Hand holding and Raising during the "Our Father"

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To be honest, I guess things are slightly different for me.

I’ve NEVER seen the hand-holding as an on-going feature of Mass in the UK. It happens sporadically and in my experience only happens on ‘special occasions’ - perhaps at a children’s mass for example.

Given that I don’t experience it all that often, I don’t mind it at all but at the same time I wouldn’t initiate it.

I appreciate that some people like to follow all the rubrics to the letter as part of their personal devotion. For me,just for me persnally, the hand holding doesn’t disturb my sincerity of heart, or my prayer, so it doesn’t really bother me. However, I do agree that no-one should be feel to do this - particularly if it disturbs their own personal prayer.

I’m not sure I’m making sense so I think I’ll shut up now…

The point about someone needing to be touched…well part of me was trying to play devil’s advocate there. And part of me wasn’t. So…ANYWAY…!😃 I do believe this message will be discussed for evermore!

Pax
 
Vincent, you are quite correct! We’ll always have hand-holding to bicker about! 🙂
That said, I was just scanning Redemptionis Sacramentum (the “subsequent document concerning abuses” cited below) yesterday, and I came across the Section entitled “Other Abuses.” It made me think of this thread, and in particular, the quote below.
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otm:
  1. With both the publication of the most recent issue of the GIRM, and the subsequent document concerning abuses (0ne of these days I’ll memorize the name of it), Rome had ample time and opportunity to address it, and they chose not to. Given the items that were addressed in both documents, and the fact that there has been vocal protest over hand holding for quite some time, it is simply not possible that Rome did not know about the issue. Therefore, the conclusion is that it is a non-issue with Rome.
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Leave it to the Vatican to dot every i and cross every t. 🙂

As I had responded, Redemptionis Sacramentum did focus on the most grave abuses ~ those concerning the Eucharist, but it also had this to say:

3. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. **Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected **according to the norm of law.

But I’d also agree that I don’t consider hand holding so much a “liturgical abuse” as “poor liturgical action.” However, it is definitely an “innovation” or “experimentation,” and as such, was condemned in Inaestimabile Donum 24 years ago as “bewildering” and “confusing” to the faithful and an “offense to the ecclesial sense.”

Sorry, but, like the hand-holders themselves, I just can’t “let it go!”😛 :o
 
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ridesawhitehors:
Do people in your parish raise their hands or hold hands during the Our Father? We have about 5 or 6 that do. No one else does.
People in our church say that it is outside the rubrix and is a sign of disunity, and that people are mimicking gestures of the priest and that it is wrong.
Do people do this at your parish?
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Everybody at my parish and every parish in town, at every Mass, does that.

Except for me and a few others. It’s outside the rubrics. It’s being taken as THE sign of unity, when in fact it is NOT. It is the Eucharist, Himself, who IS the unity of our community when we proclaim and eat/drink His Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Not only that, it throws off the rhythm of the liturgy to hold hands at the Lord’s prayer and then follow up later with shaking hands as the Sign of Peace.

People in America are always trying to re-write the rubrics, as if it’s a matter of democratic practice to change the rubrics on their own. It’s not. It’s liturgical abuse. Even when the local priest or the local bishop :eek: are pressured by the faithful in the pews who don’t know what they (the faithful) are committing is liturgical abuse.

Holding hands to say the Lord’s prayer as a group is fine when done so in a prayer group meeting. But, please…NOT at Mass!

We’re NOT Protestants saying a group prayer by holding hands. This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, where the Lord’s sacrifice at the altar is re-presented.

Let’s treat it like it is… the Meal, the Sacrifice, the Memory.

Sigh.
 
You might as well let it go until such a time as a ruling is in effect one way or the other.

What you can address with your Bishop is when your priest holds hands with folks on the altar during the Pater Noster. There are definite rubics for him to follow and hand holding is not one of them.

If he would stop, people would not assume it is “okay”. If those who so verbally object on the boards would refuse in the aisles, it might die down too.

