hamba2han's Quranic challange

[hamba2han]

So in other words, everyone is insincere but muslims.

I meant people like the presenters of the suralikeit.com/ website who have clearly shown their insincerity by brazenly copying portions of the Qur’an and hadiths and then rearranging the verses together to form their “new” suras.

Every one of us should be able to assess for ourselves whether or not we are sincere in our desire to seek the Truth with regard to examining the Qur’an in order to determine it’s veracity and inimitability.

If you yourself feel that you have sincerely and honestly met the challenge of the Qur’an, then more power to you.

 

[Booklover]

I meant people like the presenters of the suralikeit.com/ website who have clearly shown their insincerity by brazenly copying portions of the Qur’an and hadiths and then rearranging the verses together to form their “new” suras.

Every one of us should be able to assess for ourselves whether or not we are sincere in our desire to seek the Truth with regard to examining the Qur’an in order to determine it’s veracity and inimitability.

If you yourself feel that you have sincerely and honestly met the challenge of the Qur’an, then more power to you.

Who are you trying to convince of the truth of the Quran, yourselves or us?? You believe that the challenge cannot be met, so why bring it up in the first place? This is another example of the circular reasoning that is such a big part of “proving” Islam’s and the Quran’s validity!

What if God had asked us to produce a universe better than his?? Could you meet that challenge?? Can you not see the illogic?
For all your worship of God, your understanding of him is that he’s either a megalomaniac or a complete fool!

Vickie

 

[Zooey]

I agree. If forced to the choice, I’d take Tolkien over Muhammad as a prophet any day!

Edwin

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hamba,
The sura like it challenge has been met already. You just don’t realize it. The Bukhari sahih hadith report that an unnamed Christian convert to Islam wrote al-Baqarah and al-Imran and then apostatized, saying, “Muhammad knows nothing except what I wrote for him.”

This proves that this Christian scribe probably wrote 2 surahs like it - al-Baqarah and al-Imran.

The challenge has already been met. You just won’t admit it, that’s all.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamba,
The sura like it challenge has been met already. You just don’t realize it. The Bukhari sahih hadith report that an unnamed Christian convert to Islam wrote al-Baqarah and al-Imran and then apostatized, saying, “Muhammad knows nothing except what I wrote for him.”

This proves that this Christian scribe probably wrote 2 surahs like it - al-Baqarah and al-Imran.

The challenge has already been met. You just won’t admit it, that’s all.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Kindly post the hadith that you have mentioned in order for us to examine it.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I have posted this several times but you seem to have missed it every time.

Bukhari Volume 4 Hadith 814
3421. It is related that Anas said, “There was a Christian man who became Muslim and recited al-Baqara and Al-'Imran. He used to act as a scribe for the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Then he reverted to being a Christian and he used to say, ‘Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him.’ Allah made him die and they buried him. In the morning, the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They dug our companion up and threw him out.’ So they dug a very deep grave and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. They said, ‘This is the work of Muhammad and his Companions since he fled from them. They threw him out.’ So they dug a grave for him as deep as they could and in the morning the earth had thrown him up. So they knew that it was not done by people so they left him [there].”

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

This is another translation:

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:
There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them.” They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them.” They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground).

This hadith seems to be suggesting he wrote al-Baqarah and al-Imran for Muhammad - who wouldn’t have known these surahs if he hadn’t written it for him.

 

[hamba2han]

This is another translation:

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:
There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them.” They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them.” They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground).

This hadith seems to be suggesting he wrote al-Baqarah and al-Imran for Muhammad - who wouldn’t have known these surahs if he hadn’t written it for him.

What this hadith is really stating is that the ground would not accept the man’s body after he had been buried and subsequently threw his body out of the grave repeatedly.

This is the fate that befell someone who became a Muslim and then committed such a grievous sin of leaving Islam and then spreading a dastardly lie against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an.

