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deogratias
Guest
Maybe if we hold hands, then our neighbor will ***“feel” closer to God…***
Or mayb just closer to me
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dizzy_dave
Guest
I must be an odd ball here. My family holds hands during the Our Father I think it’s a great thing to do, When two or more are gathered together in my name I am there among them this hand holding makes me more in tuned to Jesus and Unity, if Jesus was there in the pews I bet you all wouldn’t snap your hands away when he grabbed your hand. Some people are so full of love that they want everyone to feel it. I find it sad that no one wants to touch anyone anymore, anyone out there familiar with Fr. Larry Richards his tapes and CD’s?, he says in the early days of the church at the sign of peace eveyone used to kiss on the lips - could you imagine that today, I’m a VERY shy and backwards man and I have NO problem with this, if a stranger wants to hold my hand during the Our Father, so be it, I think it’s more distracting to make a big fuss over it, come on people where is the love? Us hand holders are not all aggressive, I’m not. Love your neighbor as yourself, who said that? JESUS !!! :yup: 
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MrS
Guest
Your zeal is wonderful, Keep it up, and keep asking lots more questions like you already do.I must be an odd ball here. My family holds hands during the Our Father I think it’s a great thing to do, When two or more are gathered together in my name I am there among them this hand holding makes me more in tuned to Jesus and Unity, if Jesus was there in the pews I bet you all wouldn’t snap your hands away when he grabbed your hand. Some people are so full of love that they want everyone to feel it. I find it sad that no one wants to touch anyone anymore, anyone out there familiar with Fr. Larry Richards his tapes and CD’s?, he says in the early days of the church at the sign of peace eveyone used to kiss on the lips - could you imagine that today, I’m a VERY shy and backwards man and I have NO problem with this, if a stranger wants to hold my hand during the Our Father, so be it, I think it’s more distracting to make a big fuss over it, come on people where is the love? Us hand holders are not all aggressive, I’m not. Love your neighbor as yourself, who said that? JESUS !!! :yup:
Some work to do…
1] Find the verse where your quote comes from. Go back 5 verses to read its meaning in context. You will see that the lesson is on the authority of the church.
2] Next - don’t be sad. Lots of people, Catholics, are willing to touch and be friendly. Many even leave the Church for the fellowship of another denomination. They recognize fellowship better than they recognize reverence. Give to your neighbor what belongs to your neighbor ( http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif) but give to God what is God’s. The time of the Our Father
3] Fr Richards does put out some good stuff. But he doesn’t claim that everyone kissed everyone does he? For now, think of it as a sign (singular) of Peace, not signs of Peace. And remember that many changes in the norms of the liturgy began simply as abuses, become widespread and even popular, and then in turn became norms (due to the lack of discipline in the church). Stay the course and pray for grace - always.
MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
I welcome warm affection, outside Mass, when our attention are focused on our neighbor. Inside Mass, our attention should be focused on offering the Sacrifice of Christ’s Body and Blood to the Father in atonement for our sins. (As well as the offering of ourselves, which we have placed upon that altar with Christ, when the priest says: “Lift up your hearts,” and we respond, “We lift them up to the Lord.”)
dizzydave,
I don’t expect you to read over the nearly 100 posts on this thread, however, you do need to know that the Mass is not our personal property, it is the Church’s. We don’t have the right to alter it to your liking. We can’t improve upon the Mass. It is the perfect prayer of the Church, offered to the Father. It’s sad that the faithful don’t understand it better, and don’t try to understand it.
They just try to customize it.
The Church has said this about changing the Mass:
Inaestimabile Donum: adoremus.org/InaestimabileDonum.html
The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."
You see, Dave, the Church offers this Mass regardless of whether people “like to touch” or not. Mass isn’t offered to us, but *to *God.
Remarks such as “If Jesus was sitting in the pew…” show a lack of understanding of the Mass. Jesus IS in the pew, and IS in the Word, and IS in our neighbor, and IS Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament.