I think what Rome is saying, and I agree, that first we have to correct all the abuses that involve the Holy Eucharist and then the others. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the whole of Christian life and first we must be concerned with this and then with the rubics used by people during prayer.

I don’t hold hands by the way, but I do see the abuses addressed in RS to be of more import. BTW have you read this document, I am encouraging everyone to read the entire document. I have read it about 6 times and each time I grasp something new.
 
Oh, deo, I do agree so much with you!

In fact, I posted earlier on your thread about Redemptionis Sacramentum. Indeed, I was reading part of it yesterday, (the part I just cited above) and it seemed to me that it was the first time I’d read that! So, I confessed on your thread that I had perhaps scanned rather than read the full document, and would love to see discussions on the various parts of the document!

Regarding my “not letting go,” that was a pun, of course, as indicated by the smiley afterward, but truly, it is a juicey debate topic here.

At Mass, I don’t hold hands. When my children have attempted to imitate the gesture, I’ve not caved on my position. Since I’m usually seated with family, I don’t get grabbed at Mass very often, but I do sympathyze and empathyze with those who do.

My pastor doesn’t hold hands either, thankfully! But many in the pews do, as well as using the orans position during the Our Father.

I have written my pastor for clarification regarding some abuses, and he says he’d like to meet with me. As far as I’m concerned, hand-holding is so far down on the list, I wouldn’t even mention it.

Yes, for me, too, it’s all about the Eucharist: the Source and Summit of our lives. Thankfully the “abuses” in my parish, I believe, are caused by poorly formed people with the best of intentions, and could easily be rectified. I’ve just not had the time recently to schedule a meeting with our pastor, and he has also been away for a bit.

Anyway, I do enjoy this forum, where Catholics can get together, compare notes, address issues of concern, study documents together, share their faith, and sometimes grapple.

I look forward to more of your posts regarding Redemptionis Sacramentum!

Just another humble fan,
Panis Angelicas <><
 
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dhgray:
WOW…I didn’t realize how passionate some people were. It’s had to believe but now i understand why there are so many problems in the catholic church. Too many SELF-CENTERED
and SELF-ABSORBED people. The ones who do not want to be touched or reach out are probably the same ones who run for the door right after the Eucharist (“Do not stop at GO do not receive the Final Blessing” or try to get out of the parking lot as fast as you can.)

I enjoy holding hands, first with my immediate family and second with my extended family (the church member next to me). But what does the church say about this? Pope Leo XIII and Pope John Paul II were very clear on this point:

Pope Leo XIII: Thus, the separation which pride would set up tends to disappear, nor will it be difficult to make rich and poor join hands in friendly concord.

Pope John Paul II: Coming together, they are able to discuss their most intimate aspirations, experience the Church as communion, make a commitment to the urgent task of new evangelization. And in doing so, they join hands, forming an immense circle of friendship, uniting in faith in the Risen Lord all the different races and nations, cultures and experiences.

Pope John Paul II: I am convinced that if we join hands in the name of God we can accomplish much good .

I hope I am seated next to you in the Mass, I’ll extend my hand to you, my Christian Brother or Sister. Whether or not you take my offering is between you and God.
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DHgray,
I never shake hands with anyone or lift up my hands during the NO Mass. And I didn’t run away after Holy Communion. I was the last one out because I wanted to pray. I nearly got pushed out by others because they wanted to leave and go home.

Interesting that you quote Pope Leo XIII. Most people don’t quote him. Most people here, it seems to me, hate this Pope and the Popes during his time like Pope Blessed Pius IX ana Pope Saint Pius X.
 
Most people here, it seems to me, hate this Pope and the Popes during his time like Pope Blessed Pius IX ana Pope Saint Pius X
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That’s a ridiculous statement. .
 
have written my pastor for clarification regarding some abuses, and he says he’d like to meet with me. As far as I’m concerned, hand-holding is so far down on the list, I wouldn’t even mention it.
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I am glad you are taking action. This is a much better course than just complaining about how bad things are.

And remember, RS says if you don’t get satisfaction there, you can and should write to your Bishop and if necessary they say, you can even write to the Holy See.
 
