Handing Over Relics to the Orthodox

[HagiaSophia]

International
Row as Vatican returns relics

ROME, NOV. 28. Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians were on Saturday night locked in dispute over an 800-year-old war crime and a box of 1,600-year-old bones that was meant to have brought them a giant step closer to reunification.

At a ceremony in St. Peter’s Basilica on Saturday, the Vatican handed back relics belonging to two saints of inestimable importance to the Orthodox world. It had been hoped the return of the remains of the 4th century prelates, St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian, would be the most important symbolic contribution to relations between the two churches since the meeting between Pope Paul VI and the then titular head of the Orthodox Christians 40 years ago. But as the two men’s successors, Pope John Paul II and the ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, presided over the ritual, the Pope’s spokesman issued a statement contradicting the Orthodox version of history. It also emerged that the Vatican would not be handing back all the bones.

A part of the relics
A single line in a booklet prepared for the ceremony said the pontiff was returning only “a part of the relics.” The Vatican appeared to have been stung into action by Orthodox claims the bones were stolen by Crusaders. In a sermon on Saturday, Patriarch Bartholomew said the handing back of the relics was a “warning to all those who arbitrarily possess and retain treasures of the faith, piety and civilisation of others.”

A press release from the ecumenical patriarchate last week said the bones of both saints were stolen after Crusaders seized the then capital of the Byzantine empire, Constantinople — the modern-day Istanbul — in 1204. “After the pillage that followed, the holy relics of both these two saints were taken first to Venice, and later on to Rome,” said the statement. But according to the Pope’s spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, St. Gregory’s bones “reached Rome in the 8th century, at the time of the Iconoclastic persecution, so that they could be kept safe.”

An earlier statement had said they were brought by Byzantine nuns. As for St. John, the Holy See’s daily bulletin of last Wednesday said they had been transferred to Rome “probably at the time of the Latin empire of Constantinople (1204-1258).”

Navarro-Valls said “certain media” had portrayed the pontiff’s gesture as a `reparation’ and a means for the Pope to “beg pardon” on behalf of the Catholic church for the removal of the relics from the ecumenical patriarchate during the crusade.

This interpretation, said Navarro-Valls, was “historically inexact.” The handover was a “return, not a restitution.” The Pope himself did some sly point-scoring in a sermon yesterday, noting the two saints “always professed their communion with this Apostolic see, the Church of Rome.” Both men died long before the schism that split Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics in 1054…"

"…Yesterday’s dispute risked weakening the position of Patriarch Bartholomew, whose close ties with Rome have been criticised by other Orthodox leaders.

Date:29/11/2004 URL: thehindu.com/2004/11/29/stories/2004112902411100.htm​

 

[bengeorge]

Sigh… once again pettyness and he-said-she-said has snatched divisiveness from the jaws of reconciliation.

I don’t blame either side in this conflict, it seems pretty clear to me that there is enough blame to go around for all.

When Christ returns, will He find any faith on the earth? or just partisan squabbling? What a tragedy.

Well, HagiaSophia… thanks for keeping us updated on the whole ecumienism thing, sad as the results may be.

 

[oat_soda]

why are you taking seriously an article published on a website called “the hindu”??? it’s obviously biased.

 

[oat_soda]

ROME, NOV. 28. Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians were on Saturday night locked in dispute over an 800-year-old war crime and a box of 1,600-year-old bones that was meant to have brought them a giant step closer to reunification.

what dispute?? why do you take seriously claims maid by a website called “the hindu”?? why not check on what the taliban and al qaeda have to say about it, or jimmy swaggart?

 

[HagiaSophia]

oat soda:

what dispute?? why do you take seriously claims maid by a website called “the hindu”?? why not check on what the taliban and al qaeda have to say about it, or jimmy swaggart?

For your edification:

1. The report is a wire story by John Hooper out of Rome
2. The Hindu is the national newspaper of India and operated by the Guardian/Observer UK (does that make it better for you?)
3. It is not necesary to be holier than the pope or anyone else who posts in the forum
4. Frankly, I found the tone of your post supercilious and rather officious and it’s not the first time.