This is the testimony of the earth on the Truth of Islam.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

hamba2han

You’ve gone too far - go back a bit. It’s this bit here:

There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: **“Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” **

He probably wrote Surat al-Baqarah and al-Imran since Muhammad wouldn’t know them but what this scribe had written for him.

Hence the surah-like-it challenge has been met. You just won’t admit it but I’m sure others here will see it.

 

[Booklover]

What this hadith is really stating is that the ground would not accept the man’s body after he had been buried and subsequently threw his body out of the grave repeatedly.

This is the fate that befell someone who became a Muslim and then committed such a grievous sin of leaving Islam and then spreading a dastardly lie against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an.

This is the testimony of the earth on the Truth of Islam.

Are you serious?? This belongs in the realm of fantasy and nightmares! Is this what you call sound reasoning?

What proof do you have that the man was lying? Your totally blind faith in Muhammad?

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

Are you serious?? This belongs in the realm of fantasy and nightmares! Is this what you call sound reasoning?

What proof do you have that the man was lying? Your totally blind faith in Muhammad?

First off, why do you choose to believe only the part of the hadith about what the man claimed that it was he who wrote the two suras of the Qur’an but not the part about the eye-witness accounts of his body being thrown out of the grave?

Second, what proof do you have that the man was telling the truth? Your totally blind hatred of Muhammad (pbuh)?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

hamba2han
There were no eyewitness to the earth throwing the man’s body out. It is just an expression - meaning the body was no longer buried. Someone must have dug the body out as it happened at night.

It was probably the work of mischievous, vengeful, and spiteful Muslims.

You are just trying your hardest to avoid the unpleasant (to you) realization that the ‘sura-like-it’ challenge had been met already.

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han
There were no eyewitness to the earth throwing the man’s body out. It is just an expression - meaning the body was no longer buried. Someone must have dug the body out as it happened at night.

It was probably the work of mischievous, vengeful, and spiteful Muslims.

Muslims, especially those at the time of Muhammad (pbuh), do not dig out graves and throw the body out because it is sinful to do this even to the enemies of Islam.

If you can believe that the sea can be split apart as happened during the Exodus, why then should it be so difficult to believe that the earth can throw a body out from it’s grave?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

We will never know who did it. They could have been Muslims or someone else. Perhaps the Christian scribe had other enemies. What the hadith shows is that somehow the body was dug up from the grave. They thought it might have been Muslims but then decided in the end that it was not by human hands - perhaps they just gave up digging graves for him. But the fact that they suspected it was the Muslims show that it wasn’t such a far-fetched idea after all. You have no evidence that Muslims do not do such a thing. After all, they did hate the man for apostatizing from Islam and telling everyone that that he wrote al-Baqarah and al-Imran for Muhammad. It must have been very embarrassing for Muhammad to have one of his scribes tell everyone his secret (i.e. that the scribe was the source of 2 surahs instead of Allah).

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

How do you know it is sinful for a Muslim to dig up an enemy’s grave and toss out the body? It’s not in the Quran or hadith as far as I know. Muhammad was entirely silent on that issue.

 

[hamba2han]

Muslims should respect the graves of non-Muslims. The Islamic point of view does not differentiate between the grave of a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Graves should be treated in the light of the Quranic verse: “Surely we have honored the children of Adam…” (Al-‘Israa’: 70) The application of this verse is so general to include Muslims and non-Muslims.

In this context, we recall the incident that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stayed behind, after the Battle of Badr, to supervise the burial of all the unbelievers who had been killed in battle.

In any case, the eye-witness accounts of the apostate in question was that the ground threw his body out on no less than 3 separate occassions and they themselves eventually believed that it could not have been the work of human beings.

And so, since they themselves witnessed this strange occurrence on 3 consecutive days, is there a reason then for anyone to doubt their conclusion that it was not done by human beings?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

hamba2han:

Muslims should respect the graves of non-Muslims. The Islamic point of view does not differentiate between the grave of a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Graves should be treated in the light of the Quranic verse: “Surely we have honored the children of Adam…” (Al-‘Israa’: 70) The application of this verse is so general to include Muslims and non-Muslims.

