguing against having pumpkin pie on Halloween (or whatever is customary in a particular region) or Christmas dinners on Christmas. These things can adorn and enhance rather than compete with a Christian holiday. That’s what I’m getting at. On a Christian holiday, our focus should be Christ, and specifically on whatever is being celebrated on that day. Where the supplemental customs associated with the holiday have become disconnected from their original purpose, they need to be brought back, reintegrated into the whole, so we can be whole and holy people, not compartmentalized and scatterbrained.

“All is lawful” but not everything is helpful.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The purely secular aspect of it at the very least takes up a lot of your time on what should be a holy Christian feast, and it also tends to be more stimulating to our senses, easily overshadowing the religious holiday.

Not necessarily, granted that the religious aspect never takes up that much time to begin with. That’s the beauty of it.

During times when I was in my home province during the October season, it was really customary for all members on my mother’s side to visit my grandfather’s grave. However, the whole thing didn’t really take more than an hour and at least just fifteen minutes to pay our respects.

This doesn’t even change the fact that Halloween takes place prior to All Saint’s Day. There’s plenty of time to have fun on Halloween while Mass next day just takes up one hour.

Or even if you settle down enough from the Halloween festivities to pray seriously to and for those who have gone before us, you have reduced the time devoted to this with pointless and empty frivolities.

First off, time is not even measured in eternity so worrying about the amount of time one prays is kinda moot. Secondly, if we all went our lives “avoiding pointless and frivolities”, we’d all burn out and kill ourselves. That’s really the point of such activities. They’re for fun. And please, face the facts. Religion isn’t always fun. It’s not built for that. Like it or not, people need the secular festive side to cope with that.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Religion is a human thing and, if it’s healthy, takes in every good aspect of human life, the fun and the not so fun. It’s possible to have fun for the sake of God. This is why, yet again, I’m not opposed to fun but to pointless fun, to frivolity that has been divorced from any greater context. That kind of enjoyment is empty, unfulfilling, spiritually unhealthy. It leads us slowly away from God without even noticing at first. A Christian holy day (or the vigil of that day) is the last time we ought to be engaging is such pestilent pastimes.

We are not pure spirits. We can’t reduce our spiritual life to mass and a few other activities and then let our bodies simply follow natural impulses the rest of the day. That’s why we have the Lord’s Day and the rest required on Holy Days of Obligation instead of just requirements to go to mass, so that we can devote the whole day to God. To an extent we ought to be doing the same thing on workdays too, working for God, resting for God, eating for God, etc. Lighthearted enjoyment, humor, these things can also be engaged in for the sake of God. We need to pray always, but not always necessarily by saying prayers. That’s why festivities during or just before a Christian holiday can be a very good thing, but they should be directed in one way or another to the purpose of that holiday, not a distraction from it.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Religion is a human thing and, if it’s healthy, takes in every good aspect of human life, the fun and the not so fun. It’s possible to have fun for the sake of God. This is why, yet again, I’m not opposed to fun but to pointless fun, to frivolity that has been divorced from any greater context. That kind of enjoyment is empty, unfulfilling, spiritually unhealthy. It leads us slowly away from God without even noticing at first. A Christian holy day (or the vigil of that day) is the last time we ought to be engaging is such pestilent pastimes.

I feel like I must really stress this.

Religion is not fun. It’s religion. It is it’s own category and is concerned with things far more serious than being ‘fun’.

Secondly, as far as how traditional rhetoric (which alas you are using right now) describes spirituality, it cannot be use as a substitute for the things you describe as ‘frivolous and pointless’. The current concept of fun cannot be fused with something still so adamantly focused on external expressions of faith.

Furthermore, the fun you deem as ‘pestilent’ is in fact the very thing that keeps people from committing suicide. We’re human beings, not religious robots. It may be disconnected from some higher purpose but it keeps people from burning out and going crazy from trying to attain that purpose (be it in work or religion).

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Maybe we are talking about different things. If by “religion” you mean only the more…how should I put it… vigorous aspects of religion, going to Mass and praying the Rosary and such, then obviously even a monk cannot do these things 24/7, and most people are not called to be monks.

I won’t address your accusations of “rhetoric.” If some things are commonly expressed by Christians maybe it’s because they are true.

