Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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pnewton said:
I can answer that. This thread is not about Traditional Catholicism. Read the title. This thread was started as an attack on the Mass. Exactly who was “looking for the fight”? You start an argumentative thread and then wonder that arguement takes place?

Exactly what did you think would take place with this thread you started? Playful bashing of the Mass among traditionalists?
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Again with the “attack” type words. Just how was the article an attack? Point out where the author made claims that can’t be supported. Although satirical, the article is nothing more than a statement of the obvious.

Not everyone is spiritually fulfilled by the NO. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid Mass. It also doesn’t mean the two forms are the same. Example: up here in Canada we play football with three downs, twelve men on a longer and wider field among other differences to the American game. Although it is still football many people prefer one style over the other.

If the NO was revised with many things omitted: Gloria, first and second readings, Creed, Offeratory procession, sign of peace, and other changes would you miss the NO as it is now?

If everyone obeyed what the Holy See instructed we wouldn’t have Communion in the hand while standing. So this claim that everyone should be spiritually fulfilled by the NO doesn’t hold up.
 
Jerry_Parker said:
The attitude that just because the Novus Ordo offers enough to qualify as a real Eucharist (which it does) does not respond to the aspiration of wanting to offer up to God the best possible of our human efforts and potentials, artistic, spiritual, and otherwise. The Masses of 1962 and of 1965 were condusive to liturgical excellence. The 1970 liturgy is conducive to little more than mere efficiency,

**Those who never have known the glories of the 1962 Missale Romanum are not in much of a position to pontificate on the superiority of the Novus Ordo. For those who did know the old liturgy at its fullest, the 40th anniversary of the N.O. is not an occasion for celebration, but for regret for so much that was precious that has been washed away, cast aside, wasted. Mere sufficiency is not for what the human heart aspires most worthily. One has to put up with the N.O., in order to be faithful as a Catholic, but knowing that one lives with it in an impoverished age, on a bleak and blasted hearth. **When one lives in an isolated, remote, and rather small town in the Abitibi, there is no resort possible to the provisions of Benedict XVI’s provisions for the 1962 liturgy. Hereabouts it is gone, vanished, and banished, and that, alas, is it. I seek spiritual beauty and depth in traditional devotions, not finding anything but the bare essentials of the Eucharist in its public “celebration” to give devotions the particular sustenance that only the Holy Communion can provide as a grounding for them.

Pax, Jerry Parker
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Jerry Parker, you express your thougjts (& those of many others) beautifully.
 
Ockham said:
Again with the “attack” type words. Just how was the article an attack?.
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My point was this was not an article about Traditional Catholicism. It is about** the liturgy**. Yet you did not start this in Liturgy and Sacraments, did you? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Find that phrase (NO) in the article. We here are not so blind as you may think.

Hey, you either get it or you don’t.
 
pnewton said:
I can answer that. This thread is not about Traditional Catholicism. Read the title. This thread was started as an attack on the Mass. Exactly who was “looking for the fight”? You start an argumentative thread and then wonder that arguement takes place?

No, I don’t wonder at all. In order to find this thread, one had to open the “Traditional Catholic” forum.
Exactly what did you think would take place with this thread you started? Playful bashing of the Mass among traditionalists?
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This thread would have been locked many pages ago if started in the Liturgy forum. I started a thread on the other article circulating at the time “Latin Mass Appeal” in the Liturgy section and it got locked on page 2.

What phrase are you looking for?

The Latin Mass is a key element of Traditional Catholicism.

You still haven’t explained how the article is an “attack” on the NO.
 
Jerry_Parker said:
Those who never have known the glories of the 1962 Missale Romanum are not in much of a position to pontificate on the superiority of the Novus Ordo. For those who did know the old liturgy at its fullest, the 40th anniversary of the N.O. is not an occasion for celebration, but for regret for so much that was precious that has been washed away, cast aside, wasted.
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You take much upon yourself in thinking you can in any way speak for any significant segment of those of us who grew up pre-Vatican II. I daresay that that the overwhelming majority would fully and completely disagree with you on this. When our diocese offered availability of the TLM many years back it had a couple hundred people show up in the beginning, mostly younger people and NOT those who had grown up with it. Within 6 months it was down to a small handful attending at all and it died a quiet death until the Pope mandated the availability again.
The Masses of 1962 and of 1965 were condusive to liturgical excellence. The 1970 liturgy is conducive to little more than mere efficiency,
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And this is where the great problem is. There are just far too many of those attached to the TLM who cannot conceive that someone else can find the Pauline Mass just as glorious and just as conducive to their spiritual fulfilment. The fact that individuals find one or the other superior in meeting their spiritual needs does not in any way translate as either being objectively superior. The very fact that we have such a multitude of liturgies within the Catholic Church, when adding in all the variations of the Eastern liturgies, speaks to the fact that the Church does not see any problem in diversity of our worship.

As Ockham noted in his football example, it’s not a matter of better or worse, just different.Hopefully we will eventually get past this need to bash the totally legitimate ways other people worship within the Church. Hopefully as the TLM becomes more available and everyone who prefers one can find one we can be at peace with each other without having to play this “my Mass is better than yours” game.

Peace.
 
