Hand Clapping During Mass

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In the same paragraph of Sacrosanctum Concilium
, no. 14, the Council continues: “In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else.” So the Council itself defines the primary aim of liturgical renewal: full, conscious and active participation. How does the Council initially intend for the aim to be achieved? That, also, is not something we have to guess at or speculate on: “And, therefore, pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it by means of the necessary instruction in all their pastoral work.” The Council’s idea is clear: the liturgy is to be renewed by promoting more active participation through the means of greater education. Nothing whatsoever is said here about any kind of changes or reform of the rite itself. Later, when changes are discussed, the Council states in paragraph 23: “There must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them.” So no changes unless there is a real, proven, demonstrable need.

Paragraph 23 continues: “And care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.” Organic growth — like a plant, a flower, a tree — not something constructed by an intellectual elite, not things fabricated and tacked on, or brought back from ten centuries ago, or fifteen centuries ago, but an organic growth. That’s what the Council itself said.

Paragraph 48 begins the chapter on the Mass. And the title of this chapter is interesting. It’s not called “The Eucharist” or “The Mass”; it’s called “The Most Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist.” Even in the chapter title, you have the sense that what’s important is mystery, sacredness, awe, the transcendence of God.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html
 
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SueKrum:
The point about my signature is that it quotes scripture telling us to clap for the lord. does that mean that we should be makeing a ruccus to disturb mass? no, but if someone is moved by the spirit every now and then, it’s not evil! When the priest says something funny in his homoly, people laugh, are they not supposed to? So when a priest gets up there and encourages his flock to go out, be brave and tell the world the truth and gets some people really moved and they clap in aggreenment, what’s wrong with that?

Good for you that your church is traditional! But just because we have a drummer in our choir doesn’t make our church inferiour to yours. We’ve had so many miricles at St. Joseph’s in Fax FL and the people are so alive with the Holy Spirt, I don’t think Jesus is displeased with us clapping every now and then. Because all the clapping is for Him and in His name and I’m sorry if that bothers you.

I don’t know why it has to be all or nothing, frankly. is clapping an evil act? If someone gets so excited about receiving the Eukerest and they say “ahmen” a little too loud, are they committing a sin? We should be thanking God that they are there and so full of love for Him that they are overwhelmed!

Fine, there’s no clapping in your church. that’s OK. no one HAS to clap if that’s not their way. it wasn’t my dad’s way. he was very quiet in mass. Me, I have to hold on to the pew sometimes because I get so excited about Jesus! I’ve almost fainted in the communion line before out of excitement and hiperventolation. (it’s all I can do to not skip instead of walking up there) That’s just the way God made me. I’m very emotional and I demonstrate my emotions out loud and people like you make people like me feel like we are doing something wrong when we get excited in church.

At my rowdy church, during the communion prayers and the “Lamb of God” everyone has their heads bowed and are praying silently and perpairing themselves for the Lord. No one is shouting out and clapping then. it’s approprately reverent.
So if the Spirit moves me to do cartwheels in the liturgy, is that alright? The scriptures state that we should stone women who commit adultery. Should we?
Catholics are traditionally based not by Scripture Alone. We have guides for what is appropriate in our liturgy and what is not. Luckily, our Holy Father is taking the first steps to cleaning up innovations, so if he feels that hand clapping is innappropriate, he will stop it.

I would not go so far as to say that applause is not appropriate in Holy Mass, but timing is everything. I’m sorry that “people like me” make “people like you” feel bad. I make my children feel bad when I tell them that their actions are not appropriate. If you are firm in your belief that what you are doing is the right thing, then why would it matter at all what I do in my church?
 
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		 				In the same paragraph of *Sacrosanctum Concilium*, no. 14, the Council continues: “In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else.” So the Council itself defines the primary aim of liturgical renewal: full, conscious and active participation. How does the Council initially intend for the aim to be achieved? That, also, is not something we have to guess at or speculate on: “And, therefore, pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it by means of the necessary instruction in all their pastoral work.” The Council’s idea is clear: the liturgy is to be renewed by promoting more active participation through the means of greater education. Nothing whatsoever is said here about any kind of changes or reform of the rite itself. Later, when changes are discussed, the Council states in paragraph 23: “There must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them.” So no changes unless there is a real, proven, demonstrable need.
Amen and Amen!
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
So if the Spirit moves me to do cartwheels in the liturgy, is that alright? The scriptures state that we should stone women who commit adultery…
Here we go again…:yawn:
 
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YinYangMom:
That would have been a good citation if we’d been discussing a priest choosing to add an additional reading to the Liturgy of the Word or perhaps consecrating the blood before the bread or something along those lines - which are innovations to the liturgy itself.

