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Pug
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Oh my! I know *exactly *what you mean!I end up smiling one of those ‘yeah, I know…’ kinda smirks.
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ncjohn
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netmil(name removed by moderator):
Show me something that says it is NOT ok (that isn’t just someone’s opinion), after all of the many, many complaints and letters.
The fact that it is encouraged or mandated in some dioceses says it CANNOT be forbidden or it could not be so encouraged or mandated.
As you yourself have said on many occasions, and we have all acknowledged, it is up to the Bishop with jurisdiction. That in and of itself should make it a non-issue. It’s not our decision to make. Our decision is whether we act charitably toward each other, whatever sign of devotion we might choose.
Peace,
There are many things the priest does in the liturgy that are also done by the people–folded hands, sign of the cross, beating of breast, etc. When it is something that is specific to only the priest, there are documents spelling that out. It is clear that at Mass only the priest (or deacon) can do the gospel and homily, or the blessings, or the consecration, etc, etc.
Show me something that says it is NOT ok (that isn’t just someone’s opinion), after all of the many, many complaints and letters.
The fact that it is encouraged or mandated in some dioceses says it CANNOT be forbidden or it could not be so encouraged or mandated.
As you yourself have said on many occasions, and we have all acknowledged, it is up to the Bishop with jurisdiction. That in and of itself should make it a non-issue. It’s not our decision to make. Our decision is whether we act charitably toward each other, whatever sign of devotion we might choose.
Peace,
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Rennvogel
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As a recent convert, I have been doing it because I thought I was supposed to. It seems that most in the parish I attend do this, though there are those that do not. I have refrained from doing it several times but this makes me feel uncomfortable and a little self conscience. I have come to dread this part of the mass because I feel uncomfortable no matter what I do. I actually would rather not make the gesture or hold hands. However,after reading all your posts I don’t feel quite so bad not doing this.
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ncjohn
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You shouldn’t need to feel uncomfortable if you prefer not to. If nothing else, you might seek out others who prefer not to and sit together.
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supplex
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Interesting discussion. Read Cardinal Ratzinger’s “The Spirit of the Liturgy” recommended by a friend of mine who is a priest. The servant placed his joined hands into the hands of the lord of the estate - an expression of trust and fidelity. He goes on to explain that this tradition is continued in the rite of Holy Orders. See page 204 - fascinating reading. Our Holy Father is awesome. Viva il Papa!
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netmilsmom
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I asked you first
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AltarMan
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When Pope JPII passed, I had a prayer card of him that showed him holding his hands flat much like this:
http://www.holyangels.org/ftp/Pope John Paul II color web.jpg
I wanted to assume this position as an altar server but it was difficult. It is a very humbling and vulnerable feeling position for me.
To commemorate Pope JPII’s passing in my own way I tried again. It was tough for maybe a half-dozen Masses. Now I don’t even think about it anymore until the local (loco?) “liturgist” complains (that it looks too rigid) and I tell her to step-off…
http://www.holyangels.org/ftp/Pope John Paul II color web.jpg
I wanted to assume this position as an altar server but it was difficult. It is a very humbling and vulnerable feeling position for me.
To commemorate Pope JPII’s passing in my own way I tried again. It was tough for maybe a half-dozen Masses. Now I don’t even think about it anymore until the local (loco?) “liturgist” complains (that it looks too rigid) and I tell her to step-off…
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YinYangMom
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netmil(name removed by moderator):
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netmilsmom
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Well, since it is stated to be a priestly gesture in other Vatican documents, the Bishops felt that it was redundant to state it again.
Nothing is to be added so if the laity is never directed to use the position, then for us to use it is an innovation. Silence is truly not an affirmation when it comes to those documents.
As I said before, life would be so much easier if all the Bishops were on the same page with the Vatican.
But things happen slowly. All of the arguments for the laity using the Orans could have been used for Liturgical Dance a few years ago and now this is not allowed.
Trust me, I may have to stop my children and hubby from giggling at people doing the Orans, but I also don’t see it that often in my Historically Catholic church. Visitors tend to drop their hands when no one else is doing it.
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Traditional_Ang
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Rennvogel:
I thank you for a good short post which will allow for some examination of the problem.