When you see the liberties that can be taken with the N.O., you appreciate the rigidity of the TLM. It stops the priest and laity getting inventive. You can abide in peace.
 
ncjohn said:
You take much upon yourself in thinking you can in any way speak for any significant segment of those of us who grew up pre-Vatican II. I daresay that that the overwhelming majority would fully and completely disagree with you on this. When our diocese offered availability of the TLM many years back it had a couple hundred people show up in the beginning, mostly younger people and NOT those who had grown up with it. Within 6 months it was down to a small handful attending at all and it died a quiet death until the Pope mandated the availability again.

And this is where the great problem is. There are just far too many of those attached to the TLM who cannot conceive that someone else can find the Pauline Mass just as glorious and just as conducive to their spiritual fulfilment. The fact that individuals find one or the other superior in meeting their spiritual needs does not in any way translate as either being objectively superior. The very fact that we have such a multitude of liturgies within the Catholic Church, when adding in all the variations of the Eastern liturgies, speaks to the fact that the Church does not see any problem in diversity of our worship.

As Ockham noted in his football example, it’s not a matter of better or worse, just different.Hopefully we will eventually get past this need to bash the totally legitimate ways other people worship within the Church. Hopefully as the TLM becomes more available and everyone who prefers one can find one we can be at peace with each other without having to play this “my Mass is better than yours” game.

Peace.
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The Eastern Liturgies are older than the TLM. and please don’t even think about putting the NO Mass in the same league as the Eastern Liturgies. Only the TLM can compare in beauty and rubrics. Many Eastern Orthodox Christians have already commented on the NO Mass, and they were not to positive. If you ask converts to the Orthodox faith from Roman Catholicism you will find that most converted do to the liturgical changes made to the Mass after Vatican 2.
 
Layman said:
When you see the liberties that can be taken with the N.O., you appreciate the rigidity of the TLM. It stops the priest and laity getting inventive. You can abide in peace.
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I remember that many were so peaceful, they actually went to sleep.Nothing like a snoring man sitting next to you.

I even remember some of the nuns nodding off sometimes.
 
Indyann said:
I remember that many were so peaceful, they actually went to sleep.Nothing like a snoring man sitting next to you.

I even remember some of the nuns nodding off sometimes.
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I guess they were snoring for thousands of years, before the Bugninni Mass.
 
Indyann said:
I remember that many were so peaceful, they actually went to sleep.Nothing like a snoring man sitting next to you.

I even remember some of the nuns nodding off sometimes.
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I wonder how many people are sleeping with their eyes open during a NO. Are people actually “participating” or are they just going through the motions, mindlessly reciting memorized portions?

My Grandfather used to fall asleep saying his rosary. I suppose we need a more active participation version of that too.
 
Indyann said:
I remember that many were so peaceful, they actually went to sleep.Nothing like a snoring man sitting next to you.

I even remember some of the nuns nodding off sometimes.
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LOL. So it being a Latin Mass makes them snore more?
People nod off during any kind of religious service. When I was a young and ambitious Baptist preacher I banged the pulpit once and almost gave the old sleeping lady in the back pew a heart attack.
 
Indyann said:
I remember that many were so peaceful, they actually went to sleep.Nothing like a snoring man sitting next to you.

I even remember some of the nuns nodding off sometimes.
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Oh, c’mon. First, you put down the 7-minute Mass.:coolinoff: Then now you say it is too long. :yawn: Like the OF doesn’t have any quiet periods or bad readers where you can doze off? :sleep:

I only wish the nuns nodded off when I was lighting the candles. 🙂
 
Ockham said:
I wonder how many people are sleeping with their eyes open during a NO. Are people actually “participating” or are they just going through the motions, mindlessly reciting memorized portions?

My Grandfather used to fall asleep saying his rosary. I suppose we need a more active participation version of that too.
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I suppose the ‘mindlessly reciting memorised portions’ never happened or happens in the TLM? If not, it would only be because at times the laity don’t EVEN recite any portions, in any manner whatsoever.

If people say (or hear) the same prayers, the same responses to them, the same Gloria, Creed, Sanctus and Our Father every Sunday week in week out, it’s human nature that some of the time some of them may wander a little in their attention. There is nothing about the TLM that makes it one whit less susceptible to it, less susceptible to rote recitation or non-participation by laity, than any other form of liturgy.

And I say that without a trace of an ‘it is in Latin, of course people don’t understand it as well’ attitude, nor a ‘the prayers are utterly fixed, no options, so of course it is more rote’ attitude either - I am not prey to those sort of stereotypes.
 
ProVobis said:
Oh, c’mon. First, you put down the 7-minute Mass.:coolinoff: Then now you say it is too long. :yawn: Like the OF doesn’t have any quiet periods or bad readers where you can doze off? :sleep:

I only wish the nuns nodded off when I was lighting the candles. 🙂
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What in the world are you talking about? I didn’t put down anything. I merely stated what I recalled.

Is there such a thing as a 7-minute Mass? Didn’t know about them, so how can I say it’s too long.:confused:
 
Indyann said:
What in the world are you talking about? I didn’t put down anything.
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I didn’t mean you you. Merely the royal you, youse, you know, the critics of the TLM who claimed the 7-minute Mass was an abuse. English has a major problem addressing the second person. Dominus tecum.
 
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