Applause at the end of mass at the discretion of the priest is not an innovation to the Liturgy in any way shape or form because it is done after the Mass.

The applause at JPII funeral was between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist - not during either. It’s one of the reasons the mass is designed with distinct movements toward the pinnacle of the Eucharist and then from there toward the community so that we may go out to love and serve the Lord. Such distinctions are to be used as pauses for reflection before moving on to the next part of the Mass - preparation. Well right before we are sent out to love and serve the Lord is an opportune time to recognize those among us who are living examples of how God works through them - and can also work through everyone else present.
Please read Fr Fessio’s full article. It will surprise you as to what full and active participation means.

Pope John Paul II Addresses the Bishops

…It happened that when the bishops from the Northwest came — from Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Montana and Idaho — the Holy Father spoke on the liturgy. Archbishop Weakland and others were not particularly happy with what the pope said. And so I took the occasion in the afternoon to say to Archbishop Weakland, “You know, Archbishop you’ve publicly called me a papal maximalist. You published an article in America magazine in which you used that title for me. But you know, I can’t help it. The Pope keeps agreeing with me.”

Here’s what the Pope said to the bishops of the Northwestern United States: “The two-thousandth anniversary of the birth of the Savior is a call to all Christ’s followers to seek a genuine conversion to God and a great advance to holiness. Since the Liturgy is such a central part of the Christian life, I wish today to consider some aspects of the liturgical renewal so vigorously promoted by the Second Vatican Council, as the prime agent of the wider renewal of Catholic life.” So, the Council itself wanted to renew Catholic life. And within that, it wanted to renew the liturgy. The Pope is saying here that as we look toward the year 2000, we must go back and see what the Council wanted for liturgical renewal, because that is the prime agent of the wider renewal of Catholic life.

He continues: “To look back over what has been done in the field of liturgical renewal since the Council is first to see many reasons for giving heartfelt thanks and praise to the Most Holy Trinity for the marvelous awareness which had developed among the faithful of their role and responsibility in the priestly work of Christ and his Church. It is also to realize that not all changes have always and everywhere been accompanied by the necessary explanation and catechesis. **As a result, in some cases there has been a misunderstanding of the very nature of the Liturgy, leading to abuses, polarization, sometimes even grave scandal.” **
 
cont’d

The Pope generally speaks diplomatically, especially to bishops. These are pretty hard words, and this is the introduction, so obviously he’s going to give some guidelines for avoiding this polarization, this grave scandal and these abuses. He says, “After the experience of more than thirty years of liturgical renewal we are well placed to assess both the strengths and weaknesses of what has been done . . .” (listen carefully now)“ . . . in order more confidently to plot our course into the future, which God has in mind for His cherished people.” The Pope, here, speaks to our bishops, looking toward the new millennium and says, in effect, Here is what I think is the plan God has for all of his people as we move to the next millennium. And, specifically, here is the liturgical blueprint that, I, the Holy Father, believe we are to follow.

“The challenge now,” he continues, “is to move beyond whatever misunderstandings there have been and to reach the proper point of balance, especially by entering more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship, which includes a sense of awe, reverence and adoration which are fundamental attitudes in our relationship with God.”

What does the Pope say we must do to restore balance? Enter more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship. Can you contemplate when you’ve got drummers up in the sanctuary? Where do we find the sense of awe? Not in this “chatty” stuff at Mass: “Good morning, everybody.” Does that inspire a sense of awe? “Have a nice day.” The Pope mentions reverence and adoration. Standing is a sign of respect; but kneeling is a sign of adoration. The Pope says we must restore the sense of adoration.