The gesture we are talking about is a “Praise Position” that was common for many in the early Church and many who felt a need to express their desire for union with our Lord and their love for Him. As long as that is what they are doing, I think this is best treated under the Augustinian rubrik, “In things that are not essential to the Faith, let there be liberty; but in all things, there must be CHARITY.”
The reasons this is controversial are twofold. The first one is that the separation between the priests and the Faithful have been torn down. First, we have torn down the ALTER RAIL and the HIGH ALTER, eliminating the physical separation between the priest and the people. Second, we’ve allowed non-vested people into the Sanctuary, who then remain there (I was part of a youth choir which spent the entire Mass inside of the Sanctuary), further eliminating that separation. And, Then there are the Extradinary Ministers of the Most Holy Eucharist - In Many parishes, they neither vest nor are they ever not used. Not to mention the fact that Priests are often not addressed as “Father”, but by by their first name…
You add to the above the lack of catechesis concerning the Sacerdotal nature of the Priesthood, so the most Catholics are never taught the truth about how the Priest stands in the place of Christ offering Christ to the Father, and you have the fact that many Catholics then question the need for a periest and complain about things such as Alter Rails and Confessionals.
In a climate like that, I could see where people who want to preserve the Priesthood against the onslaughts of the devil would grab onto something like this.
The Second Point is that people are saying that this “Praise Position” has become mandetory in a few Dioceses, and that others are feeling extreme pressure to conform to a perceived norm.
Those should never be the case. This is something that one should do because one is feeling very open and moved to do so, and that the normal prayer position (hands folded in front) is just not adaquate to express the gratitude and praise for God gushing out of one’s heart (Fr. Solanis used to do this for hours, as did St. Fancis of Assisi, who was never ordained.).
If someone should do this during Mass (during the Lord’s Prayer or after receiving our Lord in the Eucharist). it should be to express love, gratitude and joy, never the agenda of, “I’m just like the Priest,” and it should not disrupt the Sacred Liturgy any more than a baby crying a couple of pews away.
We need to insure that the Priests teach the proper theology about the Sacerdotal nature of the Priesthood, that Alter Rails and High Alters and other physical separators are brought in wenever possible, and that Congregations and Priests get used to the longer times it takes to “Commune” everyone when only Sacred Ministers distribute our Lord at regular Sunday Masses.
If we do that, we’ll wonder why we spent 30 posts talking, and sometimes arguing, about whether or not it was OK for someone to pray the Lord’s Prayer with his or her hands in the “orante position”.
At least that’s my opinion.
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
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John:You shouldn’t need to feel uncomfortable if you prefer not to. If nothing else, you might seek out others who prefer not to and sit together.
That just might be good advice.
If I’m feeling particulary moved, I would do the position (provided it was allowed) even if I were the only person doing it.
At the same time, If I really don’t feel like it (very irreverent Mass, our Lord treated like you know what, and the Gospel not preached), I don’t care if the entire Congregation is doing it and they have someone holding a gun to my head, I’M NOT DOING IT!
This is something people should do because they feel a need to express their love and gratitude to our Lord, and the normal way just isn’t doing it!
If we save it for those occasions, and do PROPER CATECHESIS about the nature of the priesthood, including bringing back the physical barriers (discussed previous post), this will have an appropriate place in the “Praise Language” of the Church as it did in the first few Centuries of the churches existence, and we won’t be having discussions such as this one.
Again, just my opinion.
In Christ, Michael
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YinYangMom
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I like not having the barriers between the priest and the people though…
I understand the respect thing, and certainly the catechesis needs to be improved, direct and taught to all participating in Mass…
but whenever I’ve seen movies about Jesus among the people, when I reflect upon the image of the Last Supper, of Jesus speaking to a gathering of people when the children approach Him, when I read the passages in the Bible where Jesus speaks to groups of followers…all of that conjures up a personal Jesus in my mind.
If Jesus Himself enjoyed being among the people as He taught and ate with the people, so should, imo (and apparently the Vatican’s) should a priest.
Just as in Christ’s presence His followers would treat Him reverently and respectfully even though He’s among them, so too, should we always treat our priests, especially during Mass.
