hamba2han's Quranic challange

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Jihad means struggle, not ‘war’, however war is a legitimate form for jihad.

Moslems believe that any ‘insult’ against Islam is an attack on it, and can be met with jihad.

Thus this forum itself, which produces criticism of Islam is seen as a threat. Such discussion would not be tolerated in public in Moslem nations.

If you have a respectful conversation, we don’t mind that at all, but if you insult, then we consider this an attack, because our symbols are extremely valuable for us.
46. And argue not with the people of the Book except with what is best as an argument, but argue not at all with such of them as are unjust. And say, `We believe in that which has been revealed to us and that which has been revealed to you; and our God and your God is One, and to HIM we submit.’

 

[Montalban]

If you have a respectful conversation, we don’t mind that at all, but if you insult, then we consider this an attack, because our symbols are extremely valuable for us.

That’s the problem with Islam, any ‘criticism’ is an insult. You simply give monologue, expect people to believe it, and that’s the end of the discussion.

1. And argue not with the people of the Book except with what is best as an argument, but argue not at all with such of them as are unjust. And say, `We believe in that which has been revealed to us and that which has been revealed to you; and our God and your God is One, and to HIM we submit.’

Which is the same thing re-stated. That’s why Islam fails to appeal to the intellect… it can’t handle the light of discrimination upon it.

 

[Montalban]

Muhammed is known to have lead battles. He over-saw the execution of PoWs. He applauded the murder of his enemies…

Here’s someting I cited on another thread which demonstrates his approval of untruths in order to murder someone
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

 

[Verisimilitude]

I am here to conversate, and if I have any misconceptions, please clarify them for me. As for Jihad, and why it was sanctioned, click here

Christ died for the sins of the World, hell has already been defeated. Your duty as you see it is unnecessary.

Is this the way you preach your religion? What an attractive way!

Is it any less attractive than dhimmitude and death?

I see the interpolations in the Bible very clearly, I have no doubt in them. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) shared with all prophets (Peace be upon them) before him that they were all sent by God.

It was not God who called Mohamed. Can you explain why you think He did? The spirit in the cave never identified itself, but Kadijas old uncle did say it was from God. He was wrong, but Mohamed believed him,

God gave it to the Jews when they were believers, but when they broke God’s covenant, they no longer have any right in it. But we are talking here about your faith sanctioning killing the disbelievers, so you can’t object on Islam, isn’t God’s word eternal?

My faith does not sanction killing anyone. Quote the NT if you think so. As far as the OT goes, the santions you think apply to me do not, but to the Jews of that time. They did what God told them to inherit the land they were promised, and lived in it for over 1000 years before Christ was born. Of course Gods word is eternal. Read it and see the limitiations and conditions that were put on the Jews.

I don’t know if my God sanctioned this for the Jews or not, if He really did, then He is my God who was talking in that verse, otherwise, it’s an interpolation.

You just said above you see interpolations in the Bible very clearly. Why not here?

Weren’t you still saying that God’s word is eternal?

Quote any OT verse that says the Jews were to continue killing their neighbors for ever in order to stay in favor with God.

This was because Judaism wasn’t universal, while Islam was.

You should try and understand why God chose the Jews to begin with. Why he cut them off from the rest of humanity by making them pure in both body and spirit is the answer to all of your questions.

That purity cumlminated into one Jewish girl, Mary, who God then made with child, Christ the Lord. Christ is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. Judiasm was not universally practiced because it served Gods purpose to keep His message without error for the time- which is why we can trust the OT writings as they have been preserved faithfully.

The message of Christ is universal and forever. He told the Apostles to preach to the whole world, and they have been. 600 years after Jesus, Mohamed was introduced to many different religions to include both Judaism and Christianity as well as the 358 other ‘gods’ in the city his family was charged with keeping open to all travelers.

Mohamed could not read the stories, and relied on people to tell them to him. The spirit that revealed the Quran to him lied, and took advantage of Mohameds ignorance.

Your prophet was not a prophet, and has no authority to speak for God.

