Hand holding and Raising during the "Our Father"

[dhgray]

My appologies to all. I was being judgmental and inconsiderate to those who wish not to touch or be touched.

 

[majahnke]

I had heard on Catholic radio from an apologist that holding hands at the Our Father undermined the subsequent event of a sign of peace. He claimed this because in America, the standard sign of peace is a simple handshake and the holding of hands is something far more intimate. Thus, we ought not do something that surpasses, in its intimacy, the sign of peace when that act precedes the sign of peace during the mass. Just another perspective…

Mark

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Agreed. And I did offer that perspective up in post #10, along with several other good reasons that I’ve learned along the way as I’ve grown in understanding and appreciation of the Mass.

As far as taking a chilly pill goes, no need.
I expected that when I pointed out the hypocracy and innacuracy of certain remarks, someone would take my admonition as an angry retaliation. That was not my intent. My intention was corrective only.

As far as dhgray’s apology, that’s very nice of you. But I think you still miss the point. It isn’t that we don’t want to be touched. I’ll reach out and touch as many of my neighbors as possible when the appropriate time comes, when the celebrant instructs me to. I, and others like me, simply don’t like to see the Mass “tampered with.”

I want to be able to participate in the Mass that the Church has laid down, not the “new and improved” version with additions and deletions according to the whims of the celebrant or my pew buddy.

The Mass is too perfect for us to make improvements upon it. As it says in Inaestimabile Donum, such tampering “offends the ecclesial sense.”

So, it’s not an aversion to touching which is the issue. It’s tampering with the Mass that the Church has laid down for us. Hope you understand a bit better where we’re coming from, my friend. (((hugs)))

Pax Chrisit. <><

 

[otm]

I am constantly amazed at the furor that hand holding during the Our Father raises. And the furor, by and large is from those who don’t want to. Those who want to hold hands don’t seem to be overly upset with those who don’t (with the exceptions of those occasions when someone has reported that they would not, and got a dirty look). and even the exceptions seem to be few; they certainly are in my experience.

1. there simply is no rule one way or the other. It is not in the rubrics; but given a few things that have happened and been said recently, it is at best difficult to draw valid conclusion that because it is not in the rubrics, it is therefore prohibited.
2. With both the publication of the most recent issue of the GIRM, and the subsequent document concerning abuses (0ne of these days I’ll memorize the name of it), Rome had ample time and opportunity to address it, and they chose not to. Given the items that were addressed in both documents, and the fact that there has been vocal protest over hand holding for quite some time, it is simply not possible that Rome did not know about the issue. Therefore, the conclusion is that it is a non-issue with Rome.
3. Recent statements by bishops (including Archbishop Chaput; not someone I would call a “liberal”) indicate that the bishops are well aware of the protests, and it is a non-issue to them.
4. There are an amazing number of comments about holding hands with strangers. There aren’t many strangers in my parish. There are people I don’t know well, and given it is a suburban parish, a fair amount of turn over with new people coming in. But I find myself seated next to another parishoner almost every Sunday (once in a while it is a visitor). Stranger???
5. I truly wonder what the response would be if Rome were to put hand holding in the rubrics. Perhaps we would see the response similar to kneeling for Communion (Rome said I can’t be denied Communion if I kneel, therefore it is perfectly o.k. for me to kneel even though the rubrics say stand)?
6. I don’t much care whether we hold hands or not; it is a non issue. But I am highly amused by the vehemence of many who don’t want to hold hands. And I have yet to find anyone who can tell me from a liturgical why we shouldn’t. There is a reason why it does not make for good liturgy, but no one in this thread has brought it up. And a careful reading of the GIRM should be a clue, but it is not spelled out specifically.

 

[system]

It’s so funny that we all read the same posts, yet come out with such different impressions–it seems to me (yep, a non-holder) that it’s the holders putting up the fuss, LOL.

