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dmm2000
Guest
I have a question for those who feel closer to God and their community by holding hands. “Does this make you feel closer to God and others than Communion?”
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Trelow
Guest
No, but do you feel closer to your family when you say “I love you”, or when you hug and say “I love you”?
Person to person contact is intimate, and helps to convey community.
Hmm, didn’t thing anyone was trying to rase prayer above Holy Communion.
To those opposed I ask this, with all thats hateful in this world, what’s wrong with a little more love and fellowship?
Person to person contact is intimate, and helps to convey community.
Hmm, didn’t thing anyone was trying to rase prayer above Holy Communion.
To those opposed I ask this, with all thats hateful in this world, what’s wrong with a little more love and fellowship?
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IrenkaJMJ
Guest
What about people from backgrounds or cultures that are not as physically demonstrative as we are? My mother is born and bred British and is not comfortable with holding hands with strangers. It does not give her a sense of community. Just discomfort. Is she wrong to feel that way? I don’t think, so. I know a Hindu gentleman who told me that no woman other than his wife or sisters is allowed to touch him. Now if he was to convert to Catholicism, how would he look on holding hands with a woman, not of his family? If you wish to hold hands go for it. But you shouldn’t assume that people who don’t are not as “loving” or do not feel as strong a sense of community that you do.
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dmm2000
Guest
Trelow,
Thanks for your response. However, I do believe that the Sacramental effects of the Eucharist is the focus the Sacrifice of the Mass is trying to convey.
That even when we do not “feel” or “see” communion we are actually held in Communion with our Lord, the Church faithful, Church suffering and Church triumphant.
I am all for more fellowship, and I am also in favor of coming to a greater understanding of the Eucharist in the Mass.
Peace
Thanks for your response. However, I do believe that the Sacramental effects of the Eucharist is the focus the Sacrifice of the Mass is trying to convey.
That even when we do not “feel” or “see” communion we are actually held in Communion with our Lord, the Church faithful, Church suffering and Church triumphant.
I am all for more fellowship, and I am also in favor of coming to a greater understanding of the Eucharist in the Mass.
Peace
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
You’re comparing apples and oranges here. Expressing sentiments of love to your family members is one thing, expressing worship and entrustment to the Heavenly Father is another. If you are focusing on the LORD (it is called “the Lord’s Prayer”) then holding your neighbor’s hand really has no meaning, except that it makes “some” people “feel good.”
Now you equate intimacy with community. The two are very different. I hug and kiss my spouse and kids, but do not do the same with the UPS man, the mail man, the grocery bagger, the bank teller. All of those are members of my community, with whom I interact, smile, converse, but not so intimate as to hold hands or hug. While there may be nothing wrong with doing so, it would simply be inappropriate, and might make them feel uncomfortable; therefore I would not impose such physical contact upon them.
Nothing is wrong with more love and more fellowship. But with all the disobedience in the Church these days, wouldn’t obedience to the rubrics be nice? We can express our love and fellowship outside Mass. Mass is not a gathering of persons to express love and fellowship for each other ~ that’s what protestants do. Mass is a gathering of the faithful to experience the Sacrifice of the Cross, offering the Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus Christ, to the Father, in atonement for our sins.
It’s not a “kumbaya experience,” nor a “company picnic” atmosphere…at least, it shouldn’t be.
Pax Christi. <><
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CarmelTherese
Guest
You know, I just started looking at this forum today. I read everything everyone had to say back to the beginning. And my conclusion is that I don’t think I want to associate with these forums at all. The language toward one another is mean and arrogant and defensive – not at all how Catholic brothers and sisters should be talking to each other. No wonder Protestants accuse us of ritualizing everything – we fight over holding hands for goodness sakes! Didn’t Jesus say something about straining on a knat and swallowing a camel?
I hope you all can figure this out, if it is so important to you. I will be praying for you. Just remember to treat each other like brothers and sisters – not enemies.
Thank you for my say, and goodbye.
Carmel
P.S. I always thought Jesus started the Mass, not the Church.
I hope you all can figure this out, if it is so important to you. I will be praying for you. Just remember to treat each other like brothers and sisters – not enemies.
Thank you for my say, and goodbye.
Carmel
P.S. I always thought Jesus started the Mass, not the Church.
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Crusader
Guest
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most precious thing we have here on earth. It deserves to be defended and upheld. While difficult language is never appropriate, neither is changing the Mass.
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Veronica_Anne
Guest
Wait a minute!!! Other lay people behind the altar during the Lord’s Prayer!??
First of all – NOBODY’s to be behind the altar at any time other than the priest unless it’s the Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist (i.e.: “servers”) who are waiting to receive the host for their own Communion as well as the bowls and cups that they bring down from the sacristy to hand over to the Faithful. So, what are they even doing there when the Lord’s Prayer is being said?
Second of all – WHAT other lay people would be so presumptuous and disobedient as to go up into the sacristy, at all!!??
There’s much more OFF here than the holding hands schism!
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
Veronica Anne:
Make that, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
Someone seems a little hastey in the judging department, if you ask me!
Ah, well, to each her own…
Go in peace!