I am not preaching my religion- to do that I suggest you go to a Catholic Church if you are free to do so to get religion that way. I might differ from my fellow Catholics in some ways. They likley hold closer to the Word and turn the other cheek when the faith is abused by things like Islam. But turning the other cheek does not mean I need spread them and be violated in my own house as it were.

Since the spirit in the cave never identified itself as Gabriel, how do you know it is trustworthy? It is the things that spirit said for Mohamed to say and do that makes me sure it is not a spirit sent by God.

Mohamed was deceived, and you have been misled.

 

[inJESUS]

Ibn Taymiya, the hadith talks about Allah reciting some surah. It surely does not mean he was taught them in order to recite them.

As to Allah breaking the covenant with Jews, this does NOT mean His Word was corrupt first because Jesus did not teach such a thing and second because your prophet made sure that Jews SHOULD live by their scriptures.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

That’s the problem with Islam, any ‘criticism’ is an insult. You simply give monologue, expect people to believe it, and that’s the end of the discussion.

As I told you, Islam doesn’t disagree with dialogue, the verse is clear, but what we disagree, is the insult, for example, you come and ask questions about Islam politely, we don’t have a problem about that, but to act as those filthy danish painters, that’s what we will never ever accept.

As for Killing Ibn Al Ashraf, I see that you are going offtopic, but no problem I will answer you, this man was a traitor, who broke the treaty with Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and kept on insulting him and stimulating Quraish for revenge after their defeat in Badr, he kept on insulting Muslim women, so he clearly broke the treaty Muhammad (Peace be upon him) made with the Jews, and was a traitor that must be killed. And when he was killed, the Jews didn’t object, and Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn’t blame them, for Islam tells us to be fair.

BTW, you are a member at Christian forums, aren’t you? I am MK11.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Christ died for the sins of the World, hell has already been defeated. Your duty as you see it is unnecessary.

Is it any less attractive than dhimmitude and death?

Well, read the link I gave you about that case.

It was not God who called Mohamed. Can you explain why you think He did? The spirit in the cave never identified itself, but Kadijas old uncle did say it was from God. He was wrong, but Mohamed believed him,

Yes, it was God who sent Muhammad (Peace be upon him), besides it was the angel Gabriel, and there have been hadiths telling that he knew him, as for the hadith of Waraqa, he was right as he knew that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the final Prophet sent by God from the prophecies, which the Bible still tells about, although there have been much effort to hide them, but there are still some prophecies. Many Jews and Christians testified that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the Prophet foretold in the Torah and Gospel.

My faith does not sanction killing anyone. Quote the NT if you think so. As far as the OT goes, the santions you think apply to me do not, but to the Jews of that time. They did what God told them to inherit the land they were promised, and lived in it for over 1000 years before Christ was born. Of course Gods word is eternal. Read it and see the limitiations and conditions that were put on the Jews.

Wasn’t Jesus the one who ordered the Jews to kill unbelievers as you believe? Why did he change his mind? Besides, Jesus told that he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill, as it is written in your Matthew.

You just said above you see interpolations in the Bible very clearly. Why not here?

I didn’t mean that I know every interpolation in the Bible, I only meant that the Bible is very clear for me to have been interpolated.

Quote any OT verse that says the Jews were to continue killing their neighbors for ever in order to stay in favor with God.

Read the book of Deuteronomy.

 

[inJESUS]

Well, read the link I gave you about that case.

Yes, it was God who sent Muhammad (Peace be upon him), besides it was the angel Gabriel, and there have been hadiths telling that he knew him, as for the hadith of Waraqa, he was right as he knew that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the final Prophet sent by God from the prophecies,  which the Bible still tells about, although there have been much effort to hide them, but there are still some prophecies. Many Jews and Christians testified that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the Prophet foretold in the Torah and Gospel.

millions of muslims believe Ghulah Ahmad is the Mahdi and Messiah mentioned in previous scriptures. Does the fact that these people aknowledge hm as a messiah/mahdi prove that he is? what it proves is that they are all mistaken since he manipulated scriptures to his own benefit.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Ibn Taymiya, the hadith talks about Allah reciting some surah. It surely does not mean he was taught them in order to recite them.