JELane

 

[KCT]

ridesawhitehors:

FONT=Verdana]otm…Its just that a couple of weeks ago someone insisted on grabbing my hand and I wouldn’t let them…

Someone once pulled my hand out of my pocket to hold it. I was stunned. I hold hands w/ my family; if I’m by myself, I fold my hands and bow my head. Frankly I don’t like being forced to hold hands with strangers because I don’t know where their hands have been and when they last washed! When I have a cold, I refrain from shaking hands at the sign of peace. —KCT

 

[Servulus]

otm:

I am highly amused by the vehemence of many who don’t want to hold hands.

Also interesting is that folks on both sides of this question have expressed no opinions or concerns about what people do with their hands during the other 95% of the time they spend at Mass.

 

[Mandy_Ione]

Nobody at my church holds hands. We used to hold hands as a family, but now with two infants we’re usually holding them instead. I miss holding hands as a family and with close friends in the church, but I’m uncomfortalbe holding someones hand that I don’t know very well. I never used to care, but our second child has had so many illnesses that it makes me think twice about holding someones hand that I don’t know.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

otm:

I am amazed at the furor that hand holding during the Our Father raises. And the furor, by and large is from those who don’t want to.

Could it be because it is because it is our hand, attached to our body, which we don’t want to be grabbed, held, and elevated during the Our Father?

Those who want to hold hands don’t seem to be overly upset with those who don’t (with the exceptions of those occasions when someone has reported that they would not, and got a dirty look)

Actually, the scowls, judgemental remarks, and backhand slaps generally come from the hand holders, the non hand holders are content to just focus on the Heavenly Father and be left alone.

1. there simply is no rule one way or the other. It is not in the rubrics;

Precisely.

it is at best difficult to draw valid conclusion that because it is not in the rubrics, it is therefore prohibited.

Why is it so difficult to conclude that? The GIRM is a list of “do’s,” not “don’ts.” If it does not say, “do this,” then we shouldn’t invent a posture and impose it upon our neighbor. Hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer has NEVER been called for by the Church: it is an innovation, an invention, someone being a little "creative" with Christ’s Mass.

1. With the publication document concerning abuses (0ne of these days I’ll memorize the name of it),

Redemptionis Sacramentum. Repeat ten times.

Rome had ample time and opportunity to address it, and they chose not to.

RS only re-states previous documents, and focuses on the most grave abuses: concerning the Eucharist. Have you read it?

the conclusion is that it is a non-issue with Rome.

They’re writing specifically about abuses of the Eucharist. Apples and oranges.

1. Recent statements by bishops indicate that bishops are well aware of the protests, it is a non-issue to them.

Maybe that’s cuz no one is grabbing at their hands?

1. an amazing number of comments about holding hands with strangers. There aren’t many strangers in my parish. There are people I don’t know well, and given it is a suburban parish, a fair amount of turn over with new people coming in. But I find myself seated next to another parishoner almost every Sunday. Stranger???

Are these familiar folks persons who you’d hold hands with under any other circumstance? Or, is it just a “liturgical thing?” Families, I can see holding hands, though it is not called for in the rubrics. But someone with whom you are less intimate? *WHY?! Why do you folks insist upon holding hands? Cuz it makes ya “feel good?” *
Do hand holders care that they are interrupting their neighbor, who is praying to the Heavenly Father? Do they care that they are distracting him, invading, imposing, and perhaps even annoying, infecting? Apparently not. And then the “victim,” the one who is being imposed upon against his will, is stereotyped as the “bad guy.” tsk tsk. :tsktsk:

1. I wonder what the response would be if Rome put hand holding in the rubrics. Perhaps we would see the response similar to kneeling for Communion?

Since I’m one of only a few in my parish who kneel to receive Holy Communion, and who bow during the Incarnation verse, I’d follow Rome. Does that surprise you?

1. I am highly amused by the vehemence of many who don’t want to hold hands. And I have yet to find anyone who can tell me from a liturgical why we shouldn’t.

Please read my post #10.

There is a reason why it does not make for good liturgy, but no one in this thread has brought it up. And a careful reading of the GIRM should be a clue, but it is not spelled out specifically.

So, spell it out for us ignorami.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[seeker63]

I’d never seen the hand-raising thing before I started going to my current church. I thought it was a Pentecostal thing.

