Hand holding and Raising during the "Our Father"

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I have searched for where I found the part about the laity not assuming the orans position and I cannot find it anywhere. I know that the previous thread on this subject had some quotes about it but I can’t find it now. I even showed it to my wife who is a cradle catholic and has always held out her hand and responded (An also with you) and after reading the article she stopped doing what she had done since childhood. I would hate to have stopped her if I read the statement wrong. If anyone know where this is written let me know.
 
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Michael:
I have searched for where I found the part about the laity not assuming the orans position and I cannot find it anywhere. I know that the previous thread on this subject had some quotes about it but I can’t find it now. I even showed it to my wife who is a cradle catholic and has always held out her hand and responded (An also with you) and after reading the article she stopped doing what she had done since childhood. I would hate to have stopped her if I read the statement wrong. If anyone know where this is written let me know.
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EWTN has some resources on the subject:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm

They aren’t official Church documents but they do explain the issues pretty well.

Blessings.
 
here is another article for the members of this forum to read and make comments. adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
 
Good Morning Church

I think we should all pray, pray, pray that God has a real sense of humor. I can only imagine His thoughts as he watches some of this.

“Love one another as I have loved you.” I wonder if He has such hesitation about reaching out and touching each of us?

Every day, I see what He meant that we must be like little children. We do set an example for them. They seem to love to reach out and hold a neighbors hand.
 
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robertaf:
Good Morning Church

I think we should all pray, pray, pray that God has a real sense of humor. I can only imagine His thoughts as he watches some of this.

“Love one another as I have loved you.” I wonder if He has such hesitation about reaching out and touching each of us?

Every day, I see what He meant that we must be like little children. We do set an example for them. They seem to love to reach out and hold a neighbors hand.
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Yes, He would have when it deals with obedience. Christ perfected all vritues. If the Church does not allow holding hands (which is protestant), which She doesn’t, then it is an iddue of obedience. Christ would not be disobedient.
 
Greetings

I do not pretend to know exactly how Jesus would view this.

He didn’t hesitate to correct even Peter before He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and even after that, Paul challenged Peter and Peter listened.

Since this is not infallible Doctrine, and since even Bishops and Priests cannot agree if holding hands is forbidden, He might have quite a lot to say.

I do know that he preached love, and He gave great examples about how we should love. He was described as embracing. From the earliest Church, a KISS peace was exchanged, not a handshake.

Jesus also had a lot to say about folks who put rules above all else. Following rules to the letter is not his message and He made it clear that will not save your soul.

In view of all this, I am not saying we should not be obedient. We should but I think we need to get our priorities straight.
Without Love, everything is nothing.
 
Thankfully I’ve got a sense of humor 🙂 I can’t believe how serious the tone gets about a relatively new custom (I’m certain this was not done all my years in the 60’s and 70’s and I know it’s not done in the TLM)…

They’ll have to engrave on my tombstone: Condemned to eternal damnation because she “didn’t wanna hold your hand” (sung in my best Beatles voice).

JELane
 
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robertaf:
Good Morning Church

I think we should all pray, pray, pray that God has a real sense of humor. I can only imagine His thoughts as he watches some of this.

“Love one another as I have loved you.” I wonder if He has such hesitation about reaching out and touching each of us?

Every day, I see what He meant that we must be like little children. We do set an example for them. They seem to love to reach out and hold a neighbors hand.
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With all due respect, I think that you are missing the point.

Those of us who are not in favor of the orans and hand holding feel that way because we believe in the value of tradition, ritual and rubrics. Just as words have meaning, so do gestures. In the Mass, everything has meaning and purpose. Injecting novelty into the Mass diminishes the meaning and obscures the purpose.

I don’t know about you, but I have enough trouble with weakness as it is. I rely upon the Mass as a rock of stability in a constantly shifting world. If the Church officially changes it, I will dutifully comply. If it is constantly shifting, adapting and evolving thorugh novel adaptations, I will resist.

I trust God to understand my motives and guide my actions. If I give him a reason to chuckle on my account, that would be a bonus. 😉

Blessings.
 
I just want my mass to be right. I am new and learning and it is hard to learn something and then find out you and your church are doing things wrong. I just want to learn the correct way the first time.
 
I also agree with Ohio Bob- no more novelties, birthday songs, applause for the band, extra sign of peace ect. Not to mention the orans position by laity looks really silly,
 
Wow i did not realize that this was such a problem for some people.🙂

I go to mass in and around all the churches in the archdiocese of san antonio and it’s quiet a sight when the entire congregation can come together hand and hand and pray the Lords perfect prayer.

But most of san antonio is like me,hispanic, and were a touchy - feely lot.😃
 
After being on the orans thread (and witnessing that we can be MOST passionate on issues that we care deeply about), it was nice to see that this thread seems to reflect a more balanced (on the whole) and loving view on the part of both “opposing” practitioners.

I know that I myself have a definite preference regarding posture, and that on more than one occasion I have felt “negatively” towards those whose posture differed from mine.

Then I have chastized myself for being uncharitable. I’ve asked myself, “Why do I feel the way I do?” If I’m being honest with myself, IMO it’s not the of another which offends me, it’s that I feel that MY choice (which I happen to think is best) is being insulted by someone else choosing differently.

But then I think, "Wait. If YOU are approaching this after due deliberation, prayer and study, as , don’t you think other people may have had equal deliberation, prayer and study and come to a DIFFERENT conclusion? What you consider good, they may not, and vice versa. And THEY may feel the same anger (except that’s too strong a word) because of MY choice “insulting” THEIRS.