I do want to address the idea that serious things cause suicide while trivial pursuits prevent it. I don’t claim to be a psychologist and I’m sure there is a lot of diversity between people who contemplate or commit suicide. But living a vapid life of perpetual distraction seems to me to likely be the fastest path to suicide, or at least one very dangerous path, whereas a life infused with religious purpose takes one away from the brink. This has been my experience to a large degree.

I’m not saying you need to be constantly praying as you eat an ice-cream cone, “Thank you for this ice-cream, God. I wish I could have given you an ice-cream cone on the cross, Jesus. Thank you for dying for me, Jesus. I’m really not worthy to eat this ice-cream, worthless sinner that I am, who have caused you so much suffering, but thank you for blessing me with it nonetheless” etc. An attempt to constantly do this would almost certainly fail, and an obsessive drive to accomplish this kind of constant prayer and hardminded purpose could, I suppose, lead to depression.

What I’m saying is that the general plan of your life should be in the context of your Christian faith, with every part of it, the serious and the lighthearted, kept in their proper context. Sure we can engage it fun activities, but we should be able to say at the end of the day that the whole day was for God (minus whatever sins we committed, obviously).

This path could lead to a “dark night” as we grow spiritually and become more aware of the real nature of our relationship to God, and there is also always the danger of acedia, but these things can’t prompt us to hold ourselves back with trivial distractions. That’s the real path to depression and despair. That’s been my own experience at least.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Back to the topic…

On the news this morning, one of the stupidest lines I’ve heard lately…something along the lines of “The power failure on the East Coast caused by unexpected heavy snow may disrupt Halloween celebrations…”

Hello, priorities much? If your power is out, I would think that going out in freezing weather for a few bits of candy is not even on the list…anyway tomorrow, all the candy is half price.

SMH at news writers…

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Back to the topic…

On the news this morning, one of the stupidest lines I’ve heard lately…something along the lines of “The power failure on the East Coast caused by unexpected heavy snow may disrupt Halloween celebrations…”

Hello, priorities much? If your power is out, I would think that going out in freezing weather for a few bits of candy is not even on the list…anyway tomorrow, all the candy is half price.

SMH at news writers…

Going out in freezing weather is part of the tradition in these parts. Occasionally there’s a warm Halloween, but it’s rare. A lot of costumes include or cover up gloves and hats. Although the weather is supposed to be warmer than recently today. Maybe the snow will melt before the kids start trick-or-treating.

 

[Catholic90]

Going out in freezing weather is part of the tradition in these parts. Occasionally there’s a warm Halloween, but it’s rare. A lot of costumes include or cover up gloves and hats. Although the weather is supposed to be warmer than recently today. Maybe the snow will melt before the kids start trick-or-treating.

When my boys were small, about 1/3 of the years were trick or treating in freezing rain or snow! Costumes were always acquired knowing they would likely have to wear a winter jacket underneath them. Boots, hats, and mittens were also standard trick or treating attire.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Lost Wanderer,

A thought has occurred to me that secular examples might help get across the point I’ve been trying to make about religious purpose.

Most of us have jobs and/or are students. Let’s use the example of a job you have in order to make money. Most of the time while you are at work you are not explicitly thinking about earning money. You are thinking about the task at hand, and rightly so. But if anyone asked you what you are doing it for you could truthfully say it’s for money. Similar situation with getting an education/degree and any given moment at class or doing homework.

When you are sitting down to Christmas dinner, you may not have the Nativity specifically in your mind. Your thoughts may well be about food, drink, family, some relatively minor topic being discussed at the table, etc. But if a Tibetan Buddhist visited and asked what the purpose of the feast was, you could hopefully truthfully say, without having to think about it, that it’s to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

In my opinion, festivities on or around All Saints Day should be similarly directed towards the purpose of the feast. As you carve a pumpkin or distribute goodies to children you might not be contemplating the virtues of St. Albatros of Phetherdelphia, but if anyone asked you the purpose of the festivities you could hopefully say without having to think about it that it’s to honor the Christians who have gone before us in faith.

To go back to the example of a job, one proximate reason for working will almost certainly be for money, but hopefully there are other, higher purposes that set that immediate purpose in context, like ordering the secular world in a good way and, ultimately overarching every other purpose, the service of God. If during times of prayer you have explicitly dedicated your work to God, have asked him to guide you so that your life works to his purpose, etc., then that intention remains implicit even when you are not explicitly thinking about it, and you will know instantly upon being asked that the real reason you are working is God.

Same with every other area of our life, including the lighthearted ones.