The Pope says to the liturgists and the bishops, “The Eucharist gathers and builds the human community, but it is also ‘the worship of the Divine Majesty’.” That’s from Sacrosanctum Concilium, paragraph 33. He continues: “It is subjective in that it depends radically upon what the worshippers bring to it, but it is objective in that it transcends them as the priestly act of Christ himself to which he associates us, **but which ultimately does not depend upon us.” **

This is why it’s so important that liturgical law be respected: an objective act is taking place. “The priest, who is the servant of the liturgy and not its inventor or producer, has a particular responsibility in this regard, lest he empty the liturgy of its true meaning or obscure its sacred character,” says the Holy Father.

Then he talks about “The core of the mystery of Christian worship.” Is the core of the mystery of Christian worship a sense that we are the people of God? Is it feeling united with each other? Spiritual bonding? Not according to the Pope, who says, “The core of the mystery of Christian worship is the Sacrifice of Christ offered to the Father and the work of the Risen Christ who sanctifies his people through the liturgical sign.” The sacrifice of Christ, sanctification. That’s what the Pope says. Remember, he’s looking now to lead the Church in the new millennium liturgically. He continues: “It is, therefore, essential that in seeking to enter more deeply into the contemplative depths of worship, the inexhaustible mystery of the priesthood of Jesus Christ be fully acknowledged and respected.”

There is a movement to refer to the celebrant as the “presider,” instead of the “celebrant” or the “priest.” Now it’s true, he is a presider. But that’s an abstraction; and I think there’s an agenda behind the abstraction. You see, all the Sacraments need someone who presides: at Confirmation, at the Eucharist, at Confession — and at Baptism. And who can preside at Baptism? The priest is the ordinary minister and presider, but under certain unusual circumstances a layman — man or woman — and even a non-Catholic can preside at Baptism. And, so, I believe some people want to get us in the habit of thinking of the priest as a presider primarily because that’s an abstract term, which could include women.

What does the Pope say about the matter? “The priest, therefore, is not just one who presides, but one who acts in the person of Christ.” You see, only the priest can act in persona Christi capitis, in the name of the Bridegroom (Jesus) over against the Bride (the Church) in the nuptial act, which is the Mass.
 
I am firm in my bliefs and will not stop clapping to music when it’s appropriate. I don’t bust out in applaws in the middle of the gospil. and yes, we are not scripture alone, that doesn’t mean the we ignore it!!!
If the church doesn’t want people clapping to the music, than they should foribit music with an up beat tempo, like “Go out in the world and tell everyone the good news”

the last words at mass are “Now go forth in peace to love and serve the lord” and we say “thanks be to God” and then a up beat, cheerful song is played and everyone at my chruch starts singing and clapping. what’s about tapping my foot to the beat? is that allowed? or maybe I’ll put my hand in my purse and quietly jingle my keys instead since clapping offends God. Is that legalistic for you? What about babies crying in mass? should their mothers cover their mouths to shut them up? the bible says “let the children come to me and do not prevent them” but we are not Bible alone are we? What if I sneeze in mass and someone says from two pews back"god bless you"? are they sinning too? or is it only the clapping that bothers you so?

I’m so sorry that you feel this way and when you get to heaven and everyone is so full of joy and worshiping God with joyful sounds AND reverence, I hope you’ll be able to deal with it.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Please just stay on subject. We don’t know your Priest. It is nonsense to have any discussion if the first and foremost assumption is the Priest is “heterodox”. In the scheme of things, this issue in the context of violations of Church Teaching is trivial. If he is willing to advocate contraception, the Church’s views on this matter wouldn’t even register. At some point, you have to agree to submit and obey your Pastor. If you can’t do it on this issue, you need to find a new Pastor. This has become an impediment to your entire attitude and ability to submit to the Church.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss if there was any reason to ever have clapping at any Mass. Many of us outlined examples and circumstances where they were appropriate. Attempts to divert it to liturgical dance or now contraception are a diversion and prevent intelligent discussion of the matter at hand.

Not once has one person point blank said:
  1. The Archbishop and member of the Curia is wrong to have led a standing ovation at the ordination of a new Archbishop to show affection, appreciation and support.
  2. A Bishop is wrong to lead an ovation for newly confirmed Catholics to show affection, appreciation and support.
  3. A Priest is wrong to lead an ovation of new 1st Communicants to show affection, appreciation and support.
  4. A Pastor is wrong to lead an ovation in recognition of his Associates ordination anniversary to show affection, appreciation and support.
If I don’t think that this Archbishop, my Bishop, and my Pastor are right about these things, I wonder what I can believe they have right. And if I’m going to question them on anything, this wouldn’t be it.

