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pnewton
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This subforum is for discussion of traditional catholic spirituality. Now if running down the spirituality of others is a part of traditional spirituality…
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jackinbox
Guest
But they are unaware. Most of my Catholic friends look at me as if I’m from another planet when I tell them I attend TLM.
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LilyM
Guest
Doesn’t surprise me a bit, assuming that you use the term ‘TLM’. I certainly didn’t know it by that name until recent years, but I certainly knew there were places where Mass was said in Latin.
On the other hand, the looks may not be because none of them know what the TLM is, they just might not understand the attraction because they don’t feel it themselves. Rather like if I said that I studied quantum mechanics for recreation or something.
Dare I say that if I tried to explain the attraction a reverent NO has for me you (or lots of your TLM devotee friends at least) might start getting exactly the same look. I know, because I’ve tried to on these fora.
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Hotchkiss
Guest
Me too!
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marlo
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I would say that the Novus Ordo is very convenient, the short mass, the informal clothing’s, and no theology sermons (sometimes) of the priest. In my view, this is very appropriate for very busy people who needs to go and fullfil to their sunday obligation and do other task after.
However, i would like to see, the TLM in the vernacular with simple songs, not the long musics that take minutes to complete.
However, i would like to see, the TLM in the vernacular with simple songs, not the long musics that take minutes to complete.
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Ockham
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aicirt
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Might be a help if churches printed in their bulletins where the TLM is being held. After today’s Mass, a woman was telling us her husband doesn’t go to Mass unless it is a TLM and she did not know of any in the area. I told her where one was held on Sundays. She should not have to rely on a chance encounter to know where there is a TLM.
Four strangers sat having coffee and the subject of the NO, and lack of statues came up…slowly because people are not sure how their objections will be accepted. None appreciated the lack of statues in today’s churches.
Hymns…lovely but most have got to be Protestant. Looking at the dates they were written they could not be Catholic because we never sang them in the old TLM. I like “Amazing Grace”, but what happened to our Catholic hymns?
Four strangers sat having coffee and the subject of the NO, and lack of statues came up…slowly because people are not sure how their objections will be accepted. None appreciated the lack of statues in today’s churches.
Hymns…lovely but most have got to be Protestant. Looking at the dates they were written they could not be Catholic because we never sang them in the old TLM. I like “Amazing Grace”, but what happened to our Catholic hymns?
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ProVobis
Guest
Then it wouldn’t be the “TLM” anymore. Can’t have that.
And the music you seem not to appreciate is the Gregorian Chant. This is very precise and you don’t want to change it.And most "TLM"s (read Low Masses) don’t have any “songs,” save maybe a “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” at the very end. Just like many OF Masses held during the week.
But it’s the EF now; let’s respect the Pope’s wishes in calling the 1962 Missal that.
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LilyM
Guest
Uh huh. So the fact that the NO was brought in the way it was 40 years ago makes it OK to do the same now but in reverse - ie impose TLMs willy nilly on people who don’t want one - or don’t even know what a TLM is?
And a change of a whole hour in Mass time. Oh dear. How dare there be such a thing as change.
For the record my parish changed the time of its main NO on Sunday mornings a few months back as well - and I’ve had other experiences in past parishes where Mass times have been altered as well. I suppose you’re going to tell me it’s because someone wants it to be more difficult for us to attend the Ordinary Form are you?
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John_Grudzien
Guest
I really WOULD like to find a reverent NO Mass in my area. Every one I’ve ever attended makes a big show of “THE PEOPLE”, but very little reverence towards Our Lord. When will people learn that HE is the FOCUS of the Mass. That’s the point that I think that most adherents of the NO miss. TLM was ENTIRELY focused on HIM. Priest and congregation faced towards him IN UNISON! THAT is what I miss today. Too much focus on the people and the Word, not enough on Our Lord’s Presence.:nope:
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LilyM
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In other words given your druthers you’d still prefer a TLM. In other words the NO is still intrinsically inferior even when reverently celebrated, being inherently more ‘focused on the people’. In other words you’d still look at me like I was from another planet if I expressed a preference for the NO - in fact your attitude is very much just that.
Seems to me when a man is standing up in front of everyone else at the altar doing and saying stuff, the focus is always going to be very much on him, whether he faces you or not. One’s attention will be naturally drawn to his movements and words, like I said whether he faces you and speaks to you or not. I find this to be the case with the TLM too - we’re visual creatures, and the visual we get by far the most of at Mass is of the priest, whether it’s his back or his front.
