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BBoy
Guest
Please Help!! In what document(s) does the Church condemn hand holding during the Our Father and/or shaking hands during the sign of Peace. Thank you.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I don’t know about the hand-holding. The shaking of hands isn’t forbidden, as some sort of exchange is supposed to take place. I suppose it could be a nod of the head or a “Peace be with you.” It’s supposed to be restricted to those immediately around you.
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jmcrae
Guest
No where. Some people are afraid of germs, so they don’t like to touch other people’s hands. In a case like this, just respect their wishes and don’t touch their hands - but if someone wants to hold your hand during the Our Father, there is nothing that says you can’t - and the traditional form of greeting here in English North America is to shake hands, rather than give a kiss on the cheek, etc. as they do in other places for the sign of peace.
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kangnamdragon
Guest
Holding hands during the Our Father is not forbidden. It should not be done becuase it is NOT in the GIRM. Also, what is the point of the sign of peace after you have already held hands with people?
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jmcrae
Guest
The meaning of the Sign of Peace doesn’t change based on your posture during the Our Father.
The idea behind the Sign of Peace is Christ’s command to us to Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. (Matthew 5:24)
The purpose of the Sign of Peace is to symbolically make peace with “thy brother” - that is, everyone in the world that you have offended. (Hopefully, you are already at peace with them before you come to Mass, and you have been to Confession for anything serious, but the sign of peace is to represent that this has been done. The person you share the sign of peace with represents everyone in the whole world.)
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teachccd
Guest
Ways of receiving germs at mass: 1) Touching the door handle on the way in. 2) dipping your hand in the Holy Water while blessing yourself. 3) touching any part of the pew 4) handling the hymnal and/or the misslette 5) receiving the Host form a priest or minister who has not washed their hands. 6) passing the offering basket 7) taking a Church bulletin and 8) the Holy Water and door handle on the way out.
Silly me. Did I forget to mention perhaps holding hands during the Our Father??
Silly me. Did I forget to mention perhaps holding hands during the Our Father??
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adrift
Guest
People who like to do this often say that the GIRM does not forbid it. This is a misunderstanding of what the GIRM is. The GIRM is proactive, meaning it tells you what you may do not what you cannot do. There are those that say, "well it doesn’t tell you to fold your hands either. The problem with that reasoning is that the GIRM directs community action not private. Since most everyone holds hand, even reaching across isles it becomes an action that takes on a community action. As such, it is not in the GIRM permitting this community action.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Right! According to the logic behind “it’s not forbidden,” well, neither would crawling to Communion on your knees be forbidden.
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mgy100
Guest
Why are Americans so afraid of contact with another human being.
Perhaps I should start a plastic bubble factory that will allow everyone to be isolated but still move about in public.
Perhaps I should start a plastic bubble factory that will allow everyone to be isolated but still move about in public.
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adrift
Guest
The following is the best explanation I have seen.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=323498&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=holding+hands&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=49&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=323498&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=holding+hands&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=49&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Why are you classifying ‘all’ Americans as the perjorative’ afraid of contact with another human being’ simply because some people correctly note that this gesture is not in the rubrics (it isn’t), came up ‘of its own initiative’ a relatively short time ago rather than following the pattern of other ‘gestures’ in Mass, supersedes the ‘true’ sign of our communion in reception of the Eucharist, and so, in obedience to their informed consciences refrain from ‘doing it?’
Obviously you don’t ‘mind’ doing this gesture but you have no right to take it upon yourself to make blanket generalizations which are uncharitable and mean-spirited, and for a majority flat-out wrong, regarding people who do not do that gesture.
Dang, where’s the ‘sister shaking the ruler’ smiley?
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otjm
Guest
By your logic, then neither should anyone ever hold their hands palms together, fingers either interlaced or pointed outward or upward, as that is nowhere to be found in the GIRM either, in spite of the fact that it is a traditional posture of prayer.
Rome, in answer to a dubium concerning whether people had to remain standing after returning to their seat after Communion until all had received, said in part that they did not intend to regulate posture that strictly. The same applies to hoding hands during the Our Father.
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otjm
Guest
That is not entirely true; the GIRM regulates psoture to a certain extent. Saying that it is community posture doesn’t answer the question; if all are holding their hands in the traditional prayer posture, that is a community wide posture.
This was being done as early as 1965; in the 1970’s Rome rewrote the GIRM (and was well aware of the hand-holding posture as people were already complaining) and did not address it. They rewrote the GIRM again in the 1990s and again did not address it. As Rome wrote in a response to a dubium, they did not intend to strictly regulate posture. Twice they had the opportunity to outlaw it and twice they did not. It is time to take the hint.
Archbishop Chaput, someone hardly in the camp of the liberals, and someone with a bit more training in liturgy than most people complaining of hand holding has said publicly that it is simply not regulated as to the posture during the Our Father; to those who wish to hold hands, they are free to do so and should not be criticized; and to those who do not wish to, they should be allowed to not hold hands and not criticized.
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otjm
Guest
The most recent news seems to be that the Pope is considering moving the Kiss of Peace to another part of the Mass. Which may solve Colin’s complaint.
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otjm
Guest
I suppose I could chime in about “correctly formed consciences”, but I’ll refrain…
As Archbishop Chaput says, those who don’t wish to should not be forced to hold hands, and they should not be criticized.
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adrift
Guest
Yeah I have heard this for the last five years.
What is not entirely true? I never said that is didn’t regulate posture. No if the individual is in a traditional prayer position than it is an individual action. If a priest says, everyone must fold their hands than it become community otherwise it is just individual.
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sneakers
Guest
I would rather not shake hands but I do…reluctantly.
I also do not hold hands during the Lords Prayer.
Sorry if that bothers anybody. It has nothing to do with germs or trying to avoid human contact.
I also do not hold hands during the Lords Prayer.
Sorry if that bothers anybody. It has nothing to do with germs or trying to avoid human contact.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
As well you should.
Since “Rome” has just started addressing the difficulties from the improper applications by U.S. bishops on the documents from Vatican II (which did not call, for example, for Mass to be completely in the vernacular), it is not surprising that we are just now beginning to see the correction of wrong practices.
I saw the ‘explosion’ of handholding at its inception in my diocese. I also saw my bishop’s gentle and loving clarification of posture, given in August of 2006. So I am not only in dutiful obedience to my bishop, I think that my ‘correctly formed’ conscience is pretty thoroughly validated in this matter. If you wish the caveat “in my diocese” I’ll gladly give it. For I foresee that in order to achieve the unity so sadly lost to U.S. Catholics that my diocese will be one of the first to ‘conform’, and will not be the last. Blessings on Archbishop Chaput; I am sure that he will be very happy to weigh in further on the subject when the reforms are further along.
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otjm
Guest
Since it is not regulated, it is not a change. A change is doing other than what a specific direction indicates.
As I said, Rome has pointedly and specifically ignored the issue for about 42+ years; not only in the GIRM but in other documents related to the Liturgy of the Mass.
If you don’t like it, don’t hold hands. You are not required to (and oh, how loud the complaining would be should they require it). But quit complaining about the issue; Rome is eminently aware of the issue and has pointedly ignored it. They have not required it, and they have most obviously chosen not to address the issue in the numerous instances they have had to do so. The non-answer to all the repeated complaints for these 40+ years is deafening.
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