As to Allah breaking the covenant with Jews, this does NOT mean His Word was corrupt first because Jesus did not teach such a thing and second because your prophet made sure that Jews SHOULD live by their scriptures.

Reciting means to memorize and learn, and that’s how the Arabic word “Qara’a” was used, and if you looked at the context, the narrator Anas Ibn Malik was talking about the stages this man went on after he became a Muslim.

Allah didn’t break the covenant with the Jews, it is the Jews who broke the covenant, so it was taken from them because they no more deserve it. As for Bible corruption, this is an individual subject, and we may discuss it one day.
And what are you talking about what Muhammad(Peace be upon him) said? I don’t get what you mean, you mean that he didn’t say that they interpolated their scriptures? well, you’d better read this.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Everyone;
I have not posted for a while.

I have posted this several times but you seem to have missed it every time.

Bukhari Volume 4 Hadith 814
3421. It is related that Anas said, “There was a Christian man who became Muslim and recited al-Baqara and Al-'Imran. He used to act as a scribe for the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Then he reverted to being a Christian and he used to say, ‘Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him.’ Allah made him die and they buried him. In the morning, the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They dug our companion up and threw him out.’ So they dug a very deep grave and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They threw him out.’ So they dug a grave for him as deep as they could and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. So they knew that it was not done by people so they left him [there].”

The above Hadith must be true. It captures one of the desperate attempts the people of the book (In this case a Christian) made to throw doubts into the minds of the early Muslims, by first embracing Islam than leaving it under the pretense that it is false, with the final goal being to turn people from Islam and stop the spread of the new religion. This “apostate” could not cop with Surat Al Baqarah and Al Imran because it is there where the divinity of Jesus is denied along with him being crucified, it was too much for him to bear, so he reverted back to his former faith and tried to discredit the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Did he succeed? of course no.

The Jews adopted the same tactic: embrace Islam en mass, then leave it en mass and start disseminating falsehood to disorientate the Muslim community and turn those they can turn from the new religion, which prompted the Holy Prophet (PBUH) to promulgate the apostasy law to protect the community from the same type hypocrites which would think about adopting the same tactics.

What we have in the Hadith is a bright example of sheer hypocrisy; it reminds me of the nowadays Muslim apostates and “former Muslims” who haunt the Web with the same desperate attempts: same goals, different means in different times, Subhan’Allah. “They want to extinguish Allah’s [guiding] light with their utterances, but Allah will not allow [this to pass], for He has willed to spread His light in all its fullness, however hateful this may be to all who deny the truth”. Qur’an 9:32

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

millions of muslims believe Ghulah Ahmad is the Mahdi and Messiah mentioned in previous scriptures. Does the fact that these people aknowledge hm as a messiah/mahdi prove that he is? what it proves is that they are all mistaken since he manipulated scriptures to his own benefit…

Well, even Jews and Christians who were at the age of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) acknowledged that he is the one foretold in the scriptures ALTHOUGH they didn’t believe in him for their own ego as Huyayy Ibn Akhtab, Heraclius of Romans and Najran delegation, if this was really for their own benefit, they would have followed him, but this wasn’t the direction of their benefit, as their benefit was to not follow him, so they acknowledged that he is a prophet but their benefits prevented them from converting to Islam, and some of them kept on fighting him as Huyayy ibn Akhtab. Besides, there are still prophecies foretelling about him within the Bible.

 

[inJESUS]

Reciting means to memorize and learn, and that’s how the Arabic word “Qara’a” was used, and if you looked at the context, the narrator Anas Ibn Malik was talking about the stages this man went on after he became a Muslim

.not that am interested in this particular hadith, but my point was that reciting does not mean having learnt it previously. We can recite what we write.

the criteria to decide which verse is the word of Allah and which is not was never ever based on style/eloquence but on isnad. This fact alone is enough for me ; just to let you know am not interested in a particular hadith when history is there.