I never shake hands with anyone or lift up my hands during the NO Mass. And I didn’t run away after Holy Communion. I was the last one out because I wanted to pray. I nearly got pushed out by others because they wanted to leave and go home.
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I am very sorry to hear that you are the only pious Catholic in your parish.
 
in my parish some people holds others hand some not. i particular hold my son hand but is someone offer me her or his hand i accepted it. after all we are all sisters and brothers in the eyes of god and maybe if we all pray with faith something good can happen .god bless.🙂
 
At the parish I’m just joining the only people who hold hands are the people who have never been there before. They tend to also be confused when everyone kneels again after the Agnes Dei and then kneel at the altar rail to receive Communion 🙂 One or two people here and there insist on the Orans position, but most people in my wonderful new parish hold their hands in the prayer position during the Our Father.

In the parish I’m just leaving not only does everyone hold hands, but they stretch across the aisles to do it and the pastor holds hands with the alter girls at the alter.
 
Not very many people at my church do, but we have PLENTY of other “bad” things to make up for the lack of holding hands… But don’t get me started on all that.
 
I don’t believe in the practice and don’t participate in it, but most people at the parish church I generally attend seem to have no problem with holding hands. Much of the blame for that, I’d guess, would have to be lain at the feet of the pastor and his assistant, because they hold hands with the servers and other lay people behind the altar during the Lor’d’s Prayer. Some people just do what the priest does, as would be expected.
 
Most of the people in our parish do one or the other or both. However, noone has tried to grab my hand, or has looked down his/her nose at me because I keep my hands folded. I, in turn, don’t look down my nose at them because they do. Rome has not spoken; therefore I will remain silent (especially since I’m not fully in yet 😉 ). As I have stated in another thread, I am going to pick my battles, and this is one hill that I do not plan to charge and fight for.

DaveBj
 
Some people I know have commented on the laity either holding or raising their hands at the Lord’s Prayer as it being a case of “priest-envy” and I tend to agree wholeheartedly.

Gestures such as this are NOT and have NEVER been a sign of communion in the Church as some have errorneously come to believe. The real sign of our communion in the Church is the reception of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. These are nothing more than inappropriate innovations that have no place in the Holy Sacrifice.

One can just as effectively “Lift up their hearts” to the Lord through silence as opposed to these distracting gestures. I for one refuse to hold another’s hands or raise mine up because it is not my neighbor who raises me, it is the Lord who accomplishes this in Holy Communion.
 
Rome HAS spoken on the matter, and the answer is NO HAND HOLDING OR RAISING HANDS AT THE LORD’S PRAYER! Francis Cardinal Arinze made this perfectly clear during a recent interview with Raymond Arroyo on EWTN’S “*The World Over.” *It’s our naughty bishops who have encouraged this.
**
Also, Mass is not the place for us to be “touchy-feeley.” Mercy! This is the Mass, not a nightclub. Innovations have no place in the Mass and they need to be curbed.
 
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ToledoRosary:
Rome HAS spoken on the matter, and the answer is NO HAND HOLDING OR RAISING HANDS AT THE LORD’S PRAYER! Francis Cardinal Arinze made this perfectly clear during a recent interview with Raymond Arroyo on EWTN’S “*The World Over.” *

A TV interview is not quite the same thing as a Papal encyclical.

DaveBj
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Holding hands doesn’t bother me in the least. The Orans position doesn’t bother me in the least. People who have to critique each other’s acts of reverence, however, bother me greatly. We’re each responsible for our own salvation. If holding my hand makes someone feel closer to God, then isn’t that a wonderful thing to share with them?
 
It’s sad that some people still think that the Mass needs to be changed to give them a "feeling" of closeness to God.

There we stand, speaking to the heavenly Father in the very words Christ taught us, just before we offer the Savior’s Body and Blood to the Father, and receive that same Body and Blood ourselves, and yet…it’s still just not enough…:nope:

Maybe if we hold hands, then our neighbor will ***“feel” closer to God… :rolleyes: ***
 
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