Handbells During Divine Liturgy?

[Volodymyr]

SOCIETY OF BELL RINGERS RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH

I have nephew who is member of the Society of Bell ringers (zvonari) of Russian Orthodox church. Such organization has list of various bell ringings - Blatgovest, trezvon, etc., and prayers for Zvonar’. Site is in Rusian but can be translate by certain programs.

zvon.ru/zvon4.view1.html

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[OhMalley]

I understand what you are looking for, I think. Am I correct in thinking that you wonder about the use of the sanctus bells (little bells) in the Divine Liturgy at the time that the bigger bells that are outside of the Church would be rung?

If so, I would still have to say no as the question asked of Rome was “can we use the little bells”, and the answer was “No the little bells are excluded:”. Neither the question nor the answer listed an explicit use of the bells so all we can no is that the little bells are not to be used. That is unless one reads into the document.?

Please keep a couple of things in mind.

First; with that question “can we use the little bells”, they were specifically asking if they could they continue to ring bells during the Divine Liturgy per the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In other words they were asking if they could continue a Latinization. Their question did not mean “in the absense of large tower bells may we use hand-held bells?” There is a huge distinction there.

Second; I have seen small bells rung at Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgies. They were little by any measure although not hand-held and they were rung from what amounted to a vestibule. I’m fairly certain THAT situation would be formally allowed yet it would still contravene your understanding of the rubrics.

Third one need not “read into” the document. But one must know what they were actually asking and it was ALL about the Latinization.

If a clarification is necessary then it must come from Rome, until then it appears that the answer is that they are not to be used.

No. It may come from one’s Bishop – not that one would be needed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please keep a couple of things in mind.

First; with that question “can we use the little bells”, they were specifically asking if they could they continue to ring bells during the Divine Liturgy per the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In other words they were asking if they could continue a Latinization. Their question did not mean “in the absense of large tower bells may we use hand-held bells?” There is a huge distinction there.

Please show me where it says that in the document. It does not so you can not assume that.

Second; I have seen small bells rung at Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgies. They were little by any measure although not hand-held and they were rung from what amounted to a vestibule. I’m fairly certain THAT situation would be formally allowed yet it would still contravene your understanding of the rubrics.

Ruthenians are not Greek Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New York city also has an organ that they play during the Divine Liturgy.

Third one need not “read into” the document. But one must know what they were actually asking and it was ALL about the Latinization.

Again, what they “actually” asked is printed for us to see.

No. It may come from one’s Bishop – not that one would be needed.

Then why was Rome asked at all in the first place?

 

[OhMalley]

Please show me where it says that in the document. It does not so you can not assume that.

That document using the language we have discussed was aimed at an audience who had intimate knowlege of the circumstances surrounding the request You clearly do not. That’s the difference. In retrospect their language is imprecise for those who don’t undertand the background of this specific Latinization issue.

You seem to think that a reductionist mindset replete with a literal (in other words your “personal”) interpretation is what’s called for and you couldn’t be more wrong.

It might very well be that a bishop would say “no” to using small bells (once he’s defined small bells I suppose) at the correct points before and during the Divine Liturgy but that cannot be deduced from the language we have talked about.

That’s because that language was focused on something else – the Latinization of ringing bells per the requirements of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass during the Divine Liturgy and not the physical size of the bell – no matter what the language says to you based on your own personal interpretation.

So just what is a “small bell?” You seem to think all you need is that document (and no other outside knowledge) so tell me, based on just the document, what is a “small bell?” 4" diameter? 5"? 6"? 7? In my world of campanology those are very small bells but I want you to tell me what the document defines as “small bells” if all we need to do is “literally” interpret the document as you suggest.

Please don’t try to define “small bells” as hand-held bells – the document does not say that. If that’s what the document means you would have had to have supplemental information from another source – which you suggest is not needed.