PS: Jesus started the first Mass, and then what? He instructed the Apostles to continue doing this “Do this in memory of me.”
The Apostles were the first bishops, the first authorities of the Church, and they were given the awesome responsibility of safeguarding the Holy Mass.
Today, while the Holy Father urges us not to tamper with it, the bishops of America turn a blind eye (or worse yet, even celebrate) at Masses full of liturgical abuses.
Holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer isn’t a major liturgical abuse, but it is a problem, in that it is an “invention” of men not formally adapted by the authorities who regulate the liturgy.
Just because we strain a gnat doesn’t mean we’ve swallowed the camel, either.
Eucharistic abuses are the worst, and the most serious. But this thread happens to be about a lighter, yet persistent, illicit practice, if you will.
Sorry you find our passion for the Mass not to your liking.
I’m sure there is a forum out there somewhere where all we do is compliment one another on our liturgical abuses…maybe try call to action, or voice of the faithful? (just kidding. Don’t want you to lose your soul.)
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Trelow
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
Besides holding hands isn’t quite as intimate and washing feet.
I’m in RCIA, so yup, I’m still a Protestant, more or less, hence my different perspective.
Just sharing my view.
Right, but I thought Catholics called it the “Our Father”, Doesn’t the our imply community? We all are praying together, as one FAMILY. When you are baptized you are adopted into Christ’s family, if you are uncomfortable that is a shortcoming you should strive to overcome. Myself I have worked very hard to overcome, as I am not naturally inclined to show emotion with physical contact, but we are called to love one another as Christ loves his Church.
Besides holding hands isn’t quite as intimate and washing feet.
I’m in RCIA, so yup, I’m still a Protestant, more or less, hence my different perspective.
Just sharing my view.
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deogratias
Guest
But don’t have to “touch” to love one another.
Love is the daily stuff, the way we live our lives. Love is the ability to hate the sin but forgive the sinner. Love is reaching out to someone in need, not reaching out to hold their hand at Mass.
Love is self-sacrifice and sacrifice without love is difficult and irritating but perfect love can make sacrifice a joy. Love is a willingness to give in a greater proportion than we receive.
Love is that GI in Iraq willing to give his life for me and my country. Love is making someone a promise and keeping it. Love is being told someone’s shameful secret and not revealing it… Love is being kind, merciful and forgiving. Love sees his own shortcomings in another’s faults. Love is thankful for every day the Lord has made and “counts his blessings” and does not whine about his lot in life.
I love you all but unless you are my immediate family or an intimate friend, I probably won’t hold your hand while we pray the pater noster at Mass.
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loyola_rambler
Guest
Panis Angelicas:
I really don’t care about the hand holding one way or another. The kids and I will continue doing it, whether you like it or not. If someone puts out their hand in friendship, I’m not a prude and I’m not going to refuse them. God is NOT going to hate us, banish us nor turn us to pillars of stone for the act. With all the legitimate issues this Church needs to be dealing with, this entire discussion is plain revolting and insulting. Get a life, people!
Frankly, what bothers me far more than holding a strangers hand is that there are fellow Catholics out there judging and critiquing how each of us worships. THAT IS BLATANTLY UNCHRISTIAN. The NCCB/USCC has been very clear that neither the Orans nor handholding is a “liturgical abuse”, yet so many ramble on and on and on as though it’s the downfall of Catholicism. Give it a frigging rest!It’s sad that some people still think that the Mass needs to be changed to give them a "feeling" of closeness to God.
There we stand, speaking to the heavenly Father in the very words Christ taught us, just before we offer the Savior’s Body and Blood to the Father, and receive that same Body and Blood ourselves, and yet…it’s still just not enough…:nope:
Maybe if we hold hands, then our neighbor will ***“feel” closer to God…***
I really don’t care about the hand holding one way or another. The kids and I will continue doing it, whether you like it or not. If someone puts out their hand in friendship, I’m not a prude and I’m not going to refuse them. God is NOT going to hate us, banish us nor turn us to pillars of stone for the act. With all the legitimate issues this Church needs to be dealing with, this entire discussion is plain revolting and insulting. Get a life, people!
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deogratias
Guest
And this is not judging and critiquing that you are doing?
For future reference could you please quote the document and paragraph number that says this? thank you.
I don’t think this is acceptable language "
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again isn’t this judging - judging that those that hold a different opinion than you on hand holding have no life.
I must say that after posting such a scorching angry message, the little “God Bless You” at the end seems insincere. But God Bless You also.
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OhioBob
Guest
loyola rambler:
I always tell myself that there is no point to discussing this topic in these threads since we all agree to disagree, and then a sentiment like yours just makes me respond after all. Go figure.
Speaking only for myself, the point of this issue is not that it is a big deal worthy of great argument. I admit that it is a small thing. But that is the point. Small things add up to big things.
Frankly, I could not care less whether anyone holds hands with anyone else during the Lord’s Prayer at Mass. It’s a small thing. The problem that I (and other non-hand-holders) have expressed is when small things like that become not just personal expressions of piety, but real adaptations inserted into the liturgy in one parish or another as “the way we do things here”.