As if paying a bit of attention to people automatically excludes the possibility of focus on God anyway, when the contrary is true - Jesus said where we gather in His name He is present, so there’s no either/or in the case.
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ProVobis
Guest
Good timing. I just went to the noon OF and we were told no priest was available today. Instead a communion service. Maybe soon this will be the third form.
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aicirt
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That’s exactly the way I felt Sunday. The bread and wine are being turned into the Body and Blood. There should be total adoration. There was just too much going on and much had to do with the congregation and not about God.
I still don’t understand why there should be such difficulty in offering both Masses on Sunday.
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Layman
Guest
I don’t think this is so. We are conditioned to look at people who are looking at us. A man on a stage facing us, moving around, becomes a focus of attention. I think it’s human instinct. A person facing away from you in the street is not a potential threat or opportunity; they’re not so interesting. You are going to look at someone facing you, looking towards you; what are they up to?
The priest facing the altar and away from us makes him performing an operation for us. His robes hide his figure, his face is turned away. He is making an offering.
With the priest versus-populum and using an altar table, the connotation is of something like a cooking lesson; a performance for our benefit.
I don’t know why we need to see the priest in this way. What’s the benefit? We’re not going to be doing what he does, at home.
I understand versus-populum and table altars were not the intention of those who created the N.O.; priests just did these things. It’s a fashion. I think the intention was to get the laity more involved but that creates a tension, as the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice directed towards Jesus, who traditionally was in the Orient (symbolic East) and the tabernacle.
It also has the unfortunate connotation of making the Mass more of a communal meal. Combined with EMHCs, CITH, removal of altar rails and unvested lay lectors the trend was to make the Mass more mundane i.e. it’s supposed to be an awesome sacred rite but there’s your neighbour in an overcoat handing out the Host.
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aicirt
Guest
youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
There is another one about liturgical abuses you may look at too. These “masses” did not happen when we only had TLM. That’s a fact.
How any priest could allow these things to happen is beyond me much less any Catholic taught his religion should sit there and not get up and leave. Most look to be 65 and older apparently experiencing a group senior momemt of bad judgement.
There is another one about liturgical abuses you may look at too. These “masses” did not happen when we only had TLM. That’s a fact.
How any priest could allow these things to happen is beyond me much less any Catholic taught his religion should sit there and not get up and leave. Most look to be 65 and older apparently experiencing a group senior momemt of bad judgement.
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Layman
Guest
I’ve seen it before. It’s hard to know how … personalised … the N.O. has become as normally Mass is not videoed. It could be widespread or it could just be a few daft instances like that video.
What’s more annoying for me is that there seems to be a trend to ‘de-mystify’ the Mass by adding mundane elements and removing sacred (set apart) ones. Then how are you supposed to experience awe and reverence when the setting and performers are working against that? It’s perverse!
What’s more annoying for me is that there seems to be a trend to ‘de-mystify’ the Mass by adding mundane elements and removing sacred (set apart) ones. Then how are you supposed to experience awe and reverence when the setting and performers are working against that? It’s perverse!
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Ockham
Guest
Where is the TLM being imposed on people?
You seem very sensitive and defensive on this matter. Any ideas why?
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pnewton
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Not to be too grammatically picky, but Lily never said or even insinuated that the TLM is being imposed on anyone. She just said that a previous method of changing things (that most traditionists think was too extreme) in no way justifies repeating the same method. Anyone who suggests that such a method of returning the TLM would be great is certainly entitled to that opinion, but they would have no moral ground then for criticizing the way things changed 40 years ago. That would be hypocricy; a violation of the Golden Rule.
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jeanannemarie
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It is still my humble opinion that people who are so strongly against the TLM are people who want to to hang on to their perceived control in the Mass, as in reading, handing out the hosts, and performing musical numbers, etc;. Just MY two cents! Only a hunch on my part.
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pnewton
Guest
While everyone is entitle to an opinion, we must be careful in how we deal with our negative opinions.
From the Catechism:
*rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
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*To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.** I only know few people who serve well enough to understand motivation. The one’s I do know serve the Church in all areas only for the noblest of reason. Then again I never met anyone who had enough an opinion about the TLM to where it could be said they were against it.
From the Catechism:
*rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
2478*
*To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.** I only know few people who serve well enough to understand motivation. The one’s I do know serve the Church in all areas only for the noblest of reason. Then again I never met anyone who had enough an opinion about the TLM to where it could be said they were against it.
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