But consider that elevating the priest to a stature equal to Jesus the Risen Lord (untouchable, unapproachable, unless, of course, He moved among us) through the Mass pretty much gave rise to the massive egos many corrupt priest, bishops and cardinals were guilty of for quite a long time in Church history. As men, their egos failed them, sadly.
The problem is the catechesis did not follow the changes of Vatican II so the void was filled with gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the changes. This resulted in a lack of respect for the office of Priest, especially during the Liturgy and this needs to be remedied, and I trust will be soon.
We don’t need to go back entirely to the rails and high altars in order to restore the proper respect to Priests in Persona Christe. We need proper education, consistent expectations and discipline over abuses.
Of course, I also want the Latin Mass forever available to anyone. It is part of our history as a Church, as a People of God and I don’t ever want to lose access to that.
I understand the respect thing, and certainly the catechesis needs to be improved, direct and taught to all participating in Mass…
but whenever I’ve seen movies about Jesus among the people, when I reflect upon the image of the Last Supper, of Jesus speaking to a gathering of people when the children approach Him, when I read the passages in the Bible where Jesus speaks to groups of followers…all of that conjures up a personal Jesus in my mind.
If Jesus Himself enjoyed being among the people as He taught and ate with the people, so should, imo (and apparently the Vatican’s) should a priest.
Just as in Christ’s presence His followers would treat Him reverently and respectfully even though He’s among them, so too, should we always treat our priests, especially during Mass.
But consider that elevating the priest to a stature equal to Jesus the Risen Lord (untouchable, unapproachable, unless, of course, He moved among us) through the Mass pretty much gave rise to the massive egos many corrupt priest, bishops and cardinals were guilty of for quite a long time in Church history. As men, their egos failed them, sadly.
The problem is the catechesis did not follow the changes of Vatican II so the void was filled with gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the changes. This resulted in a lack of respect for the office of Priest, especially during the Liturgy and this needs to be remedied, and I trust will be soon.
We don’t need to go back entirely to the rails and high altars in order to restore the proper respect to Priests in Persona Christe. We need proper education, consistent expectations and discipline over abuses.
Of course, I also want the Latin Mass forever available to anyone. It is part of our history as a Church, as a People of God and I don’t ever want to lose access to that.
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netmilsmom
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I’m gonna give a big AMEN to that!!!
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ncjohn
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netmil(name removed by moderator):
Me too!I’m gonna give a big AMEN to that!!!
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HagiaSophia
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There’s a time and a place…and our worship service is in many ways symbolic and represenative of ancient worship in the Temples which connects the Old and New Testaments. The rail was to separate the Holy of Holies, similar to instructions received by the Jews in constructing their great temple. An area so sacred that only the high priests could enter. The special vestments, the separations of parts of the Temple were all prescribed and thus approaching God had a mystery, a sacredness, a meeting of the profane with the sacred mysteries.
Ritual and symbology play very important parts psychologically in preparing the mind and soul to commune with the supernatural.
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YinYangMom
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Yes I appreciate that so very much about the Tridentine that’s why I pray Pope Benedict will make it possible for any priest/parish able and willing to offer such masses to do so without having to get express permission from the bishop. I don’t ever want any future generations of Catholics to be unable to experience the richness of the Church’s history. Both NO and Tridentine should always be available, imho. But in the end, God’s will will be done, not mine, so I just keep praying about it.
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Shiann
Guest
It was my understanding (forgive me I haven’t found the reference) that the Orans position is used by the priest to present our collective prayers at certain times during the Mass on behalf of all.
Since the priest was the only one (prior to Vatican II) to say the Our Father, he assumed the Orans position to offer the collective prayers of the Faithfull.
So the Orans position to me, is a position of authority. It is used only by someone able to offer the prayers of the laity during Mass. Even if we are all saying the prayer together- the Orans has a specific meaning, and I feel it a bit arrogant on my part to assume that position as well.
Since the priest was the only one (prior to Vatican II) to say the Our Father, he assumed the Orans position to offer the collective prayers of the Faithfull.
So the Orans position to me, is a position of authority. It is used only by someone able to offer the prayers of the laity during Mass. Even if we are all saying the prayer together- the Orans has a specific meaning, and I feel it a bit arrogant on my part to assume that position as well.
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dumspirospero
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dumspirospero
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netmilsmom
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Well said!
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