 

[HagiaSophia]

bengeorge:

Sigh… once again pettyness and he-said-she-said has snatched divisiveness from the jaws of reconciliation.

I don’t blame either side in this conflict, it seems pretty clear to me that there is enough blame to go around for all.

When Christ returns, will He find any faith on the earth? or just partisan squabbling? What a tragedy.

Well, HagiaSophia… thanks for keeping us updated on the whole ecumienism thing, sad as the results may be.

My ecumenical heart is beginning to remind me of a sanctuary lamp - it gets lit and burns with hope and joy. Then this kind of thing occurs and it dims and goes down to the size of a well used votive candle.

One step forward always seems to cost us 4 backward.

I take hope in remembering that Judas robbed the common purse and yet was an original apostle, that Peter and Paul duked it out, and yet we survived. But oh how I wish it was different! As you can see even in this thread - we have a long way to go and yet the journey has at last begun. (Sigh).

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

HagiaSophia:

But oh how I wish it was different! As you can see even in this thread - we have a long way to go and yet the journey has at last begun. (Sigh).

You can see footage from the ceremony in the Vatican
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047327.stm#

And this article I’ve attached finishes with something very encouraging -
**
“a unity or reunification
according to the historical
models of the first millennium.”**

Ratzinger first said this in a lecture he delivered in 1986, and since then he has said it on other occasions. What actually constituted the ‘historical models of the first millennium’ is not agreed upon by the Catholics and the Orthodox, but if Ratzinger becomes the next Pope we may hope for some fruitful movement in the dialogue.

Fr Ambrose

---

Return of Relics to Rekindle Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue
Event Will Help Bridge the Gap, Says Archimandrite

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 25, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Theological dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is expected to resume after the relics of Sts. Gregory Nazianzen and John Chrysostom are returned to the patriarch of Constantinople.

On Saturday, John Paul II is scheduled to turn over the relics of the doctors of the Eastern Church to Patriarch Bartholomew I, in an ecumenical ceremony in St. Peter’s Basilica. The ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople, “first among equals” among the Orthodox, will be in Rome for a two-day visit.

“For us, the significance of this event is very great,” said Archimandrite Ignatios Sotiriadis of the Greek Orthodox Church, in statements today to Vatican Radio.

“The return of these relics means that one more bridge is created between the sister Churches of Constantinople and Rome, between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox,” he said. The Patriarch of Constantinople is in Istanbul, Turkey.

“The handing over of the relics,” the pontifical council said in a
statement, “is a profound encouragement to walk the path of unity: the mortal remains of the two saints, patriarchs of Constantinople, who did everything possible to safeguard unity between East and West, venerated in their land of origin, welcomed with great honors in the Church of Rome, which for many centuries has preserved and venerated them, walk once again on the path to the East, thanks to this gesture of spiritual sharing which nourishes and fortifies communion between the Sees of Peter and Constantinople.”

When they arrive in Istanbul later on Saturday, they will be stored in a chapel of the patriarchate and, on the feast of St. Andrew, Nov. 30, they will be permanently placed in the patriarchal Church of St. George.

Regarding Catholic-Orthodox relations, Archimandrite Sotiriadis said: “The problem that remains to be surmounted is ‘Uniatism.’” This expression refers to Eastern-rite Catholics who live in Eastern European lands of Orthodox majority.

“This problem must be surmounted, but it has been decided that ecumenical dialogue, like theological dialogue, will be resumed after the handing over of these famous relics to the ecumenical patriarch and after the feast of St. Andrew,” the archimandrite said.

“Discussions will begin with the Petrine ministry and then the other questions will be addressed,” he added. "I believe that our religious leaders, ecclesiastics, our superiors of the Churches have yet to sit down at a round table, perhaps behind closed doors, to discuss a speedy process of rapprochement of the Churches.

The archimandrite said he believes that a future of unity passes through the path traced “by all our Orthodox theologians and all our historians, as well as by famous theologians of the West, of the Catholic Church, such as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, **who speaks about a unity or reunification according to the historical models of the first millennium.” **

ZE04112506

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

You can see footage from the ceremony in the Vatican
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047327.stm#

Thank you - I shall try and see if my antique computer can manage the video - sometimes it does, and then sometimes it has a mind of its own.

