Hand Holding and Guitars at Mass?

[rlg94086]

Don’t sweat the small stuff…

Due to an editorial oversight (mine), the article “The Ten Most Common Liturgical Abuses” in our January 1999 issue stated that the Holy See has prohibited the practice of holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer at Mass. Since we have continued to receive questions on this issue from both sides of the aisle-those who like to hold hands and those who don’t-we revisited the source cited by the article as prohibiting the practice. **Bottom line: The Holy See has used language discouraging the practice, but it has not explicitly forbidden it.
**

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9905up.asp

There are priests/parishes that don’t follow clear rubrics from the GIRM (eg priests leaving the sanctuary to give signs of peace), and I pray that they will educate themselves and change their practices. When it comes to practices that aren’t clearly forbidden, than I believe the bishops and priests (in that order ) are aloud to determine what is appropriate.

We have a wealth of liturgical styles in our Church. As long as they conform to GIRM, than I’m okay with that .

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[Scullinius]

brotherhrolf:

Maybe sometime I’ll relate to you the story of having to get permission from our local parish to join the Cathedral parish.

 

[netmilsmom]

And you were in the hearts and minds of others?<<
Either you are not fully reading my posts or you are accusing me of being a liar. Either one makes me uncomfortable. So this will be my last statement on the matter.

I am not a priest, nor Our Holy Mother. I would prefer to be humble in my worship. You, of course have a right to do as you like. Why would you care what I think anyway?
Perhaps if you reread the above article, you might see it differently. (the Whole thing) Then again, maybe not. You are comfortable in taking the position and Catholics are the best at rationalization! LOL!

As my Uncle stated to me (retired Bishop of a large diocese), “Too many pastors and DREs are listening to hot-shot educators rather than to the church.”

I’m so glad your parish is growing. I pray it continues. As for your statement of…
“You do not have the moral right to propagate untrue accusations.”
That is your interpertation of the GIRM and I default to the experts.

Again, my opinion. I am not in recruting so it really makes no difference.

 

[genevieve.oz]

O.S. Luke:

I’d probably draw the line at a kazoo or accordian.

O+

–

“Welcome to heaven: here’s your harp.” - St. Peter
“Welcome to hell: here’s your accordian.” - Satan

Note to self: don’t take the accordian

 

[brotherhrolf]

Scullinius: This is directly pertinent to hand holding and guitars at Mass. Twenty-five + years ago we moved from our medium sized city to take care of my wife’s mother “out in the country” (then). We attended the local parish for a little while but I couldn’t stand the music, the lack of reverence, “the hail fellow - well met” attitude, and the priest running all over the church during the sign of peace. We quit going to church for a year because the nearest parish was many miles away and our oldest was a babe in arms. A co-worker asked me if I knew anyone who could sing because she was in the cathedral choir and they desperately needed members. I figured this was God calling and I accepted the call. I joined the choir.

Now the cathedral parish back then was in the deserted center of town and had less than 200 registered parishoners. The atmosphere was reverent and the choir sang a variety of hymns, chant, etc. that I was familiar with from singing in the parish choir when I was a child and in high school. Number 2 son came along and we decided to join the cathedral parish despite the 25 mile drive one way. At that time you had to have permission to join the cathedral parish if you didn’t live within its borders. I needed to get a letter from my local parish authorizing the move. I called the local parish and was told I needed to talk to the pastor in person.

“Why do you want to leave this parish?” Being polite, I said nothing about the gabbing during Mass etc. and instead said, “Sorry Father, I don’t like the music”.:bigyikes: What do you mean?! Um, Father, I really don’t like singing “Sons of God” and “They’ll know we are Christians” and that kind of stuff when we have a 1500 year history of good choral music which went down the drain in Vatican II":bigyikes: . Not what he wanted to hear at all. Very shortly I received the letter releasing me along with a statement that if I was dying he would not respond to a call nor could I expect to be buried from his church. This was in writing folks and I am not making any of this up.

The cathedral parish pastor was not happy with the letter and it got sent to the bishop. I don’t live in that parish anymore. I live in another parish which has the same problem. I still drive 25 miles to the cathedral where my kid(s) were baptized, made their first communions and confirmations. I sang in the cathedral choir for 19 yrs. until family problems dictated that I had to put myself on hiatus. I wouldn’t trade the cathedral parish for all the tea in China.