Those who wish to offer worship to the Father as Jesus taught should be permitted to do so without interruption. Jesus didn’t say, “This is how you shall pray: first, hold hands. Now say, ‘Our Father…’”
We are instructed to pray as Jesus taught, and if that doesn’t make us “feel close enough to God,” then will holding hands do the trick?
Sad that we’re so hung up on “feelings” that we’ve lost a sense of the Sacred, and the reverence and worship that is due Almighty God.
dizzydave,
I don’t expect you to read over the nearly 100 posts on this thread, however, you do need to know that the Mass is not our personal property, it is the Church’s. We don’t have the right to alter it to your liking. We can’t improve upon the Mass. It is the perfect prayer of the Church, offered to the Father. It’s sad that the faithful don’t understand it better, and don’t try to understand it.
They just try to customize it.
The Church has said this about changing the Mass:
Inaestimabile Donum: adoremus.org/InaestimabileDonum.html
The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."
You see, Dave, the Church offers this Mass regardless of whether people “like to touch” or not. Mass isn’t offered to us, but *to *God.
Remarks such as “If Jesus was sitting in the pew…” show a lack of understanding of the Mass. Jesus IS in the pew, and IS in the Word, and IS in our neighbor, and IS Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament.
Those who wish to offer worship to the Father as Jesus taught should be permitted to do so without interruption. Jesus didn’t say, “This is how you shall pray: first, hold hands. Now say, ‘Our Father…’”
We are instructed to pray as Jesus taught, and if that doesn’t make us “feel close enough to God,” then will holding hands do the trick?
Sad that we’re so hung up on “feelings” that we’ve lost a sense of the Sacred, and the reverence and worship that is due Almighty God.
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
most of the thread seems to be very down on the idea of holding hands during the Our Father. at my church, we do it, and i think it’s great. i know that some folks, especially some of the older people, really seem to look fwd to the time when they can connect with another human being. with some people, that’s all the human contact they get.
i’ve heard most everyone (not just here, but in person, too) denounce the practice as uncomfortable and unsanitary. to me, it’s a nice human touch. i think we’re all just a bit too paranoid about germs, anyway.
i’ve heard most everyone (not just here, but in person, too) denounce the practice as uncomfortable and unsanitary. to me, it’s a nice human touch. i think we’re all just a bit too paranoid about germs, anyway.
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Stu
Guest
I think the problems that people have with holding hands are how the practice has been introduced more so than the actual holding of hands. I realize the intent is good, but what if an entire group of parishoners decided that they were all going to lie prostrate for the entire Mass. While more than likely they would mean well, the practice is not what the Church prescribes. My biggest problem with this issue is the silence from above. This is obviously a devisive issue that needs to be dealt with so other things can be discussed. One way or another, a definitve unified decision has to come from our Bishops or even Rome to put this to rest. It would simply be good leadership.most of the thread seems to be very down on the idea of holding hands during the Our Father. at my church, we do it, and i think it’s great. i know that some folks, especially some of the older people, really seem to look fwd to the time when they can connect with another human being. with some people, that’s all the human contact they get.
i’ve heard most everyone (not just here, but in person, too) denounce the practice as uncomfortable and unsanitary. to me, it’s a nice human touch. i think we’re all just a bit too paranoid about germs, anyway.
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ND_Mike
Guest
I know I’m a little late on this thread but I want to chime in. I personally find it distracting to hold hands during the our father. It’s definitely easier to concentrate for me when my hands are folded rather than being stretched with my neighbors. I also can’t stand waiting a few minutes so that everyone can move across the aisles to join hands. I also dislike the fact that it seems to anticipate the sign of peace.
I know people say that it is helps them feel as one. However, we respond as one throughout the whole mass. When we profess our faith we do it as one, yet we don’t hold hands. Just as we participate as one with our responses. Physical unity is not nearly as important as spiritual unity. I believe there is a problem if we do not feel as one when we profess our faith and pray with our entire soul.