I do not want to sound pessimistic, I am a particular fan of Cardinal Ratzinger and I believe history will treat him far more kindly than have his contemporaries. He is the only cardinal I know of who has ever had his own “fan club” on the internet.

But practically speaking, barring a miracle, a nimbus and a dove circling him at conclave, the progressives would chew nails before they would let him be elected pope. He hath served his king too well. They will not forgive him for it. May God bless and reward him mightily for what he hath wrought in the church.

 

[oat_soda]

1. Frankly, I found the tone of your post supercilious and rather officious and it’s not the first time.

first of all, i don’t know what supercilious means, or officious for that matter, second, who is john hooper? Finally, the fact it has any ties to the UK makes me more suspicious, it’s a near neo-pagan society only out-done by the Scandinavian countries.

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 25, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Theological dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is expected to resume after the relics of Sts. Gregory Nazianzen and John Chrysostom are returned to the patriarch of Constantinople.

ahhh, a much more positive spin on the story. i do trust zenit.org.

but if Ratzinger becomes the next Pope we may hope for some fruitful movement in the dialogue.

couldn’t agree more, i hope Ratzinger is our next pope, he’s my hero (and JPII). my only concern is that he’s getting old. he would also fix the liturgy which would help.

 

[jimmy]

Regarding Catholic-Orthodox relations, Archimandrite Sotiriadis said: “The problem that remains to be surmounted is ‘Uniatism.’” This expression refers to Eastern-rite Catholics who live in Eastern European lands of Orthodox majority.

Why is uniatism such a problem for unity? I don’t see the problem.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

oat soda:

first of all, i don’t know what supercilious means, or officious for that matter, second, who is john hooper? Finally, the fact it has any ties to the UK makes me more suspicious, it’s a near neo-pagan society only out-done by the Scandinavian countries.

Not like the USA, of course.​

ahhh, a much more positive spin on the story. i do trust zenit.org. couldn’t agree more, i hope Ratzinger is our next pope, he’s my hero (and JPII). my only concern is that he’s getting old. he would also fix the liturgy which would help.

Ratzinger is probably more likely to be a “number 2” - the sort of person who is too valuable and efficient as a subordinate ever to get the top job.​

Ratzinger has been too much of a divider - as JP2 has also been called this, the Cardinals may well play safe (AFA they can) and elect someone they think they can trust to be a uniter - someone not too likely to last for twenty years. As they are all JP2’s creations, it will be fascinating rto see who is elected. But Ratzinger is almost as old as Roncalli was, when he became Pope: and he is no Roncalli. ##

 

[HagiaSophia]

Gottle of Geer:

Not like the USA, of course.

Have to admit, that cracked me up.
Gottle of Geer:

As they are all JP2’s creations, it will be fascinating rto see who is elected.

Doesn’t really have much bearing as they were named early, middle and late pontificate and range from conservatitive to wildly progressive.
Gottle of Geer:

But Ratzinger is almost as old as Roncalli was, when he became Pope: and he is no Roncalli.

Thanks be to God, one Roncalli ws quite enough for one lifetime. I still think all things staying as they are now, it could well be Tettamanzi. But then, things don’t stay as they are now.

 

[Digitonomy]

jimmy:

Why is uniatism such a problem for unity? I don’t see the problem.

I suppose there would be the question of whether, say, the Romanian Catholics would continue to be a separate Church of the Byzantine Rite under Rome, or would the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church exercise authority over all Catholic-Orthodox faithful in Romania, as he feels entitled to in the Orthodox tradition.