. As for Bible corruption, this is an individual subject, and we may discuss it one day.

 

[inJESUS]

Well, even Jews and Christians who were at the age of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) acknowledged that he is the one foretold in the scriptures

“some Jews” and some “Nasara” NOT Christians. There is a difference. A nasrani to a Christian is like a JW to a Christian. This is another topic.

The same happened with Ghulam Ahmad. Some, if not millions of Muslims thought he is the awaited Mahdi. These are called heretics and are persecuted for Ahmad’s sake and still believe what he told them.This does not make it correct. They are all wrong and you agree.

Besides, there are still prophecies foretelling about him within the Bible.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Well, even Jews and Christians who were at the age of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) acknowledged that he is the one foretold in the scriptures **ALTHOUGH they didn’t believe in him for their own ego as Huyayy Ibn Akhtab, Heraclius of Romans and Najran delegation, if this was really for their own benefit, they would have followed him, but this wasn’t the direction of their benefit, as their benefit was to not follow him, so they acknowledged that he is a prophet but their benefits prevented them from converting to Islam, and some of them kept on fighting him as Huyayy ibn Akhtab. Besides, there are still prophecies foretelling about him within the Bible.

So muslim sources claim.

The Jews do not believe Christ is the Messiah foretold in the Scriptures, and so they are still waiting.

The Christians aren’t waiting for anyone foretold in the Scriptures, which should be the case, if what you say was true.

How do you explain the descrepency?

Maybe you might post a thread on the supposed prophecies on your prophet in the Scritptures, so you might be enlightened otherwise.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Everyone;
I have not posted for a while.

The above Hadith must be true.

Just to say that it is not a Hadith as I mentioned mistakenly.

 

[Anacletus]

It got to be in Arabic to compare.

I posted to Hamba the site

suralikeit.com/

for him to compare, with the challenge that if he couldn’t prove they weren’t suras like it, then he’d admit challenge met. Otherwise we could interpret his silence as admission, and ignore any future repitions of his charge.

It should be noted that there is one particular book that has all the Muslims scrambling :

amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1579211755/sr=8-1/qid=1102389821/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_5/002-0491962-4642452?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=byExactRating%5F5&qid=1102389821&sr=8-1#customerReviews

I find it funny that the vast majority (if not all) of the reviewers of that book on Amazon.com are Muslims, and they did an amazon bomb in order to lower the books ratings. I didn’t go through all of the reviews, to be sure, but it looks like no christian has as of yet reviewed it (although I could be wrong). Isn’t that just status quo? Christians don’t care and the muslims are all worked up.

In any case, IIRC the book was put out by a protestant convert from Islam as an answer to the challenge in the Qur’an to “produce a surah like it”. In my opinion the challenge is utterly assinine (yet another strike against the Qur’an and the “religion” it proposes) because the contest is far to subjective to be even remotely fair.

Still, it is worth noting that Shaykh Muhammad Nur Abdullah, world renowed shaykh, previously President of ISNA, and recently retired from his post of Imam of the Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis, considered the “challenge” to have been met by Al Saffee. He brought up the subject in his Jumuah Khutbah a few years ago (when I was still muslim).

 

[Anacletus]

Yes, it was God who sent Muhammad (Peace be upon him), besides it was the angel Gabriel, and there have been hadiths telling that he knew him, as for the hadith of Waraqa, he was right as he knew that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the final Prophet sent by God from the prophecies, which the Bible still tells about, although there have been much effort to hide them, but there are still some prophecies. Many Jews and Christians testified that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the Prophet foretold in the Torah and Gospel.

So says Muhammad, and no one else who doesn’t follow him. There are no biblical passages that provide any evidence for the “coming of muhammad”. If anything, those can be chalked up to the general muslim practice to misinterpret to benefit Islam.

I listened to a few CD’s of anwar al-awlaki once, specifically his life of Muhammad, “The Meccan Years”. It’s an impressive work, 16 cds, I believe. One of them purports to contain biblical “prophecies” of muhammad. Of course, it is perfectly obvious in listening to that particular lecture that Anwar has no idea what on earth he is talking about. His attempt to connect Makkah with Paran I found to be particularly humorous.