Dumspirospero knows of which I speak but I can’t seem to get a PM to him. Dums, please try your way to me.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

I have seen guitars and other musical instruments (not organs) being used at several Catholic churches during the Mass. I have also see dozens of examples of hand holding and having to shake the hand of the person next to you. I find this as offensive as talking on a cell phone during service.

The Protestants tend to turn their churches into social clubs, the service included, and I don’t see why a Catholic Mass should resemble a Protestant service, unless its a one world religion synergistic movement conspiracy.

The Roman Catholic Mass is a solemn and holy event, not a hootanany with gitfiddles and violins and banjos.

I had a job in Milwaukee and spent a few hours searching for a Roman Catholic Church. When I finally found one amid all the Eastern Rite churches and Protestant churches, I attended a Sunday service and walked out in the rain when they pulled out guitars and the Priests and Friars started singing and playing. I couldn’t handle that especially when I wanted to pray for a recently deceased friend.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

I had to look at the original post and see where you lived, because I went through the exact same thing, only, this is the local parish. I have been in a war with my insides on this. I feel like people are so misled or maybe don’t have the right information etc.

I took my daughter to mass on Sunday and she and I knelt down to say our prayers. The “Folk Group” was so loud, I literally had to put my hands on my face to hide my disgust. I know, I know, that isn’t being nice. The group is more interested in talking as if Jesus isn’t even present. Such disrespect. The hand holding during the Our Father was foreign to me. I used to do it, because people GRABBED MY HAND before I even knew what was happening. I now keep my hands firmly folded in front of me and my eyes on the cross. I recently joined another parish in another state since I border three states. When we go there, my daughter sits politely and gets more out of the Mass. When we go to the local parish, she actually fidgets so badly I have to nudge her at least four to five times. It seems like common sense to me. The newest thing in the local parish is to greet eachother at the beginning of Mass. I looked at my daughter and said “Hi!” She busted out laughing. Great. It is a feeling I have inside. I feel badly for Jesus. No one seems to really know that he is there.

Blessings,
Helen

 

[brotherhrolf]

We are not facing what is the central focus of this thread. I don’t want to exclude the hand holders or guitars at Mass. They are certainly entitled to their views of what is reverent. The central focus it seems to me is reverence. When I was a child just before Vatican II when you went to Mass, you entered into a “holy space”. The Mass was in Latin " a “sacred” language - a language used solely to worship God. One entered into the “mysteries” of the Church and one was conscious of a universal Church. There were scents associated with this - incense was used as well as the scent of bees wax candles in abundance. When you walked into church you entered into the holy.

Once again, I am not condemning those who hold other views. I have read this thread and have commented upon the Haagan-Hause (sic) thread. I can only speak for myself. If I wanted to attend a “feel good” “semi-protestant” Mass, I would go. I want to go to Mass where I enter into the sacred. I will probably heap “condemnation” upon my head saying this but - If I have a bunch of badly trained “musicians” singing off-key and with the most godawful banal, insipid, “it’s more important to pull people in” music…I don’t feel the sense of the sacred. If I have everybody yapping before Mass, how can I enter the sacred?

When we go to Mass, we enter into that which is sacred. I do not challenge the power of the Holy Eucharist but if you have clowns on the altar ( as we have seen here); or liturgical “dancers” swaying down the aisle holding bowls of incense; I simply don’t have a sense of the sacred. That’s what I want - a sense of the sacred. A sense of I’m leaving the material world and entering into that which is holy. I have been to the “Great Vigil” (Holy Saturday) Eastern Orthodox liturgy and entered into that which is HOLY. All I can say for the hand holding and guitars at Mass is that for me, and me alone, it is antithetical to the HOLY liturgies of our Church and that of the Eastern Churches.

 

[katherine2]

brotherhrolf:

The Mass was in Latin " a “sacred” language - a language used solely to worship God

…and read Cicero.

one was conscious of a universal Church.

Except in the South were parishes were segregated by race.

If I wanted to attend a “feel good” “semi-protestant” Mass, I would go.

I feel good when I go to Mass today and I felt good when I went to Mass in 1956.

