Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

[ProVobis]

I’m missing the point, probably, but who cares whether the Catholic Church is being ridiculed? It’s supposed to be ridiculed by “the world.”

Yes, but ridiculed by its own members?

 

[LilyM]

Yes, but ridiculed by its own members?

The church in every age has been attacked and, yes, ridiculed, by those who call themselves its members. Why do you think we have had to have regular Councils, encyclicals, catechisms and so on - what good do you think those are for people who are OUTSIDE the Church? Of course they happen in response to attacks and disagreements from within.

 

[ncjohn]

Both above opinions are easy to have when it’s your preferred form of liturgy that’s “Ordinary”. When your Mass is relogated to “Extraordinary” status and effectly banned for nearly forty years see if you are as charitable.

So then, as I understand it, your position here is that the Church took something away from you that you feel you were entitled to and you now have the right to “get even”. And that getting even legitimizes attacking fellow Catholics who had nothing to do with taking anything away from you and whose only “sin” is to hold a different worship preference from yours.

I’m really sorry to say this but that comes across about the same as having the boss yell at you at work and going home and kicking the dog, or maybe slapping the wife or kids around, because it’s the only place to let off your anger.

If you don’t like Traditional Catholic opinion then stay out of the Traditional Catholic forum.

Make you a deal. You stick to being a proponent of the TLM without feeling a need to attack the Pauline Mass and we’ll won’t feel a need to defend wrongful accusations. I’ll even join you in continuing to pray for wider availability of the TLM so that all who want it can have it.

Does that work for you? Or is the ongoing need to try to drag the Church’s Ordinary Form into the mud and splinter the Body of Christ in some warped attempt to “get even” going to continue to prevail? Could we just for a while try a little “peace on earth and good will toward men?” What a present that would make to present at the manger.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

ncjohn wrote:
"Make you a deal. You stick to being a proponent of the TLM without feeling a need to attack the Pauline Mass and we’ll won’t feel a need to defend wrongful accusations. I’ll even join you in continuing to pray for wider availability of the TLM so that all who want it can have it. "

Otherwise, there ain’t no way you’re gonna pray for wider availability of the TLM?

 

[LilyM]

When your Mass is relogated to “Extraordinary” status and effectly banned for nearly forty years see if you are as charitable.

YOUR Mass? I’ve certainly never in all my years on this planet, heard a Novus Ordo massgoer, extraordinary minister or priest, call the Holy Sacrifice ‘YOUR’ Mass or “MY” Mass or any other term that implies ownership of the liturgy. What a revolting sentiment.

It’s Christ’s Mass, the Church’s Mass, given as His and Her greatest treasure to us, the faithful. Moreover, if you can wrap your head around this because B16 said it, it’s one and the SAME Mass - one and the SAME sacrifice - whether TLM or NO. Just two different forms. Neither of which belongs to you or me or anyone.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

LilyM wrote:
" it’s one and the SAME Mass - one and the SAME sacrifice - whether TLM or NO. Just two different forms. Neither of which belongs to you or me or anyone."

So, even though the NO has had (and to this very day still has) clown and puppet “Masses,” presiders who use coffee cups for a chalice (I’ve seen this), and not infrequent flushings of unused communion wafers and wine down the toilet, and, what is more, the TLM never has instances of such sacrileges, still “it’s one and the SAME Mass - one and the SAME sacrifice”? The TLM specifically recognizes that Christ’s sacrifice, while accomplished for the redemption of all, will only be salvifically efficacious for those who die in the state of sanctifying grace.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

Sorry, LilyM, I had to leave my desk momentarily and mistakenly submitted my post before I was finished trying to make a point. The point is that the main thrust of the consecration of the NO service is that Christ’s sacrifice was for ALL, not MANY, as the TLM stipulates. That’s a BIG difference (as some will unfortunately discover one day).

 

[LilyM]

Sorry, LilyM, I had to leave my desk momentarily and mistakenly submitted my post before I was finished trying to make a point. The point is that the main thrust of the consecration of the NO service is that Christ’s sacrifice was for ALL, not MANY, as the TLM stipulates. That’s a BIG difference (as some will unfortunately discover one day).

Even Thomas Aquinas would disagree - certainly it will only be efficacious for some, but in that Christ certainly desired to save all, and His sacrifice was sufficient to save all, it is quite permissible to say, according to good St Thomas, that it was indeed a sacrifice ‘for all’. In fact St Paul says the same, no? “Once, and FOR ALL”?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Even Thomas Aquinas would disagree - certainly it will only be efficacious for some, but in that Christ certainly desired to save all, and His sacrifice was sufficient to save all, it is quite permissible to say, according to good St Thomas, that it was indeed a sacrifice ‘for all’. In fact St Paul says the same, no? “Once, and FOR ALL”?

Jesus said for many. i believe the new Missal has corrected that. now is going to be for many. no need to fight over this.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

My experience with those who opt for the OF is that a great many of them want to think that everyone will go to Heaven, that people are inherently good and that if we just care enough and smile enough then everything will be all right—in short, that “yes we can!” make the world a Utopia. I said “a great many,” and I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush here and offend OF adherents who most emphatically do not share those utopian fantasies.