Wasn’t Jesus the one who ordered the Jews to kill unbelievers as you believe? Why did he change his mind? Besides, Jesus told that he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill, as it is written in your Matthew.

The fulfillment of the Law in the Paschal Sacrifice. Obviously biblical exegesis isn’t your strong point.

I didn’t mean that I know every interpolation in the Bible, I only meant that the Bible is very clear for me to have been interpolated.

Even if it was, would it even matter? As St. Paul says, “The Letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life”. Even if some historical errors did exist they would pale in comparison to the intact Spiritual Message preserved in the bible. You’re judging the bible as the sole basis of christianity, which is an utterly aberrant assertion from a Catholic standpoint. The Revelation of God is Himself in Christ, carried on throughoutt the tradition of the Church. Furthermore, Jesus also points out (in Matthew, I believe) that the “gates of Hell will never triumph over the Church”. As such, the Bible itself and the Catholic Tradition of the Church have recieved what amounts to a Divine stamp of “nihil obstat” on the front cover, as it were.

Read the book of Deuteronomy.

I’m having more fun reading the Sirah and accounts of prophetically directed assassinations and mass killings. It’s funny you should mention mass killings of Jews, as mahmud apparently knew alot about that.

 

[inJESUS]

Anacletus, you were Muslim?

 

[Montalban]

As I told you, Islam doesn’t disagree with dialogue, the verse is clear, but what we disagree, is the insult, for example, you come and ask questions about Islam politely, we don’t have a problem about that, but to act as those filthy danish painters, that’s what we will never ever accept.

As for Killing Ibn Al Ashraf, I see that you are going offtopic, but no problem I will answer you, this man was a traitor, who broke the treaty with Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and kept on insulting him and stimulating Quraish for revenge after their defeat in Badr, he kept on insulting Muslim women, so he clearly broke the treaty Muhammad (Peace be upon him) made with the Jews, and was a traitor that must be killed. And when he was killed, the Jews didn’t object, and Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn’t blame them, for Islam tells us to be fair.

So a person who breaks the treaty deserves death, and you can lie about it in order to lure him into that murder. Cool. Now we agree with something about Islam.

And seeing that Muhammed had these people murdered you think that when people don’t object that’s signs of approval? They may have ‘submitted’ to Islamic terror.

BTW, you are a member at Christian forums, aren’t you? I am MK11.

Yes I am (always as Montalban), but I was spreading myself out too thinly, so am just here now, for the time being. At one stage I was debating on three different fora at once.

 

[Montalban]

Salaam Everyone;

Submission to you, too!

The above Hadith must be true.

Of course!

It captures one of the desperate attempts the people of the book (In this case a Christian) made to throw doubts into the minds of the early Muslims, by first embracing Islam than leaving it under the pretense that it is false, with the final goal being to turn people from Islam and stop the spread of the new religion. This “apostate” could not cop with Surat Al Baqarah and Al Imran because it is there where the divinity of Jesus is denied along with him being crucified, it was too much for him to bear, so he reverted back to his former faith and tried to discredit the Holy Prophet. Did he succeed? of course no.

The Jews adopted the same tactic: embrace Islam en mass, then leave it en mass and start disseminating falsehood to disorientate the Muslim community and turn those they can turn from the new religion, which prompted the Holy Prophet to promulgate the apostasy law to protect the community from the same type hypocrites which would think about adopting the same tactics.

What we have in the Hadith is a bright example of sheer hypocrisy; it reminds me of the nowadays Muslim apostates and “former Muslims” who haunt the Web with the same desperate attempts: same goals, different means in different times, Subhan’Allah. “They want to extinguish Allah’s [guiding] light with their utterances, but Allah will not allow [this to pass], for He has willed to spread His light in all its fullness, however hateful this may be to all who deny the truth”. Qur’an 9:32

That’s the problem with Islamic hate. Christians and Jews are depicted as essentially deceptive.