We all have heard the statistics regarding the decline in Mass attendance and the declining belief in the Real Presence and heard stories about the general loss of the sacred in the liturgy. I submit that these larger issues rise (or at least gain momentum) from the loss of control over such seemingly small adaptations.
For my part, I like knowing that I can walk into a Catholic church anywhere and participate in the one true sacrifice of the Mass - the SAME liturgy no matter where I go. The Church assures me that that is my right as a Catholic. Unfortunately that isn’t always the case.
Sure it’s a small thing, but what was the old saying - “take care of the small things, and the big things will take care of themselves”.
So go ahead and hold hands. Or not. I don’t care. Really. I’ll love you just the same and I won’t cringe or cry out if you touch me during Mass.
Just don’t expect your personal practices to become a part of everyone’s liturgy just because you prefer it that way. That’s the part that I do care about.
As for whether God is (figuratively, of course) holding His head or His stomach over this issue, I like to think that He is holding His breath. To see whether we truly treasure the gift of the liturgy, or whether we would rather fiddle with it however we see fit to make it more palatable to modern sensibilities.
Blessings.
I posted this on another thread of the same topic, so excuse me for being lazy and repeating myself. But I don’t want to miss an opportunity to earn someone’s wrath…
I always tell myself that there is no point to discussing this topic in these threads since we all agree to disagree, and then a sentiment like yours just makes me respond after all. Go figure.
Speaking only for myself, the point of this issue is not that it is a big deal worthy of great argument. I admit that it is a small thing. But that is the point. Small things add up to big things.
Frankly, I could not care less whether anyone holds hands with anyone else during the Lord’s Prayer at Mass. It’s a small thing. The problem that I (and other non-hand-holders) have expressed is when small things like that become not just personal expressions of piety, but real adaptations inserted into the liturgy in one parish or another as “the way we do things here”.
We all have heard the statistics regarding the decline in Mass attendance and the declining belief in the Real Presence and heard stories about the general loss of the sacred in the liturgy. I submit that these larger issues rise (or at least gain momentum) from the loss of control over such seemingly small adaptations.
For my part, I like knowing that I can walk into a Catholic church anywhere and participate in the one true sacrifice of the Mass - the SAME liturgy no matter where I go. The Church assures me that that is my right as a Catholic. Unfortunately that isn’t always the case.
Sure it’s a small thing, but what was the old saying - “take care of the small things, and the big things will take care of themselves”.
So go ahead and hold hands. Or not. I don’t care. Really. I’ll love you just the same and I won’t cringe or cry out if you touch me during Mass.
Just don’t expect your personal practices to become a part of everyone’s liturgy just because you prefer it that way. That’s the part that I do care about.
As for whether God is (figuratively, of course) holding His head or His stomach over this issue, I like to think that He is holding His breath. To see whether we truly treasure the gift of the liturgy, or whether we would rather fiddle with it however we see fit to make it more palatable to modern sensibilities.
Blessings.
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deogratias
Guest
Well said and I would say this is my objection as well.
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loyola_rambler
Guest
It’s posted on the nccbuscc website. The links have been posted at least half a dozen times on this website.
As for the rest of your message…God love you for who you are. But I’ll agree to disagree with you. This is such a stupid issue that it’s no wonder the pews empty. Nobody wants to touch each other. Nobody wants to pray together. Nobody sees community as a worthwhile part of the mass. So why even go to mass? Watch it on TV in the privacy of your own home and have the Eucharist sent by Fed Ex if you’re so afraid of being touched by the person next to you in the pews.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
loyola rambler:
B) Kiss of Peace. The Kiss of Peace is not optional. Any parish that does not have this Kiss of Peace is simply out of order. No successor of mine will change this integral part of the Mass.
Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long.
Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000
Well even a few very liberal bishops have remarked on the practice (as well as some others):
B) Kiss of Peace. The Kiss of Peace is not optional. Any parish that does not have this Kiss of Peace is simply out of order. No successor of mine will change this integral part of the Mass.
Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long.
Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000
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deogratias
Guest
This is what the US Bishops say - that is not quite the same as your saying that have issued a statement saying hand holding is not an abuse.
What is says is that they have not made any ruling on it one way or the other as yet.
Nevertheless the instructions for the Priests do say they are to use the Orans position and that means they should not be holding hands with the altar boys or girls.
My objection is to people trying to push their private prayer positions on to me and saying I shouldn’t even bother to go to Mass if I don’t want to touch you - good grief.
Well the Mass I attend, the Indlt Tridentine Mass does not require us to touch - no hand holding and no sign of peace (which is optional even at the N.O. Mass depending on the priest celebrating - except I see Cardinal Mahony says it is is not optional in the above instruction).
You do as you choose rambler and I’ll do as I choose - I won’t make you worship my way if you will not force me to do it your way.
Try not to get so upset over it or this thread - it is bad for your blood pressure.
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dessy
Guest
well in my parish people only hold hand if the priest officiating ask them to join hands together,individuals may wish to raise hand out of his or her own free will fine but is not condemed. ones action depends on how one is moved,the church neither condems it nor approve it.the spirit of God touches in different ways.thanks
dessy.
dessy.
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