I’m one of those people who hates to be touched, no matter where I am. I especially don’t like being touched by strangers. BUT I feel the hand-holding is probably God’s will for me because it forces me to interact with my fellow man in a way I wouldn’t otherwise. It’s awkward for me, but it is a bond.

The first time I ever attended a Mass I did a double take when I saw black and Asian people file into the church. But understand, I grew up in the South, where segregation still exists in many churches. I’d never been to any church where the congregation was anything less than lily-white.

As soon as I’d noticed the diverse crowd, my conscience asked, “You got a problem with that, pal? Doesn’t everybody deserve access to God?”

Well, of course they do.

And then it dawned on me: the Catholic Church is indeed CATHOLIC. It isn’t just a Church for white Southerners.It’s the Church for all mankind. And that just impressed the heck out of me.

Your comfort level, my comfort level–they don’t matter.The Catholic Church, or so it seems to me, levels the playing field, making us all equal in the sight of God.

So that is why I’m willing to submit to something than normally makes me highly uncomfortable.

 

[otm]

Panis! Testy, testy! Truly, I’m not intending offense. I have, only in a few instances, seen someone refuse to shake hands (anywhere; I’m not referring to Mass). I find the “I don’t want to be touched” response a little hard to understand when it is a fellow parishoner. That may be a part of the furor; but I find it hard to understand.

It is difficult to conclude that it is prohibited specifically because a) it is an item over which much fuss has been made, (along with many other items); b) it is simply not arguable that the bishops, or the vast majority of them, haven’t heard about it, along with all of the liturgists who had (name removed by moderator)ut on the GIRM; c) there are 2 philosophical approaches to law: Germanic, or “what is not allowed is prohibited”, and Mediterranian, or “what is not prohibited is allowed”, and the last time I checked, the See of Peter was not in Bonn; and d) the statements of several moderat to conservative, very orthodox bishops who say it is a non-issue.

Thanks. I’ll say it ten times, but with the problem I have remembering people’s names… I’m lucky I remember my own… And yes, I have read it. And I don’t have any bones to pick with it. And it wouldn’t have hurt if it had come out 20 years ago…

No, I don’t think it is a non-issue with the bishops cuz no one is grabbing their hands. I think that there are levels of issues, and this one is so low as to border on no issue at all. It is poor liturgical action. I don’t think it is an abuse at all.

I don’t want to stereotype anyone as a bad guy. In another thread on this issue, however, there were several comments that were just plain un-Christian (purposely wiping one’s nose and then reaching out? Please!). And I would be the first to speak out to anyone who tried to force someone else to hold hands. Like I said, to me either way is fine.

I read your #10. At least you were closer in part of it than almost anyone.

Ignorami? tsk tsk. OK, I will give it a try. Liturgy needs to have a pace, or a flow, if you will. It is not willy-nilly. Each liturgical act has a meaning. Sitting, standing and kneeling all have meaings. Like it or not, holding hands is a sign of unity. However, holding hands during the Our Father, then releasing hands for a very short prayer, then the Kiss of Peace, makes for a disjointed series of acts. Given the Kiss of Peace is a form of blessing (The Lord be With you", or “May the peace of Chirst be with you”) and also an opportunity of reconcilliation (Honey, I’m sorry I snapped at you as we were getting ready to come to Mass), and involves movement, it makes more litugical sense in terms of movement, to not be moving just prior to that. Rubrics are simply the codification of liturgical reasoning (and that does not suggest that I believe in experimentation). The Our Father is particularly a community prayer and holding hands is an expression of that communal aspect. There seems to be a strong implication of inidvidual, isolated prayer through the comments. We enter as community; we listen to the Word as community; and we offer Sacrifice as community. Isolated from any other liturgical act, holding hands is an expression of community. However it is not isolated, but part of a liturgical series of acts and it disrupts the flow of them. It jsut plain makes poor liturgical sense in the overall scheme. And for that reason, we would all be better off without it.

But if someone reaches out to hold hands, I will. And if the majority of people are holding hands, I will. And if I can do it unobtrusivley, I won’t.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

otm:

I find the “I don’t want to be touched” response a little hard to understand when it is a fellow parishoner.