 

[MeaCulpa]

first of all, i don’t know what supercilious means, or officious for that matter

Try the dictionary.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

An interesting response to the papal gesture of handing back the sacred relics, from an English Orthodox priest.

orthodox.clara.net/editorial.htm

Historic Handover, New Challenges

BBC article
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4047327.stm

The historic return of relics of St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian (Fr. Gregory’s saint) pillaged in the Fourth Crusade by the Pope to the Ecumenical Patriarch is both a significant event and a welcome act of goodwill and goodness. By itself the return will not solve the continuing serious theological disagreements between Rome and Orthodoxy. By itself, it won’t heal the divided cultures and memories of both churches but it will signal to many the utmost seriousness and hope that should characterise relations between both churches. It is another gesture in the process of a deepening friendship in Christ … not, it must be said a friendship that is welcomed by all sections of the Orthodox Church … particularly in Russia and on Mount Athos. Be that as it may, the return of the relics is, arguably, an important development.

Where do we go from here then? This is a but a personal view of the author…

There is, I think, a tendency in the Roman Catholic Church to minimise the outstanding disagreements between both Communions. It seems to many of us Orthodox that Rome is too tolerant of theological diversity (which will strike many Protestant Christians doubtless as extremely ironic if not incredible!) It seems to us that Rome can encompass quite a wide range of theological positions PROVIDED that the central authority of the magisterium and the papacy itself is accepted. Indeed many Roman Catholics justify the papacy in its present form on the grounds that central control is necessary to reign in the centrifugal tendency of all those movements that have long characterised the Latin Church in the Second Millennium. It is well known that the Orthodox Church does not have monastic orders but, rather, simply monks and nuns living out the consecrated life in different styles and circumstances. Renewal movements are relatively unknown as well, although Zoe in Greece might be an exception to that rule. This means that for us, central authority in the manner of Rome today is both without precedent, authority and usefulness. Here perhaps is the most difficult issue between Rome and Orthodoxy. It is matter of both churches radically different models of common life and structures developed to sustain that.

If this is a significant issue then the existing emphasis in ecumenical dialogue on doctrine and ecclesiology needs to be complemented by greater attention to such differences in both churches’ common life. Rome is extremely unlikely to abandon its support for internal differentiation in renewal movements and monastic orders. Too many vested interests are at stake even for the papacy to tackle. Likewise, Orthodoxy is not about to introduce a similar model for its own common life. It simply isn’t necessary. So is a tempting case of “live and let live?” Maybe. Perhaps, though, if there is to be any future in an enlarged Catholic-Orthodoxy (choosing my words with care!) then there needs to be a greater convergence in those elements of Church life that take the centre to the periphery (Rome) and the periphery to the centre (Orthodoxy). Perhaps this process will at a stroke resolve the issue of both the papacy and Orthodox unity. Maybe we really do need each other after all … not because we judge ourselves lacking anything as to our strengths, but, rather that we need each other for our weaknesses. The strengths will be then be part of a potentially greater whole; the weaknesses points of learning and growth together in Christ for did not the Apostle St. Paul say:-

*“Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfil the Law of Christ” * (Galatians 6:2).

Fr. Gregory

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

An interesting response to the papal gesture of handing back the sacred relics, from an English Orthodox priest.

What a fine writer. How refreshing to hear someone rationally, dispassionately and objectively state an opnion. I think he made some wonderful points. I suspect the pope would discuss it in the same manner. We are all going to perish separately if we keep hiiding our lights under bushels - the world and its history is lying in wait for us all. And I think I’'ve said before, we were persecuted together, we died in the gulags and prison camps together - surely we can learn to live and prosper together.

 

[oat_soda]

It seems to us that Rome can encompass quite a wide range of theological positions PROVIDED that the central authority of the magisterium and the papacy itself is accepted.

this seems true. vatican II acknowledged a hierarchy of truth and the aim in ecumenism is to focus on what is shared vs. what is different. i think the theological differences between the Orthodox and Catholics can be resolved without compromise. the Melkites are a good example. the role of the pope in the east will have to be ironed out of course.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Zenit Reports:
“Christians – Catholics and Orthodox – should go beyond suspicions and slander and recognize themselves reciprocally as Christians,” Cardinal Kasper proposed in his message to Bartholomew I, according to Vatican Radio.

The return of the relics of the Fathers of the Eastern Church has not been “simply a gift or a sign of merely human friendship,” the cardinal said.