If I have a bunch of badly trained “musicians” singing off-key …

You are too young and have read too many right wing tracts. The theory that the world did not contain a badly trained “musician” singing off-key in 1950 is a myth.

If I have everybody yapping before Mass, how can I enter the sacred?

I pray the Office at home in my icon corner before I go to Mass. You can also try seeing the Christ in others as they are “yapping”. That’s a good way to enter the sacred.

When we go to Mass, we enter into that which is sacred. I do not challenge the power of the Holy Eucharist but if you have clowns on the altar…

Where is this parish? You can be a regularly Mass goer at a progressive parish and never see this.

… or liturgical “dancers” swaying down the aisle holding bowls of incense;

speak to the Pope about that one. He seems to like it.

All I can say for the hand holding and guitars at Mass is that for me, and me alone, it is antithetical to the HOLY liturgies of our Church and that of the Eastern Churches.

Well, the organ is antithetical to the Eastern Church and last time I was at one, I got much more than a hand holding.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Katherine: I am most disturbed by your caustic reply. I am an anthropologist by training and when I say a “sacred” language I am talking about a language dedicated to the worship of a god. There are numerous examples in history which I will not get into at this time. Cicero notwhithstanding, Latin has developed into a “sacred” language whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

1. I particulary resent your assertion that parishes were segregated in the south. You know not of what you speak. My home parish when I was a child was Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Kenner, LA. Amongst our parishoners were Ellis Marsalis and all of his sons (Wynton, Bradford, et al). There were black parishoners in my baptismal church (Saint Anthony) and there are numerous black parishoners in my current parish - St. Joseph Cathedral. Louisiana (which is in the South btw) has the highest percentage of black Catholics in the US. If there is an African American parish in Louisiana is because it is an historic African American Parish (e.g. St Benedict the Moor, Immaculate Conception in Scotlandville) because that was the group of people in that geographic area.

I saw Archbishop Rummel of NO in 1964 on TV excommunicate (bell, book, and candle) on the steps of the Chancery in NO two white women who resisted his decree to desegregate the Catholic schools of NO BEFORE it was mandated by law. I

1. I made certain to explain that I understand other viewpoints (otherwise what the hey did I do to go on an get a master’s degree in anthropology).
2. PS I am 53 years old and I made my first communion and confirmation BEFORE Vatican II.

I am talking about the “sacred”. Pardon me if it is an obscure anthropological word but it certainly would have been understood by any Catholic prior to Vat II.

 

[brotherhrolf]

PPS, Mother Drexel established several shools in LA. Surely she didn’t believe in segregated parishes.

 

[MrS]

brotherhrolf:

We are not facing what is the central focus of this thread. I don’t want to exclude the hand holders or guitars at Mass. They are certainly entitled to their views of what is reverent. The central focus it seems to me is reverence. When I was a child just before Vatican II when you went to Mass, you entered into a “holy space”. The Mass was in Latin " a “sacred” language - a language used solely to worship God. One entered into the “mysteries” of the Church and one was conscious of a universal Church. There were scents associated with this - incense was used as well as the scent of bees wax candles in abundance. When you walked into church you entered into the holy.

Once again, I am not condemning those who hold other views. I have read this thread and have commented upon the Haagan-Hause (sic) thread. I can only speak for myself. If I wanted to attend a “feel good” “semi-protestant” Mass, I would go. I want to go to Mass where I enter into the sacred. I will probably heap “condemnation” upon my head saying this but - If I have a bunch of badly trained “musicians” singing off-key and with the most godawful banal, insipid, “it’s more important to pull people in” music…I don’t feel the sense of the sacred. If I have everybody yapping before Mass, how can I enter the sacred?

When we go to Mass, we enter into that which is sacred. I do not challenge the power of the Holy Eucharist but if you have clowns on the altar ( as we have seen here); or liturgical “dancers” swaying down the aisle holding bowls of incense; I simply don’t have a sense of the sacred. That’s what I want - a sense of the sacred. A sense of I’m leaving the material world and entering into that which is holy. I have been to the “Great Vigil” (Holy Saturday) Eastern Orthodox liturgy and entered into that which is HOLY. All I can say for the hand holding and guitars at Mass is that for me, and me alone, it is antithetical to the HOLY liturgies of our Church and that of the Eastern Churches.