This is what I don’t understand: some people’s refusal to understand! I have no aversion to human touch. I’ve got 12 kids and four grandkids. I’m actually a warm, fuzzy, huggy person. I hold hands with someone nearly everyplace I go. (I still have five year old twins and a one year old!)
I simply desire to attend the Mass that the Church has given us.
Why can’t I?
Why is it that so many folks feel the need to create a new and improved version of what is already the most perfect prayer on earth?
I find it very, very tiresome to constantly be referred to as someone who doesn’t want to be touched…As though I walk around with white gloves or desire to live in a bubble.
Do you know me?
Do you know my likes and dislikes? My wants? Don’t think so.
All I want is an unadulterated Mass.
Is that so wrong?
And that is all that I try to point out in my posts. I haven’t mentioned that I’ve seen folks picking their noses right before the Our Father, but I have seen it! I felt sorry for the poor schmuck who was standing near the nose-picking adult, because surely they’d seen it and would then have to shake this guy’s hand at the Sign of Peace. (The individual sat right up front and obviously had some mental problems. He kept obsessively wiping the contents from his nostrils all across the front pew. Thank heavens, this was not in my home parish. What a distraction!)
But that has NOTHING to do with why I won’t hold hands.
It has everything to do with why I kneel during the consecration, even in parishes where no one else does.
This isn’t “my Mass,” to change and add and omit as I see fit.
It is Christ’s Mass, and I follow it and participate as the Church has laid down.
I used to hold my hands in the orans posture, until I learned it was wrong for the laity. I quit immediately.
I want to give to GOD all that He desires of me. If He wants me to hold hands, I’m sure he’ll send the Holy Spirit to inspire the Magisterium to incorporate it into His Mass.
But as a pion in the pew, I’m not the one to be adding new gestures.

That may be a part of the furor; but I find it hard to understand.

There is no furor, otm. You’re reading something into this debate which is not there, at least on my part. There’s no furor in my heart over this issue. There’s just a deep desire for understanding.
I’d like folks to understand what the Mass is, and what it isn’t. It’s not a social gathering.
It is a Sacrifice.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I’m lucky I remember my own…

Me too. Memory is the first thing to go…

And it wouldn’t have hurt if it had come out 20 years ago…

True that, but really, there’s not much “new” in it. It’s just trying to clean up the more serious abuses that were abuses 20 years ago and still exist today.

No, I don’t think it is a non-issue with the bishops cuz no one is grabbing their hands.

That was a joke. Didn’t ya see my ?

I think that there are levels of issues, and this one is so low as to border on no issue at all. It is poor liturgical action. I don’t think it is an abuse at all.

I agree! And that’s why I don’t like it. I want a true Mass, as laid down by the Church. Hand holding is poor liturgical action. Not only is it distracting and disruptive, but it’s just plain silly right at that spot. I almost want to laugh out loud when I see whole pews of grown ups holding hands. Looks like kindergarten and ring around the rosey or something. It just looks silly.

(purposely wiping one’s nose and then reaching out? Please!).

I usually read these threads and never saw a comment like that. I did post recently that I had a sneezing attack just as my priest called upon the parish to applaud someone. Fortunately, I was blowing my nose and unable to clap, as I find that to be another illicit imposition of gesture.
I read your #10. At least you were closer in part of it than almost anyone.

The Our Father is particularly a community prayer and holding hands is an expression of that communal aspect. There seems to be a strong implication of inidvidual, isolated prayer through the comments.

No, not isolated prayer. As you state:

We enter as community; we listen to the Word as community; and we offer Sacrifice as community.

We don’t have to hold each other’s hands to show that we’re a community, and holding hands doesn’t make us any more of a community than if we didn’t. It’s really meaningless, as far as the liturgy is concerned.

Isolated from any other liturgical act, holding hands is an expression of community.

You hold hands with the Mayor of your town? The postman? The grocery store check out kid? :nope: Try holding hands with your neighbor’s spouse, or the waitress at the next restaurant in which you dine, for a period of, oh, say as long as it would take to recite an Our Father.
Either they’ll recoil, or you’ll get slapped! (Maybe slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit!)
Holding hands is a sign of intimacy, not community. Not that that matters all that much.