“They are the relics of two profoundly venerated witnesses and of two teachers of our common faith of the first millennium, a faith to which East and West have remained faithful in the second millennium, and which we are called by our common Lord, Jesus Christ, to witness to together in the third millennium,” he added.

“What unites us is, therefore, much more than a human communion; it is a communion in faith,” the papal representative said.

Yet, he lamented, “we are aware” that communion between Catholics and Orthodox “is not yet full communion.”

Cardinal Kasper proposed that they reinforce their “will to advance on the path to full communion.”

In particular, the cardinal appealed for the reactivation, “without delays, of the international theological dialogue” between Orthodox and Catholics, blocked by differences over Eastern-rite Catholics who profess fidelity to the Pope and who live in predominantly Orthodox countries.

While in Istanbul, the Vatican delegation is holding discussions with the Orthodox Synodal Commission for Relations with the Catholic Church.

Code: ZE04113007
Date: 2004-11-30

 

[Hesychios]

jimmy:

Why is uniatism such a problem for unity? I don’t see the problem.

digitonomy:

I suppose there would be the question of whether, say, the Romanian Catholics would continue to be a separate Church of the Byzantine Rite under Rome, or would the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church exercise authority over all Catholic-Orthodox faithful in Romania, as he feels entitled to in the Orthodox tradition.

The issues are more complex, but the fate of the Eastern Catholic churches has largely been decided upon:

If there ever is a reunion, those Eastern Catholic churches that derive from Orthodox churches as their mother churches will reunite, and cease being separate entities.

In other words, our mission is to disappear, at least we expect to.

But Uniatism as an issue exists as a problem now. We will not understand the issue until we view it with Eastern eyes, since we are westerners we have to put on these special 3D glasses: :whacky:

Many of the Eastern Catholic churches are children of adversity, and their histories are full of unpleasant incidents.

There is nothing in the West to compare so I have to invent a scenario: It is as if Eastern monks and priests had travelled West in the 16th century when there was so much discord, on the verge of the Reformation, and actually fomented trouble in Holland or Germany in order to split the churches there.

It can be imagined that the Bohemians, eager to be free of the Holy Roman Empire would ask to be admitted to the Orthodox church, or the king of Sweden taking his country to Orthodoxy instead of Lutheranism, with the Patriarch of Constantiople gladly accepting their church, then gradually introducing Eastern practices while suppressing Western devotions!

Could anyone imagine the effect it would have on our outlook if southern France and Catalonia had gone Orthodox during the Great Western Schism? Having the Western Gregorian Mass and chants but being obedient to the Patriarch of Antioch or Alexandria?

I think we would see it as a deep wound in the fabric of our church, and wish to heal that unnatural breach. The very existence of such a church body would be considered an insult to some, an “invasion” of sorts because they had not given us the time we needed to heal that terrible issue among ourselves in our own way!

Happily, Patriarchal churches are not inclined to poach on their neighbors flocks.

To his credit (and with a heightened awareness of the pitfalls), Pope John Paul II has recognized this potential problem: The Orthodox church of Macedonia exists in an uncertain state of Canonicity (once the region was directly under the Patriarch of Constantinople, later the Serbs incorporated the territory and eventually the Slavic church there was recognized as part of the Serbian Orthodox church). The Macedonians have declared their own church to be autonomous, a sort of “home rule” and no other Orthodox church will recognise them as such, so recently they approached the Catholic church seeking recognition from Rome!

His Holiness the Pope turned them down.

 

[JW10631]

Catholic-Orthodox unity will not be achieved in our lifetimes. If it happens, it will be two or three hundred years in the future, at least.

Orthodoxy will never accept reunification with the Catholic Church based upon the way the Papacy now runs things. The Catholic Church´s hierarchy would look upon the petty bickering of Orthodox bishops and canonical territories as unfathomable.

Many Orthodox have never forgiven the sack of Constantinople, and continue to be irritated to this day by the existence of the Byzantine Catholic Churches (Ukranian, Ruthenain, Romanian).

It will take a real spirit of forgiveness and desire to do the Lord’s work to repair the split made by men in the Church created by Jesus Christ. Much of Orthodoxy - and Catholicism - is in the Slavic world, and they have long memories.