 

[Mickey]

living a vapid life of perpetual distraction seems to me to likely be the fastest path to suicide, or at least one very dangerous path, whereas a life infused with religious purpose takes one away from the brink. This has been my experience to a large degree.

Indeed.

 

[Mickey]

Our purpose on this earth…our meaning for existence…the reason for our being…is to praise and worship God in every aspect of our short lives. This can be formal prayer…or prayer of the heart. St Paul tells us to pray unceasingly. Each year, I see every possible reason set forth to justify the recognition and celebration of secular/pagan halloween with all it’s demonic overtones. Sadly, our children are indoctrinated and desensitized to this occultic event from the earliest of years. The most oft repeated justification is always, “its harmless fun.” That is a great deception of the evil one.

May God have mercy on our souls.

 

[EasterJoy]

I feel like I must really stress this.

Religion is not fun. It’s religion. It is it’s own category and is concerned with things far more serious than being ‘fun’.

Secondly, as far as how traditional rhetoric (which alas you are using right now) describes spirituality, it cannot be use as a substitute for the things you describe as ‘frivolous and pointless’. The current concept of fun cannot be fused with something still so adamantly focused on external expressions of faith.

Furthermore, the fun you deem as ‘pestilent’ is in fact the very thing that keeps people from committing suicide. We’re human beings, not religious robots. It may be disconnected from some higher purpose but it keeps people from burning out and going crazy from trying to attain that purpose (be it in work or religion).

I would go even farther than you do.

I am in the other camp, the one that says that religion–that is our relationship with God and how it guides our relationships with everything and everyone else–absolutely includes our fun. If your fun and your religion never meet, I think you’re holding out on Heaven!

Consider this scene from Holy Scriptures:

"At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.” Matt. 18:1-5

Now let’s note, people: Our Lord did not say “unless you make your little children into adults, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven”! No! He cautioned the adults that they had to be willing to become like children again…and little children, at that!

Let us be entirely honest, here. What is the biggest difference between a child and an adult? What makes a little child heaven to be around? It is that a little child laughs easily, forgives easily, loves easily. A child is still open enough to have the simple ability to have fun. A child is not too proud to give in to the frivilous side of being a human being. In fact, if a child is robbed of their innocent willingness to have fun, if they are too given to do what is serious all of the time, we say that the poor little person was “robbed of her childhood.”

If you are too proud to have fun, ask yourself: Are you truly willing to be like a little child? Or are you above that? Are you welcoming to little children, or forbidding? That may be a point worthy of some self-examination.

If you have fun that excludes God, though…ask yourself about that, too. Why is the little child in you not on the lap of Our Lord? Why do you not associate God with fun? Why do you think you have to live a double life in order to be a full human being? That is a point worth exploring, as well.

 

[Corki]

We interrupt this annual Halloween-bashing to wish everyone at CAF a very

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!

My house is all decorated and the only thing remotely occult is a black cat. Since I have owned several live black cats, I refuse to see any evil in them.

My kids are too old for Trick-or-Treating but we are anxiously awaiting the dressed-up darlings that will ring our bell. The little ones are the cutest and most numerous but lately we have been seeing groups of teens who come out dressed in a group theme. Last year there was a great bunch of high school pirates. What a great, safe way to have fun with your friends! (Note to self: pick up some extra candy) There are usually a few groups that hook up a trailer to a pick up and load it with hay and trick-or-treaters. With the houses farther apart, this is much safer (and more fun) especially for the little ones.

If the devil tries to sneak in, we will laugh at him. He holds no power over us! He cannot use good clean fun against us! He cannot make me compartmentalize my faith!

And tomorrow, due to schedules with my kids, I will probably be at Mass twice to celebrate the Church Triumphant. Then on to the third day to commemorate the Church Suffering on All Souls.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!

 

[Mickey]

If the devil tries to sneak in, we will laugh at him.

Really?

He holds no power over us! He cannot use good clean fun against us!

There is nothing good or clean about it. It is the devil who will be laughing.

 

[Corki]

There is nothing good or clean about it.

Unless you have been to Halloween in my little town, let alone at my house, it is very presumptuous of you to say something like that.

I have no doubt that there are some people who pervert their Halloween celebrations into something unsavory. But that doesn’t affect me or mine in any way.

If you don’t want to enjoy the celebration, that’s your own thing. But don’t spoil the fun for those that do - especially the little ones.