Is there a solution to the dissention? Surely a statement from the USCCB mandating a UNIFIED posture (whichever one they choose) would HELP. But it doesn’t look as though we’re going to get that help, for whatever reason.

IS it really such a tremendous big deal as to whether Mr. X and Mrs. Y “orans”, the Z family holds hands, and Ms. B folds her hands? Must only ONE posture prevail? By having “diversity”, are we disrespecting God for selfish reasons? Or not?

I did think, and part of me still yearns for, that we should be “one” in our gesture/ posture.

But that simply may not be possible. Even in the time of the apostles, there were differences in gesture, language, culture, tradition, even “discipleship”–i.e., “I belong to Paul, Cephus is mine, I am of Apollos” etc. Surely, surely, belonging to CHRIST is the key here.

So I have made up my mind (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) that, for once, I am not going to even THINK about what “others” are doing, provided they are not engaged in abuse (cartwheels, breakdancing, the macarena), and “offer it up”, in that I want to focus solely on God’s will for me. I think at this time, for myself, if I’m focused more on what I feel others are doing WRONG, I’m going to miss what I myself need to be doing RIGHT. And until I can get THAT done properly, even if the issue on posture is meritorious, it’s not necessarily something I need to focus on , especially if I’m doing so in a negative instead of a positive way.

Oh Lord, may I want only what You want, when You want it, where You want it, and however You will it.
 
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dhgray:
WOW…I didn’t realize how passionate some people were. It’s had to believe but now i understand why there are so many problems in the catholic church. Too many SELF-CENTERED
and SELF-ABSORBED people. The ones who do not want to be touched or reach out are probably the same ones who run for the door right after the Eucharist (“Do not stop at GO do not receive the Final Blessing” or try to get out of the parking lot as fast as you can.) How very judgemental of you. I highly doubt that those who want to observe the Church’s rubrics are eager to exit prematurely.
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I enjoy holding hands, first with my immediate family and second with my extended family (the church member next to me). But what does the church say about this?
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Pope Leo XIII and Pope John Paul II were very clear on this point:

Pope Leo XIII: Thus, the separation which pride would set up tends to disappear, nor will it be difficult to make rich and poor join hands in friendly concord.

Pope John Paul II: Coming together, they are able to discuss their most intimate aspirations, experience the Church as communion, make a commitment to the urgent task of new evangelization. And in doing so, they join hands, forming an immense circle of friendship, uniting in faith in the Risen Lord all the different races and nations, cultures and experiences.

Pope John Paul II: I am convinced that if we join hands in the name of God we can accomplish much good .

I hope I am seated next to you in the Mass, I’ll extend my hand to you, my Christian Brother or Sister. Whether or not you take my offering is between you and God.It’s fairly obvious that you’re taking the popes’ figurative expressions regarding holding hands out of context. Neither pope was referring to a hand-holding gesture during Mass, I’m quite sure.
The Mass is a gift from the Church, and it isn’t the non-hand holders who want it THEIR way.

We want it the way THE CHURCH has laid it down for us. Read the Roman Missal, read Inaestimabile Donum.

The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful…“No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

These will tell the difference between true liturgical actions and creative innovations by persons who have no authority whatsoever to interject anything new, including gestures, into the Mass.

I’m all for hand-holding, while walking through the park, at prayer meetings, at a restaurant while saying grace. I like hand holding as much as the next person…But I will not alter the Mass that the Church has given us. It isn’t my right, nor is it yours.

When you are at Mass and you offer your hand to someone else, you are saying that YOUR way is better than the Church’s way…You like it, so that makes it right.

Now who’s “SELF-CENTERED and SELF-ABSORBED”?

Pax Christi. <><
 
I have never done either holding hands or raising them during the Our Father; but I haven’t studied the matter fully.
 
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OhioBob:
EWTN has some resources on the subject:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm

They aren’t official Church documents but they do explain the issues pretty well.

Blessings.
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Thanks for the helpful information. To truly stop liturgical variations and abuses, I think it will be necessary for the Vatican to develop, step-by-step procedures, postures, and gestures for each Catholic rite. Once the detailed norms are established, they must then be clearly communicated to all the faithful and enforced.
 
Unfortunately, even if the Vatican went that far (which I doubt it will ever do) there will always be dissident bishops and priests, and ignorant or prideful laity who think they can improve upon the most perfect prayer Christ and His Bride, the Church have given us ~ The Holy Mass.

Since pride was the first sin (of Lucifer) it must make him oh so happy to see it worming its way through the Mass under the false appearance of piety and unity…

Pax Christi. <><
 
Panis Angelicas:
How very judgemental of you. I highly doubt that those who want to observe the Church’s rubrics are eager to exit prematurely.
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…When you are at Mass and you offer your hand to someone else, you are saying that YOUR way is better than the Church’s way…You like it, so that makes it right.

Now who’s “SELF-CENTERED and SELF-ABSORBED”?

Pax Christi. <><
Perhaps there is a need on both sides to take a chilly pill here. It would be the height of irony, would it not, if we were to make the centerpiece of our unity into a source of strife?

This argument is over holding hands during prayer and raising hands in prayer, not turning the temple into a house of thieves. It almost sounds as if we think someone who is stubbornly in error as to rubrics is trying to stage some sort of a coup d’etat.

Rome, as a rule, does not throw down gauntlets and crack heads, does she? I think the Vatican usually makes her corrections firmly and in no uncertain terms, but also in the most pastoral manner that can be mustered.

I struggle with this, too (as anyone who has read my posts knows!) but try to be as patient and kind as you can. Or as the saying goes, remember that the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.
 
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