You are not alone in your thoughts… thanks for expressing them here. I agree with you.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

katherine2:

I pray the Office at home in my icon corner before I go to Mass. You can also try seeing the Christ in others as they are “yapping”. That’s a good way to enter the sacred.

I have a question for you. Then why go to Mass to pray. I don’t understand this. I am married, have four young children and a small house. If I wanted a place to pray I would have to be in the bathroom and believe me, that would last maybe two minutes. I am all for praying at home, but in front of the Alter with Jesus present in the Eucharist is very special to me. When I enter church and people are literally shouting, teasing eachother, it GREATLY disturbs me. Let me tell you the difference. When I attend the local parish it is like some brunch party. “Hey, how are you?” etc. When I attend the other church with many many children and College students, you could almost hear a pin drop. Before Mass no one is talking, they are praying. When Mass is over, 80% of the people kneel down in prayer! NO ONE IS TALKING OUT LOUD OR SHOUTING. That is for out front of the Church. For someone like me who has to steal minutes with Our Lord, it is a very sad story.

Blessings,
Helen

 

[katherine2]

homeschoolhelen:

I have a question for you. Then why go to Mass to pray. I don’t understand this. I am married, have four young children and a small house. If I wanted a place to pray I would have to be in the bathroom and believe me, that would last maybe two minutes. I am all for praying at home, but in front of the Alter with Jesus present in the Eucharist is very special to me.
Blessings,
Helen

Thank you for your inquiry, Helen. As someone who has had a lifelong committment to liturgical renewal, I appreciate your question as it hits the core point of the renewal.

The concern is an appreciation for both private prayer and common worship. before the renewal there was a great privitization of the Mass. People did not follow the Mass but spent their time in private prayer. When translated Missals were legalized and the Liturgical Movement began to educate the faithful on the meaning of the Mass, we began to be able to follow the Mass and pray the Mass as a community. The very words “Church” and “liturgy” evoke common worship not private devotions. So we go to Mass for the principal reason of common worship, not private devotion.

I understand the burdens of motherhood. I’ve been there myself. When my kids were young, we would pray the rosary as a family and my husband and I would pray Vespers once the kids went to bed.

 

[katherine2]

brotherhrolf:

Katherine: I am most disturbed by your caustic reply.

I’m sorry. I was a little over the top. I think all of what you expressed are very valid personal preferences. Certainly, I can only recommend you seek out a community that matches your preferences. My intention was only to clarify that your legitimate preferences should not be seen as universal virtues. Different, equally faithful people, will have different preferences.

1. I particulary resent your assertion that parishes were segregated in the south. You know not of what you speak. …
   I saw Archbishop Rummel of NO in 1964 on TV excommunicate (bell, book, and candle) on the steps of the Chancery in NO two white women who resisted his decree to desegregate the Catholic schools of NO BEFORE it was mandated by law.

Dear, I know of what I speak as well. I am a former national officer of the National Catholic Committee on Interracial Justice. I knew Cardinal O’Boyle who desegregated the Catholics institutions in Washington, DC. Archbishop Rummel did the same in New Orleans. The fact that they did it shows that the were segregrated. The Church was ahead of secular society on this.

1. I made certain to explain that I understand other viewpoints (otherwise what the hey did I do to go on an get a master’s degree in anthropology).

Yes, I was insensitive to this.

1. PS I am 53 years old and I made my first communion and confirmation BEFORE Vatican II.

My dear, you are a child!!!

 

[fix]

speak to the Pope about that one. He seems to like it.

I guess Cardinal Arinze is a liar?

 

[INRI]

kovalcik:

I would love to attend a Latin mass sometime. I wish I could find one in my area. I have attended Byzantine masses in Slovanic (An Eastern rite equivalent to Latin), Marionite services in a Middle Eastern equivalent language (I cannot recall the proper name), and even attended a modern day mass in Spanish.

There is a Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) in New Hampshire. The information is below (from Latinliturgy.com).
**Magdalen College
**Tory Hill Road
R.F.D.#2, Box 375
Warner NH 03278
Sun at 9 AM during the school year
(sung; 1970 twice a month, Hybrid twice a month)
1970; Hybrid
(Take exit 8 from Interstate 89; follow signs to Rollins State Park
and Indian Museum.)