Please don’t tell porkies. That verse does not talk about desecration of graves.

You did not give the full verse and the context.

hamba2han:

In this context, we recall the incident that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stayed behind, after the Battle of Badr, to supervise the burial of all the unbelievers who had been killed in battle.

So what? That does not mean muslims did not desecrate the grave of someone they really hate.

hamba2han:

In any case, the eye-witness accounts of the apostate in question was that the ground threw his body out on no less than 3 separate occassions and they themselves eventually believed that it could not have been the work of human beings.

Nobody saw the earth throw the body out. That is only an expression. They did think it was the Muslims though - read the hadith again. Then they believed it couldn’t have been human - that is only a belief because they gave up.

BTW: as a Muslim do you think Allah could not have caused the earth to throw out the body? Yes or No.

hamba2han:

And so, since they themselves witnessed this strange occurrence on 3 consecutive days, is there a reason then for anyone to doubt their conclusion that it was not done by human beings?

So what? All you’ve shown is the persistence of whomever did it. Not in any supernatural agency.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Muslims should respect the graves of non-Muslims. The Islamic point of view does not differentiate between the grave of a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Graves should be treated in the light of the Quranic verse: “Surely we have honored the children of Adam…” (Al-‘Israa’: 70) The application of this verse is so general to include Muslims and non-Muslims.

And never (O Muhammad SAW) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and died while they were Fasiqoon (rebellious, - disobedient to Allah and His Messenger SAW).
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #84)

In this context, we recall the incident that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stayed behind, after the Battle of Badr, to supervise the burial of all the unbelievers who had been killed in battle.

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said: O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rab’ila, O Shaiba b. Rabi’a, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Then’he commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr. (Book #040, Hadith #6869)~ Sahih Muslim

Rotting for 3 days and then thrown in a well is supervising and respect for unbvelievers?

In any case, the eye-witness accounts of the apostate in question was that the ground threw his body out on no less than 3 separate occassions and they themselves eventually believed that it could not have been the work of human beings.

And so, since they themselves witnessed this strange occurrence on 3 consecutive days, is there a reason then for anyone to doubt their conclusion that it was not done by human beings?

You are wrong on the first two counts and the myth and lore of the third is just fodder to support the illogical, bigoted claim of Moslem superiority.

 

[Booklover]

First off, why do you choose to believe only the part of the hadith about what the man claimed that it was he who wrote the two suras of the Qur’an but not the part about the eye-witness accounts of his body being thrown out of the grave?

Second, what proof do you have that the man was telling the truth? Your totally blind hatred of Muhammad (pbuh)?

Do you have proof that the man lied? Where is the proof?

No, my hatred of Muhammad is not blind. I see him for what he really was, an evil man who has brought more death and destruction to the world than anyone else has and the evil continues. You live in denial of all the horrible things that he did or had done in the name of his false god Allah! You believe in the fairytales instead of the truth. Wake up!

Your reply shows how you really feel about anyone who disagrees with Muhammad:

“This is the fate that befell someone who became a Muslim and then committed such a grievous sin of leaving Islam and then spreading a dastardly lie against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an.”

Vickie

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And never (O Muhammad SAW) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and died while they were Fasiqoon (rebellious, - disobedient to Allah and His Messenger SAW).
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #84)

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said: O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rab’ila, O Shaiba b. Rabi’a, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Then’he commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr. (Book #040, Hadith #6869)~ Sahih Muslim

Rotting for 3 days and then thrown in a well is supervising and respect for unbvelievers?

You are wrong on the first two counts and the myth and lore of the third is just fodder to support the illogical, bigoted claim of Moslem superiority.

And he STILL hasn’t answered the question about distinguishing between the dead Christian and the prophet.

Whether the earth spit out the body can be dismissed as myth, but the charge that the muslims couldn’t distinguish the verses, that’s harder to explain away.