 

[ncjohn]

ncjohn wrote:
"Make you a deal. You stick to being a proponent of the TLM without feeling a need to attack the Pauline Mass and we’ll won’t feel a need to defend wrongful accusations. I’ll even join you in continuing to pray for wider availability of the TLM so that all who want it can have it. "

Otherwise, there ain’t no way you’re gonna pray for wider availability of the TLM?

Wow, less than 10 posts into a new membership and already making snide comments about something I have been publicly supporting for years.

Welcome to the forum. It’s nice to see someone else seeking peace.

 

[Ockham]

So then, as I understand it, your position here is that the Church took something away from you that you feel you were entitled to and you now have the right to “get even”. And that getting even legitimizes attacking fellow Catholics who had nothing to do with taking anything away from you and whose only “sin” is to hold a different worship preference from yours.

You and Lily blow things out of proportion. I’m not “attacking” the Mass nor do I take ownership over it. The facts are the Novus Ordo is a less reverent form of worship, catechesis, devotions, and practices all declined since the misinterpreted “spirit of V2”, and our Church has suffered as a consequence. This isn’t about my personal preference, “attacking” or any other diversionary tactic you throw out there. This is about Traditional Catholics’ desire for a restoration from the damage done by the past forty years.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

ncjohn wrote:

“Wow, less than 10 posts into a new membership and already making snide comments about something I have been publicly supporting for years.”

Just conveying that which I’ve experienced with the NO folks. I’m not making it up. It’s not that I want to think of them as utopians—they actually are utopians (not all, as I said, but a good many of them). You can refer to facts as “snide comments” all you want, and it won’t change the truth of what I say. I’m not in any way demanding that you believe as I do. I’m just saying that the NO experience is not, to me, continuous with pre-Vatican II Catholic tradition, and the TLM is. I get the impression (even after a mere “10 posts”) that such a view of the NO bothers you. And why would it bother you? Hmmm? If you’ve got the real deal with the NO then we little old TLM’ers shouldn’t be considered a problem. Right? And yet, your posts reveal that you are bothered by the TLM. That’s your affair, and I’m sure you feel that you have your reasons for feeling that way. As far as my alleged “snide comments,” you didn’t list any of them so I’m not sure precisely what you are referring to. God commands that I have charity towards everyone, including those who think that the NO is the greatest thing since baked bread.

 

[Bebekoualy]

I like both Masses. And Jesus does too.

 

[peary]

Novus Ordo has been in a continual mid-life crisis since it was ‘born’.

 

[vz71]

I like both Masses. And Jesus does too.

I’m glad someone out there feels the same way.

I see a problem both ways.
Novus Ordo attendees have an unfortunate tendency towards irreverence.
But the people that only attend the TLM seem to be susceptible to pride.

Seems to me that those that are adopting these worse tendencies are missing the point altogether.

It is fortunate that the majority on either side doesn’t.

 

[Filioque]

What a hoot, I do enjoy the tounge in cheek humor of the author of this piece. Have for some time now. He makes me laugh.

What is sad is that Catholics would line up and denounce each other for what Liturgical Rite they assist at in the Worship of God. When mentioning that I attended Eastern Rite Catholic Parishes, I’ve been informed by Latin Rite Catholics that I need to join the Catholic Church and accept the Pope. When I assist at the TLM in one of the local parishes, I’ve been told I should not be part of the Lefebvre Scism. Niether being true, I educate people when that is possible, and when they are so entrenched in and in love with the ignorance of their position I simply pray, as did our Lord, “Ut unum sint”. No need to cause further rifts, when our Lord and Lady can work on their hearts.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

Ockham wrote:
"‘Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial. We progress by means of trial. No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after a victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations.’ St. Augustine "

That sums up the difference between the NO and the TLM better than I could ever say. When is the last time anyone heard these thoughts of St. Augustine expressed from an NO pulpit? (Correction: there aren’t that many pulpits in NO parishes.) But these sentiments are at the core of Catholic teaching and tradition: our life on earth is a warfare against Satan who seeks to drag our souls down into eternal damnation, but that if we overcome Satan then we gain eternal life in Heaven (I personally doubt that very many NO clerics even believe this). The Church has in the past always taught that we are to cheerfully take up arms and fight as soldiers of Christ—that this is no springtime-of-vatican-II picnic, but rather a test to see if we will, with Christ’s Grace, make it to Heaven.

 

[paperwight]

" not infrequent flushings of unused communion wafers and wine down the toilet, and, what is more, the TLM never has instances of such sacrileges, .

Since you use the words ‘wafer’ and ‘wine’, I assume you are referring to unconsecrated elements?

In which case, I’m a bit puzzled as to your horror of this, and referring to it as sacrilege.

Someone on another thread said that in Italy (I think) it was possible to buy the wafer scraps for a snack - it’s only a kind of bland bread, and wine is just wine.

I admit it might cause scandal to fkush them away, if the onlooker didn’t know better, and it’s not something I would do as a sacristan, (although I often have to tip unused wine down the sink as the priests say it’s not worth putting back in the bottle and risking contaminating the contents, particularly in warm weather).

But did you mean to say Body and Blood, and if so, have you actually seen this flushing away?

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

Consecrated! And no, I did not personally witness it, but several Eucharistic Ministers did and reported it. The practice was quietly discontinued, we were told. As far as unconsecrated species goes, I thought it went without saying that no great travesty would result from flushing said species down the tubes. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my mistake in nomenclature.