Instead, the responses to our points have been about clapping during homilies, contraception, liturgical dance, and weekly birthday announcements of the congregation.
Buffalo, again a lot of words taking words out of context. Are you ready to answer these questions? Had enough time to study them yet? This is the point of the thread. Or am I being impatient?
 
**Please continue to address post content eliminating presumptive judgments upon/about individual posters in the thread. We are united in faith, we vary in practice, yet we all belong to the Lord.

“Pleasing words are like honey, sweet to the soul and new life to the bones.”**
 
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SueKrum:
I am firm in my bliefs and will not stop clapping to music when it’s appropriate. I don’t bust out in applaws in the middle of the gospil. and yes, we are not scripture alone, that doesn’t mean the we ignore it!!!
If the church doesn’t want people clapping to the music, than they should foribit music with an up beat tempo, like “Go out in the world and tell everyone the good news”

the last words at mass are “Now go forth in peace to love and serve the lord” and we say “thanks be to God” and then a up beat, cheerful song is played and everyone at my chruch starts singing and clapping. what’s about tapping my foot to the beat? is that allowed? or maybe I’ll put my hand in my purse and quietly jingle my keys instead since clapping offends God. Is that legalistic for you? What about babies crying in mass? should their mothers cover their mouths to shut them up? the bible says “let the children come to me and do not prevent them” but we are not Bible alone are we? What if I sneeze in mass and someone says from two pews back"god bless you"? are they sinning too? or is it only the clapping that bothers you so?

I’m so sorry that you feel this way and when you get to heaven and everyone is so full of joy and worshiping God with joyful sounds AND reverence, I hope you’ll be able to deal with it.
I think there was a post in this thread from either the GIRM, Cardinal Arinze, or someone of universally accepted authority that clapping to an appropriate song is ok. The post did say that such songs are usually appropriate for the recessional hymn except in Masses geared to a particular homogenous group (ala youth, charismatics, etc.) Let’s try to stay on the particular subject of the thread
 
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stargazer257:
Here we go again…:yawn:
Well, I was not the one who quoted scripture to rationalize actions. If we use isolated scripture to rationalize actions not prescribed in the rubics, what do you expect?

The following quote is extreme.
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SueKrum:
I am firm in my bliefs and will not stop clapping to music when it’s appropriate. I don’t bust out in applaws in the middle of the gospil. and yes, we are not scripture alone, that doesn’t mean the we ignore it!!!
If the church doesn’t want people clapping to the music, than they should foribit music with an up beat tempo, like “Go out in the world and tell everyone the good news”

the last words at mass are “Now go forth in peace to love and serve the lord” and we say “thanks be to God” and then a up beat, cheerful song is played and everyone at my chruch starts singing and clapping. what’s about tapping my foot to the beat? is that allowed? or maybe I’ll put my hand in my purse and quietly jingle my keys instead since clapping offends God. Is that legalistic for you? What about babies crying in mass? should their mothers cover their mouths to shut them up? the bible says “let the children come to me and do not prevent them” but we are not Bible alone are we? What if I sneeze in mass and someone says from two pews back"god bless you"? are they sinning too? or is it only the clapping that bothers you so?

I’m so sorry that you feel this way and when you get to heaven and everyone is so full of joy and worshiping God with joyful sounds AND reverence, I hope you’ll be able to deal with it.
And Madam, please review and moderate this post. I’m not sure that you see how personally insulting you are being. In my original post…
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I don’t see anything about the liturgy in your signature.
Just as one would not sing Happy Birthday at a Funeral even if it was being held on a mourner’s birthday, some things are not for the liturgy.

And let me add that I am at one of the most traditional Catholic Churches in our area (Thank You Holy Lord). We reserve applause for the END only. Just before the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel after the parish annoucements. Two weekends ago, I was blessed to be at two of our six Sunday Masses. Our Pastor announced that our Dear Fr. Val turned 89. Applause was resounding.
There is nothing personal to you except to point out that the Scripture you quoted does not state "liturgy’ in it. In fact, I agreed that applause is appropriate at the end.
 
**The thread is now closed: Thanks to all who participated in an informative way.

“…With all gentle and quiet behaviour, taking whatever comes, putting up with one another in love;”**
 
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