I respect those who want to hold hands, but I feel quite awkward when everyone is holding hands and I choose not too. Many times I have been forced to hold hands, but in recent times I have stopped. It’s pretty discouraging when people seem offended when you don’t want to hold hands. That is why I close my eyes and bow my head my the Our Father starts.
I know people say that it is helps them feel as one. However, we respond as one throughout the whole mass. When we profess our faith we do it as one, yet we don’t hold hands. Just as we participate as one with our responses. Physical unity is not nearly as important as spiritual unity. I believe there is a problem if we do not feel as one when we profess our faith and pray with our entire soul.
I respect those who want to hold hands, but I feel quite awkward when everyone is holding hands and I choose not too. Many times I have been forced to hold hands, but in recent times I have stopped. It’s pretty discouraging when people seem offended when you don’t want to hold hands. That is why I close my eyes and bow my head my the Our Father starts.
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BayCityRickL
Guest
I don’t like the hand shaking or hand holding.
A few have mentioned that hygiene is an issue here. We’ve dodged the bullet on SARS (which is spread in an airborne manner) for the time being.
but, excessive hand contact SURELY passes germs along.
furthermore, the priest says “let’s share a sign of peace” which gets LIBERALLY interpreted to embraces, kisses, conversations, and even pats on the a–. That’s NOT what was intended and the whole thing has been overblown.
What makes this even more meaningless is that the assigned GREETERS in the church vestibule don’t greet! In our church, I usually encounter somebody who’s not really paying attention anyway, and tries to shove a hymnal in my hand as I reach for one from the stack.
The “sign” of peace was previously the “kiss” of peace and you know we “don’t want to go there.”
Hasn’t anyone heard of herpes? How about anthrax dermatitis?
Doesn’t anyone watch MONK on cable?
A few have mentioned that hygiene is an issue here. We’ve dodged the bullet on SARS (which is spread in an airborne manner) for the time being.
but, excessive hand contact SURELY passes germs along.
furthermore, the priest says “let’s share a sign of peace” which gets LIBERALLY interpreted to embraces, kisses, conversations, and even pats on the a–. That’s NOT what was intended and the whole thing has been overblown.
What makes this even more meaningless is that the assigned GREETERS in the church vestibule don’t greet! In our church, I usually encounter somebody who’s not really paying attention anyway, and tries to shove a hymnal in my hand as I reach for one from the stack.
The “sign” of peace was previously the “kiss” of peace and you know we “don’t want to go there.”
Hasn’t anyone heard of herpes? How about anthrax dermatitis?
Doesn’t anyone watch MONK on cable?
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
I can see that the “it’s fine with me” and “those who don’t have issues” mentality will persist.
Concerns for germs and “social connection” aside, the Mass is the property of the Church and is not to be interjected with our innovations.
The Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary, re-presented to the Father.
We faithful, having come together in the pews, prayed together, sang together, offer to the Father His own Divine Son, Our Lord, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.
We then consume this Lamb of God, uniting physically and spiritually as the members of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Now, that said, doesn’t hand holding seem to be just a tad superficial? How can anyone honestly say that hand-holding makes us feel closer to God, etc., etc., etc.
If only they knew the Mass!!!
Concerns for germs and “social connection” aside, the Mass is the property of the Church and is not to be interjected with our innovations.
The Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary, re-presented to the Father.
We faithful, having come together in the pews, prayed together, sang together, offer to the Father His own Divine Son, Our Lord, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.
We then consume this Lamb of God, uniting physically and spiritually as the members of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Now, that said, doesn’t hand holding seem to be just a tad superficial? How can anyone honestly say that hand-holding makes us feel closer to God, etc., etc., etc.
If only they knew the Mass!!!
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ND_Mike
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
Well said. That is exactly how I feel. I just couldn’t say it as beautifully as you did. :clapping:
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irish_mcmom
Guest
AMEN robertaf. Reading some of these posts, I am ashamed to be a Catholic; let’s remember that we are CHRISTIANS first. 35 years ago my mother would reach out and grab our pinkies with her pinky finger when we would say the Our Father. It was a way of linking us together while we proclaimed the prayer of praise that Jesus taught us. It is a natural link to the Sign of Peace, when you are to reach out to your neighbor, and ask that Christ bless them with His peace. When I touch another’s hand, I imagine Christ in them and say a little prayer that He will be with them today. It is the same when I am an EM, and I graize someone’s hand as I present the Eucharist to them; I ask Jesus to allow me to see him in all that I touch and visit while I present Him to them.