It jsut plain makes poor liturgical sense in the overall scheme.

Isn’t that what the Pope Paul VI already said so eloquently, and is repeated in Inaestimabile Donum?
"Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Michael]

Panis you are so right. I look forward to reading your post. You put into words my thoughts on this matter. I plan on using some of your quotes when I debate this with my priest.

 

[VincentO]

Just a point of view from the UK…

During the Our Father here, we tend to stand, hands together followed by a handshake at the sign of peace.

I’ve been invited before to ‘all hold hands’ but otherwise people almost always seem to follow the same pattern, wherever I’ve been.

To my mind, it’s the sincerity of prayer that counts, or am I being silly? It only takes a second to hold the hand of the person next to you, if asked!

What if the person next to you really needed the comfort of holding the hand of another? If you knew them to be berieved or hurting, surely you wouldn’t hesitate…so what’s the difference when you know nothing about them?

Would you really turn them away because it’s not in the rules? For holding hands? Because it makes you feel a bit uncomfortable? It’s these sort of things about people that we never know!

Just a thought. I don’t believe it’s something to get too hung up on!

Vince

 

[Debbie]

VincentO:

…What if the person next to you really needed the comfort of holding the hand of another? If you knew them to be berieved or hurting, surely you wouldn’t hesitate…so what’s the difference when you know nothing about them?

Would you really turn them away because it’s not in the rules? For holding hands? Because it makes you feel a bit uncomfortable? It’s these sort of things about people that we never know!

At the risk of sounding cold, I’m not at Mass to focus on my fellow parishioners’ needs. We all attend Mass as a community in thanksgiving for Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

AFTER Mass, AFTER leaving the sanctuary quietly I will hold anyone’s hand, give hugs, kisses and support. I will also, if needed, deliver meals, make phone calls to check in, and offer Masses and prayers for their intentions.

DURING Mass I am there for God.

Also, as I’m sure others have pointed out, it’s not called for and it displaces the main sign of community during Mass which is Communion.

Most people who want to hold hands are doing it just because everyone else is and it “feels good.” I also hate having my arms raised up (by my neighbor) during “For the kingdom, etc…”

Sorry! I’m one of those grumpy ones about it!

Debbie

 

[asquared]

our girl scout troop was ecumenical, mostly Catholic girls from several parishes and public schools, some non-catholics, met in a presbyterian church. we ended each meeting with an our father, taps, a girls scout song, all while in a circle holding hands crosswise, ending with a friendship squeeze. I could tolerate the hand-holding OF if the people on either side of me (each about 8 inches taller) didn’t insist on dragging my arms up at the end violently, and squeezing my hands. put that together with bone crushing handshakes during the sign of peace and this arthritis sufferer is a total wreck. for the sake of christian charity, I keep my hands in my pockets and smile.

 

[bengal_fan]

boromir:

It seems to me to be a quick, unobtrusive way to follow Christ’s command to love one another. It is also a directive by the priest, who has authority over me. Anyone who refuses to shake hands at the sign of peace is rude in my book. A lack of curtesy like that cannot be explained away by piety. Christ commanded us to love God AND love our neighbor.

we could all go back to “greeting each other with a holy kiss” as paul commanded. i don’t think many want to do that so just be a neighbor and shake hands. i agree with boromir (other than him trying to steal the ring from frodo).

 

[robertaf]

bengal_fan:

we could all go back to “greeting each other with a holy kiss” as paul commanded. i don’t think many want to do that so just be a neighbor and shake hands. i agree with boromir (other than him trying to steal the ring from frodo).

I agree too.

**ROBERTA<------ ** shakes her head.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I greet my pastor with a holy kiss after each Mass.

Surprised?

And my kids all hug him.

Vincent,
If someone is berieved, why would they just want to hold hands during the Our Father? Why not during the Gospel, or the homily?
Why would anyone who needs human touch only need it during the Our Father?

It isn’t because someone needs human touch; it’s because it has become a specific (albiet wrong) liturgical action during a particular part of the Mass.

What if everyone began putting his right hand on the left knee of the person sitting to his right during the first reading? Would you agree with that?! It doesn’t say not to in the rubrics!

Pax Christi. <><