 

[homeschoolhelen]

katherine2:

Thank you for your inquiry, Helen. As someone who has had a lifelong committment to liturgical renewal, I appreciate your question as it hits the core point of the renewal.

The concern is an appreciation for both private prayer and common worship. before the renewal there was a great privitization of the Mass. People did not follow the Mass but spent their time in private prayer. When translated Missals were legalized and the Liturgical Movement began to educate the faithful on the meaning of the Mass, we began to be able to follow the Mass and pray the Mass as a community. The very words “Church” and “liturgy” evoke common worship not private devotions. So we go to Mass for the principal reason of common worship, not private devotion.

I understand the burdens of motherhood. I’ve been there myself. When my kids were young, we would pray the rosary as a family and my husband and I would pray Vespers once the kids went to bed.

Hi again! I totally participate in the Mass. I am not talking about when Mass starts, I am talking about the half hour before Mass or the half hour after Mass. I hope I don’t sound harsh, but I have a right to kneel and have a private moment with God and these “yapping” people have no right to steal it from me. I am a homeschooling mom that prays with the family daily, that isn’t a problem. The children also go to bed at a nice time so that my husband and I have time alone and with prayer. I guess the point I am trying to make is . . . manners and being courteous to one another. I find it lacking in this so called “community”. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Sometimes people are on their knees praying because someone close to them is dying and they need this time before Mass. Sometimes other problems that are huge are brought before Jesus for some conversation. The “community” needs to take the socializing outside.

Blessings,
Helen

 

[Exalt]

dumspirospero:

I am sorry if this thread is a duplicate because I had a problem trying to post this earlier.

I wasn’t feeling well the other Sunday (Feast of the Holy Family), so I slept in and went to a local parish instead of making my usual treck downtown to the Cathedral…while I fulfilled my obligation to attend Mass…I found it to be lacking and full of what I consider liturgical abuse…maybe I am just paranoid…there were a couple of things that struck me as strange. First, they had a band instead of a choir and they had guitars and other instruments and it was very annoying and it upset me…is it proper to have guitars, etc. at Mass…furthermore, as if that wasn’t enough…everybody started holding hands during the “Our Father”…I just went along, because I would have been viewed as a social philistine if I didn’t…and it wasn’t the time to lecture a whole parish on liturgical abuses and the GIRD…also, I must say that the Priest look as if he was just going through the motions during the homily…he never made eye contact with the parishioners, he spoke in a monotone, and his homily was just dull…when I left, I decided never to go to that parish again…no matter what the circumstances…I will stick to the Cathedral or St. Agnes where I can enjoy a wonderful Indult TLM…

Has anyone else experienced this type of stuff before?

No “abuses” here. The only problem I see is the monotone, un-inspiring homily. I do wish that we had better homilsts.

 

[katherine2]

homeschoolhelen:

Hi again! I totally participate in the Mass. I am not talking about when Mass starts, I am talking about the half hour before Mass or the half hour after Mass. I hope I don’t sound harsh, but I have a right to kneel and have a private moment with God and these “yapping” people have no right to steal it from me. Blessings,
Helen

Well, it seems you have a diversity within your community. I don’t think any one individual has the “right” to say this church is mine now, others should go away. Some people want to use the opportunity to greet their brothers and sisters in the Lord and others wish to use the place of communal prayer for private devotions.

I would never want to take sides among differing viewpoints within a community I do not belong to. But is seems that you need to get a broad and diverse group from you rparish together and see if a way can be developed to accomodate everyone’s preference. Personally I’ve always liked churches with an enclosed devotional chapel or oratory. I know changing around the layout is not often an option for most. In my nephew’s parish, they have taken what was the chapel in the Rectory (he didn’t even know they had one!) and made it a public oratory. Uptown a few blocks, some of the Hispanic ladies have set up a little devotional shrine in the back of a beauty parlor. They love it and it serves their needs.

The other option would be what I used a few times – send hubby and kids off to Mass a half-hour early and pray alone at home for some time and then join them for Mass.

The point is to find some solution that makes everyone happy.