The majority of our parish holds hands, but generally it is families, and if they feel like reaching next to them to a stranger, they do. I always assume the orans position if I am alone at mass, I look at it as my way of opening myself up to God as I pray this special prayer. There are way too many semantics of things with the Chruch, and it sounds like many of of you are enjoying tearing down those people who choose to praise Our Heavenly Father in a way that is not yours. No one is trying to be disrespectful, they are simply trying to Praise God.
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Writer
Guest
I come from the Protestant tradition and have never witnessed it before now (in our Catholic Church). While it may not be comfortable for this Norwegian introvert
, I think it sends a strong statement of community.
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IrenkaJMJ
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
Beautiful! Couldn’t have said it better myself. And I mean that! You said exactly how I felt! Isn’t this a moot point anyway? From what I’ve read on EWTN and such, the orans posture isn’t proper and neither is holding hands during the Our Father. Continuing to do so is some form of disobedience, isn’t it?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I hadn’t been on this thread for a while; basically, just about everything that COULD be said (on either side) has been said.
The positions seem to crystalize into:
Two totally opposing views, each of which views the other not even as “different”, but DISRESPECTFUL, disobedient, uncharitable and unChristian.
There IS somewhat of a “3rd view”, the posters who neither go out of their way to initiate the hand-holding nor draw back if it’s offered. This, however, is a relatively small percentage of people, and if the reaction is that of accidie, or spiritual sloth, or laziness, it’s hardly praiseworthy.
I am of the opinion that, far from this being a “minor” issue, the “feelings and reasons” behind it prevail not just in this, but in EVERY issue, mostly Catholic but sometimes even not Catholic.
It appears to me that there is a tendency (whether it’s conscious or not I don’t know) lately to MAKE every issue into a one-way-or-the-other, uncompromising, black-and-white, this-or-that issue. Not only that, it appears that there is an even stronger tendency to DEMONIZE or dehumanize the “opposition”.
Have you noticed that people seldom perceive of words or actions as being neutral, capable of more than one interpretation, or benign?
On the contrary, if someone says or does something we don’t believe in or approve of, we act as though they are doing it, not because THEY believe in something we DON’T, but TO SPITE US. Deliberately, maliciously, to spite US. We are so touchy, so quick to take offense, to think the WORST of people, while at the same time, if people happen to say something we believe in or approve of, we will LAUD them, as though they are doing it to please US, and us ALONE.
I’ve noticed this trend since the 1970s, and it appears to be getting worse.
I don’t know what will happen. Common courtesy isn’t common anymore, and there have been enough developments in secular society to make it seem much more like pagan Rome or some dark-age city under seige; I think we definitely need to develop unity, but unity of what? That’s the question.
Hope posters here at CA are thinking ahead to tomorrow, Aug.31, and have signed on or will consider the Novena effort by PriestsforLife which will continue until Nov.2, Election Day. Keep our bishops, our clergy, and our politicians (not to mention us hapless electorate) in your prayers!
The positions seem to crystalize into:
- Hand-holding, orans etc. are distracting, invasive, innovative, were not properly interpolated but just “growed” like Topsy, are NOT “what I grew up with”, and could even be considered uncharitable and disobedient to the sacrifice of the Mass and one’s fellow parishoners.
- Hand-holding, orans etc. provide a display of unity, community, make me “feel good”, are what I “grew up with”, and NOT doing them could even be considered uncharitable and disobedient to the “spirit” of the Mass and Jesus’s teachings.
Two totally opposing views, each of which views the other not even as “different”, but DISRESPECTFUL, disobedient, uncharitable and unChristian.
There IS somewhat of a “3rd view”, the posters who neither go out of their way to initiate the hand-holding nor draw back if it’s offered. This, however, is a relatively small percentage of people, and if the reaction is that of accidie, or spiritual sloth, or laziness, it’s hardly praiseworthy.
I am of the opinion that, far from this being a “minor” issue, the “feelings and reasons” behind it prevail not just in this, but in EVERY issue, mostly Catholic but sometimes even not Catholic.
It appears to me that there is a tendency (whether it’s conscious or not I don’t know) lately to MAKE every issue into a one-way-or-the-other, uncompromising, black-and-white, this-or-that issue. Not only that, it appears that there is an even stronger tendency to DEMONIZE or dehumanize the “opposition”.
Have you noticed that people seldom perceive of words or actions as being neutral, capable of more than one interpretation, or benign?
On the contrary, if someone says or does something we don’t believe in or approve of, we act as though they are doing it, not because THEY believe in something we DON’T, but TO SPITE US. Deliberately, maliciously, to spite US. We are so touchy, so quick to take offense, to think the WORST of people, while at the same time, if people happen to say something we believe in or approve of, we will LAUD them, as though they are doing it to please US, and us ALONE.
I’ve noticed this trend since the 1970s, and it appears to be getting worse.
I don’t know what will happen. Common courtesy isn’t common anymore, and there have been enough developments in secular society to make it seem much more like pagan Rome or some dark-age city under seige; I think we definitely need to develop unity, but unity of what? That’s the question.
Hope posters here at CA are thinking ahead to tomorrow, Aug.31, and have signed on or will consider the Novena effort by PriestsforLife which will continue until Nov.2, Election Day. Keep our bishops, our clergy, and our politicians (not to mention us hapless electorate) in your prayers!
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IrenkaJMJ
Guest
Tantum, you’re speaking from the perspective that this issue is neither right or wrong, that it is merely a preference. I’ve read that the orans posture and hand-holding is not proper to do. Sometimes things are black or white. If it IS merely a preference, then you are 100% right.
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Trelow
Guest
I’m usually holding a baby, but when not I prefer the hand holding, to raising, but both are better than holding the pew, lol, the pew doesn’t need to pray with us.
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SuzAn
Guest
Most people in my parrish hold hands during the “Our Father”. I personally don’t feel it adds anything to the prayer and I usually take my cue from the people around me. If someone seems insistant on holding hands, I will participate, but If they don’t make a move toward it, I will refrain. It would be nice to have a definite position on the matter. I guess no one wants to make anyone feel left out.
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CatholicNurse
Guest
Recently we have been instructed to raise our hands in the Orans position in obedience to Bishop Griffin (Columbus Diocese). This instruction is being presented at the same time with corrections which we definitely need to make. Our priest has said hand holding is an option we can choose or not. My husband is very uncomfortable with this, but my teens and I have said we should be obedient. Any suggestions?
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1plus1equals2
Guest
There is no instruction, therefore do as you feel most comfortable. I think its stupid and next we will be jumping around on pues and screaming and dancing. Bring me back the old days of Organs, spoken prayers, and no guitars in church.
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MrS
Guest
“Instructed” to raise your hands???Recently we have been instructed to raise our hands in the Orans position in obedience to Bishop Griffin (Columbus Diocese). This instruction is being presented at the same time with corrections which we definitely need to make. Our priest has said hand holding is an option we can choose or not. My husband is very uncomfortable with this, but my teens and I have said we should be obedient. Any suggestions?
My guess is that there was no reason given. Or if there was one, it was for the sake of “unity”.
When handholding was getting "out-of-hand"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif in our parish, many just began to close their eyes, and fold their hands in prayer at the Our Father. It worked. Vertually no one holds hands now.
Now we are working on the “Sign of Peace”. Our music director only gives a few moments (5-10 seconds or so) before beginning to play again. Personally, I shake hands with two people, one on my right and one on my left (and perhaps a family member next to that one if family is with me.)
I prefer to save the fellowship for the coffee and donuts afterwards.
MrS
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